For the ECU experts

[Kentktk]

Wonder why the problem is with bikes. I never hear anyone complain about their car`s FI or having to get a new map or anything for it. I vaguely remember cars with 4 barrel carbs and they were simply awful. Startups in cold weather were a bitch at times, with flooding it out then having to hold the throttle wide open and crank and crank till it finally started with a black cloud. You never hear anyone say they would want a Rochester Quadrajet back

[beetle]

JB, the 'nitwit' comment wasn't aimed at you.

I'll elucidate. My agreeing to disagree comment was based on your comment:

carburated wins on real world performance.

That is what we must agree to disagree about. Also, I never said that:

a ECU can't be programmed to duplicate a carburetor.

And that is the premise of my argument: it can be.

Let me clear things up to stop further confusion-

1. I believe FI is better than carbs
2. Guzzi factory maps are crap, it's not due to inherent FI issues.
3. A FI bike can get as good fuel economy and smooth running as a carbureted bike if properly tuned.
4. The majority of complaints about FI are because:
a) They don't understand it
b) they modify the bike and it runs worse and they blame the FI
c) the bike is not setup or tuned properly and they blame the FI

[lazlokovacs]

There is also the fact that a large number of FI bikes simply aren't set up right.

Even before I became a convert to the wonders of remapping I would find that the vast majority of bikes that had been serviced elsewhere, especially W5AM equipped machines would be set up completely wrong! Even now, nine years after Guzzi started using the W5AM I'm still getting bikes coming in that have never had the TB's balanced correctly or various bits that shouldn't be fiddled with have been fiddled with.

You can't blame anything to do with the bike for poor running if it isn't tuned properly. End of story. The same is just as true for a bike with points and carburetors.

Pete

just for the record, my calvin is totally stock, the temperature sensor works and TPS is set up perfectly and the stock map is a joke!! sorry for thread drift

[Vasco DG]

I don't doubt the ETS works but is it accurately reflecting the engine temperature?

If you use a scantool to read the perceived ET and then use even your finger to test the *actual* temperature you will probably find a huge discrepancy, especially in colder weather.

Once again the 8V is a different animal due to its sensor location and the way it cools, or over-cools.

Pete

[lazlokovacs]

yes, been through every check with the ETS. At present for extra insurance I've also changed the map so the ETS makes no correction to the fueling once the engine is at operating temperature. I am familiar with the problem, having experienced it on another bike. In this case it just doesn't apply

and I'm not talking about poor running during warm-up or on cold days or anything like that, just normal running under pretty much optimum conditions.

 

[Vasco DG]

So maybe the problem isn't related to the map at all? Perhaps it's a physical/mechanical issue?

Pete

[lazlokovacs]

ok, this is thread drift for sure...

no known mechanical issues with this cali, only 17000km, I've had it from new. Near-on perfect compression both sides, leakdown test all good, tps synched etc

I've known two calivintages and I assure you the maps are terrible!

I do ride fast and far and perhaps they were set up to be 'cruised' rather than 'pushed'

an incredible continent crosser if you can keep it in the sweet spot, but I find it unacceptable that it'll pink at certain rpms.

I've been tuning it a long while and I'm close. Have shared the map with others on this forum and they seemed happy with the map. Again, maybe I'm asking more from my bike.

I know wideband sensors don't tell the whole story, but if you run the stock map with a sensor in there, the readings are way way lean. And the fact that it pinks and that full advance for a dual plugged motor is 43 degrees makes me think Marelli were having an off day (or the emissions guys just happened to be visiting) when they programmed the vintage...

YMMV and thanks for the input, PM me if you have any ideas!

[Idontwantapickle]

UGG, Lectron carbs, the idle circuit will be correct about 2 days a year... Great, if you are going to the salt flats...

I knew you'd appreciate that Mike.  :)

Beetle, (or anyone), can you point me towards someone who could improve the map of my 2v Norge? That bike is 95% there, but it needs a good FI grooming.

Hunter

[beetle]

Hunter, I built a map for a guy with a 2V Sport that may work for you. No guarantees though. Or you could ping Molly on the forum. He's done some good work for the 2V engines.

[pauldaytona]

I knew you'd appreciate that Mike.  :)

Beetle, (or anyone), can you point me towards someone who could improve the map of my 2v Norge? That bike is 95% there, but it needs a good FI grooming.

Hunter

I just send you one, if your email address here works

[Aaron D.]

I think much of the FI harshness at low throttle is due to the butterfly throttle plate, and the big jump in size on throttle bodies vs carbs.

Old Land Rovers were sweet to drive off road with a Solex, but putting on a bigger Rochester would make the response harsh.

[molly]

I knew you'd appreciate that Mike.  :)

Beetle, (or anyone), can you point me towards someone who could improve the map of my 2v Norge? That bike is 95% there, but it needs a good FI grooming.

Hunter

Map sent via email.

[lazlokovacs]

JB

to answer original question,

yes the ECU can be used for ignition only.

Just disconnect all sensors and you will 'fool' the ECU into thinking its at full throttle all the time. It will thus give you the ignition values from the top line of your ignition map.

Its surprisingly as simple as that.

[tris]

My belief, backed up by research, is that most of the high consumption woes, especially on the 2V big blocks, are down to inaccurate input from the engine temperature sensor. This can be addressed, but not cured absolutely, by ensuring the sensor is getting an accurate reading and coupling this with a better map...........

I was peering at mine the other day and saw that my B11 has the plastic "adaptor" between the sensor and the block.

Is it necessary to change that for the metal version before using the grease between the sensor and the adaptor as I've seen you recommend before Pete?

[Muley]

Wow!    to the folks on this board who know this s%*t so well.  I read this entire thread and felt like I was back in college, in a class with a subject (insert whatever you like here) I didn't care about and never understood, but I was required to take it and pass.  In this case I don't have to pass the efi vs carb debate or even understand any of it.

I say we need to focus more on riding and worry less about picking nits.  Let's see, there's a saying about not seeing the forest for the trees

[charlie b]

I'd love to have EFI rather than carbs.  Many of my longer rides go from near sea level to 11,000ft and the carbs just don't do well for that.  They run smooth, but, to not run too lean at lower alt they run rich at higher.  Mileage suffers.

[LaMojo]

John
The next time you are in the area come by and ride my '98 EV.   Mike Haven did a tune up years ago and it made a great improvement over stock setup.  No hesitations, smooth throttle response and gets up to 55 mpg (taking it easy riding back roads).  Now my Quota is quite the opposite of the EV.  The Quota idles rough, jerky throttle input and low gas mileage.  Does fine on the Interstate roads and rides better than the EV so there is a trade off.

[rodekyll]

I'd love to have EFI rather than carbs.  Many of my longer rides go from near sea level to 11,000ft and the carbs just don't do well for that.  They run smooth, but, to not run too lean at lower alt they run rich at higher.  Mileage suffers.

Is this for the T5?

[redrider]

I use each type. I like them for what they do(locomotion). Knowing how to correlate the inputs to each system to achieve the desired result is helpful. Digital is based on precise things. Carbs allow for fuzzy math.

I can get 60 MPG with the Mille. Touring mode. Ride it like you stole it gives 40.

The V11 will deliver mid 40's with short shifting around town and above posted limits on the slab. Steady throttle 80-90 mph. Low 30's with a hooligan wrist.

[charlie b]

RK, yes.

[rodekyll]

RK, yes.

I'm working on that.

[charlie b]

Cool.

At one time I shifted the tapered needle when I knew I was not going to lower altitudes.  As soon as I did that I'd get a job in LA and have to ride there for a week.  So, I just learned to leave it set and live with it.  It rides well a bit on the rich side so I just put fill the tank more often.

[Orange Guzzi]

If fuel miles are the goal, lose weight, lose the windshield, use different tires, up the tire pressure, coast down hills, wear tighter fitting clothes, narrower handlebars so you are not a kite, lower the front fender closer to the wheel, use lighter motor oil, only fill the tank up half or less to reduce weight, run the engine low on oil to reduce weight.  Wind drag and weight are the biggest consumer of fuel.  Ride slow, very slow and don't stop. 

[molly]

Ah, Triumph. That is true. I rode my wife's Bonnie (2013) back to back with my Norge today. That Bonnie is incredibly smooth (and so was my 2014 Thruxton). Absolutely no throttle snatchiness at low speed. The Norge is on-off at low speed, bucking and lurching. I guess the British engineers are onto something.

The new generation fly by wire Triumphs have apparently greatly improved throttle response. I have a 2013 1050 Tiger Sport with a throttle cable and there isn't a ride goes by when at some stage I wish it had carbs. Even though I have tweaked the map it still will lurch forward occasionally on a slow bend if the throttle isn't applied perfectly.
Unlike the Guzzi I can't alter the temperature/pressure table because it runs too lean at higher ambient temperatures.
I can't say I had any such issues with the carbs on my earlier Hinckley Triumphs which gave good fuel consumption and never faltered at any altitude or temperature.