Technical Question, Early Norge/Griso/Breva

[ChuckH]

Sorting through some old papers and found a Cycle World road test write-up on the '07 Norge and also the '07 Moto Guzzi catalog.  I thought the Norge, Griso and Breva had the same engine but apparently that is not true.

The '07 Norge engine was 1133cc (3.7" X 3.15" Bore/Stroke) where the Griso and Breva engines were 1064cc (3.6" X 3.15").  This info comes from the Moto Guzzi catalog.

The Cycle World article talks about the Norge engine, specifically about the changes to the lube oil system -- larger oil pump with much higher capacity, larger oil radiator, lubricant also used as a coolant in the area of the heads with special spray nozzles, etc.  The result, of course, is that the engine operating temperatures are very much lower and that is very desirable for an air-cooled engine.

So, the question:  Do the engines in the Griso and Breva have the same changes to the lube oil system as the Norge?

Thanks in advance.

[Moto]

I think, but don't know for sure, that CW was discussing changes from the Griso/Breva setup. Here is some description of the differences of the Griso/Breva from the earlier V11, taken from the "Breva 1100 Service Manual," which is actually a set of Powerpoints probably used at the first introduction. It is interesting (at least to me) in its own right, and does not mention changes in spray nozzles cooling the head area.

Engine: Principal Characteristics:

From a technical point of view the engine is very similar to the one already installed to the V11.
A series of optimisations and improvements of single components have been Implemented.

Principal novelties are:

� alternator (is explained later in ELETTROMECHANICAL COMPONENTS)
� oil circuit with pressure valve and external oil filter
� valve retainer with three grooves to allow rotation for even wear of the valve
� longer drive shaft (4 mm)
� new 1st piston ring with L-shape to reduce blow-by gas
� cylinder head and base gasket metallic
� sintered valve seats
� two spark plugs per cylinder (is explained later in IGNITION COMPONENTS)
� new aspect cylinder head covers
� new gearbox

Engine: Lubrication Group:

The circuit is partially redesigned.

The pressure valve is now installed prior to the filter, in case of over pressure
(valve opened), circulates the oil to the intake of the oil pump instead of
releas[ing] the oil to the crankcase, avoiding unwanted emulsi[fication].

The oil filter is now accessible from the outside (exchange every 10.000 km like V11).

A strainer is introduced that improves the intake in any vehicle position and provides particle filtration.

The oil level needs to be checked with the dipstick NOT fixed, different from V11, every 1000 km.

Every 5000 km the drainage tube from the air filter housing needs to be emptied.

[end of excerpt]

I expect dottore Roper can tell us for sure.

Moto

[bad Chad]

The 2v Breva Norge, Griso where all esentially the same,1064cc motor.

They were later bored to something a bit more for the 1200 2v, but still the same.

[Moto]

The 2v Breva Norge, Griso where all esentially the same,1064cc motor.

They were later bored to something a bit more for the 1200 2v, but still the same.

No, you're wrong. The Norge was a different size, as ChuckH said. Here's a quote from the June, 2007, test of the Norge in Motorcycle Consumer News:

And although MCN has tested the Moto Guzzi Breva 1100
(August 2006) and naked Griso 1100 models (December 2006),
this is the first of the new 1200 Guzzis we’ve ridden. Both bored
3.0mm and stroked 1.2mm to achieve its larger size, the new
motor is still plenty smooth running, but seems to have a much
more visceral presence.

Here's where you can read the article: http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/motoguzzinorgejuly07.pdf

I think other changes were also made, in keeping with Guzzi's long pattern of incremental improvements.

Moto

[pete roper]

Early, 2005/6 Breva and Griso were fitted with the old style twin gear oil pump. With the advent of the Norge, or thereabouts, they all swapped to the Gerotor type pump but it was a single vane type and the actual lubrication feed system remained the same. Norge is a bigger motor by slight over bore. Otherwise they are mechanically, but not cosmetically, identical.

The major changes to the whole lubrication system came with the new 8V engine which has two oil pumps, one for high pressure lubrication and one for cooling. Neither circuit is thermostatically controlled leading to monstrous over cooling which is a contributor to the flat tappet failure issue, (But not the main cause per se.) on the 8V the under piston sprays are also fed from the high pressure circuit.

Pete

[bad Chad]

Whoops your right Moto.  I was thinking that the original Norge was a 1100, it was not.

[Moto]

Norge is a bigger motor by slight over bore. Otherwise they are mechanically, but not cosmetically, identical.

Pete

Not so. The strokes (and therefore the crankshafts, at least) also differ:

Griso/Breva 1100:  92 x 80 mm (3.6 x 3.1 in).

Norge: 95 x 81.2 mm (3.74 x 3.20 in).

(From the factory workshop manuals.)

Moto

[pete roper]

Ok, so it was stroked too. I'm on holiday and can't be arsed looking up such stuff. Other than that, still the same old donk.

Pete

[Moto]

Understood. Enjoy your holiday. 

Moto

[tris]

From a manufacturing perspective its a curious thing to do as it just looks like additional cost

What reason would there be for the small difference for what is virtually the same bike

[ChuckH]

The major changes to the whole lubrication system came with the new 8V engine which has two oil pumps, one for high pressure lubrication and one for cooling. Neither circuit is thermostatically controlled leading to monstrous over cooling which is a contributor to the flat tappet failure issue, (But not the main cause per se.) on the 8V the under piston sprays are also fed from the high pressure circuit.  Pete 

So that answers the question -- the major lube system changes came with the 8V engine.  The earlier Norge, Griso and Breva all had iterations of the predecessor system.

Thanks for all of your comments and knowledge.  Ride safe out there.

[Moto]

Here is what the contemporary Rider Magazine (January, 2007) review, written by the late Kevin Ash, had to say:

...the 1,151cc motor-an enlarged version of the Breva 1100 unit-is strong across its rev range and happy to chug away in a high gear from well under 2,000 rpm. The extra 87cc is a consequence of a 3mm wider bore at 95mm and the stroke teased up 1.2mm to 81.2mm. That's not all, as a host of internals (around 60, says Guzzi) are unique to the Norge compared with Breva 1100 components, so it's a comprehensive re- vamp to suit the motor's new role.  [http://ridermagazine.com/2007/01/05/2007-moto-guzzi-norge-1200-road-test/]

So there were about 60 claimed internal changes to the engine. I suspect the Cycle World article was correct about some change in the oiling in the head, since it is hard to imagine making that up.

However, looking through the parts diagrams for the two engines shows that there is little difference in the appearance or count of components (except for the oil pump change that Pete mentioned). The heads are different part numbers, and so are the exhaust valves, but not the inlets. The 60 changes must be of small details on the whole.

Moto

EDIT: This comment from a Road Rider comparison test also mentions engine changes:

Guzzi, boring and stroking its existing 1100 "motore" to 1,151cc for greater horsepower and torque, has incorporated a number of engine improvements. Lighter reciprocating parts and more accurate balancing are said to reduce vibration and improve durability. [http://www.roadrunner.travel/magazine/read/july-august-2008/page/60/]