Sidecar for my EV?

[GearheadGrrrl]

Sounds like the "steering reversion" myth has returned.

No, you don't need to practice riding with the sidecar wheel in the air. No, the outfit doesn't dart left when the sidecar wheel comes up... But some riders panic and widen the radius of the curve when the sidecar wheel comes up. And if there's nothing in the way, running wide in the corner when you went in too hot is an acceptable way to save your ass. But better to keep the wheel down in the first place by properly engineering the outfit and taking curves at a prudent speed for your outfit. That means a sidecar matched to the bike and loaded with enough tools, parts, battery, etc. to keep it on the ground. And those yellow signs with a curving arrow and a number? Those are for you, and unless you're familiar with the curve and your outfit, the marked speed is the fastest you should take the curve at.

I've never had the "lift the wheel and experience steering reversion" training, and over 100,000 safe sidecar rig miles later I still see no need for it. Build and load your outfit right and you won't need to worry about the overrated "steering reversion".

[Tom]

Essentially, detox your brain of the 2 wheeled mentality and drive your outfit at your speed which could be slower than a car. 

[n3303j]

Sounds like the "steering reversion" myth has returned.

No, you don't need to practice riding with the sidecar wheel in the air. No, the outfit doesn't dart left when the sidecar wheel comes up... But some riders panic and widen the radius of the curve when the sidecar wheel comes up. And if there's nothing in the way, running wide in the corner when you went in too hot is an acceptable way to save your ass. But better to keep the wheel down in the first place by properly engineering the outfit and taking curves at a prudent speed for your outfit. That means a sidecar matched to the bike and loaded with enough tools, parts, battery, etc. to keep it on the ground. And those yellow signs with a curving arrow and a number? Those are for you, and unless you're familiar with the curve and your outfit, the marked speed is the fastest you should take the curve at.

I've never had the "lift the wheel and experience steering reversion" training, and over 100,000 safe sidecar rig miles later I still see no need for it. Build and load your outfit right and you won't need to worry about the overrated "steering reversion".

Steering reversion (countersteering) doesn't happen until the rig is balanced on two wheels. At this point the chair is almost higher than the bike and disaster could be a breadth away. I made mention about countersteering BUT THAT WAS NOT THE MAJOR POINT OF MY COMMENTS.

MY POINT WAS THAT SOONER OR LATER YOU WILL LIFT THE CHAIR SOME. PRACTICE THIS UNDER SAFE CONTROLLED CONDITIONS.

Not sure what, where or how you are riding. But either you are automatically compensating for steering pressure change and not noticing it or you have no experience with the chair in the air.

Due to steering trail where the tire contact patch is behind the steering axis. Putting the rig on two wheels pushes on the contact patch and attempts to pivot the bars to the left. (Take a shopping cart and put it up on the two left wheels. Notice the front caster is now pointed to the left. Same geometry as sidecar rig.)

Steering pressure goes up the minute the SC wheel leaves the ground. The inexperienced rider isn't used to this change and let's the pressure move the bars and head him off to the left. This happens long before he has time to react by decreasing the radius of his turn. This is why it is such a killer. The experienced rider just holds his course and maybe adds a dab of front brake.

Now: Why fly the chair under controlled conditions and become comfortable with the SC wheel leaving the ground?

Something gets in your way (door, pedestrian,deer, car, another rig) and you swerve to miss.

Swerve right and the chair might immediately come up. Stay calm (been there in practice ) and finish your evasive maneuver.

Swerve left and you stay planted until you have to swerve back right because of oncoming traffic. It's really comforting to know that you've been through these situations in rehearsal and the main act holds no surprises.

If you are from Australia just remember it's all opposite.

[Dean Rose]

This is just in the maybe process now, thanks for all of the advice. Keep it coming.

Dean

[Tom]

You won't regret the addition of a hack or a totally different rig.  It'll also lengthen your riding season.

[Mark Dasher]

I've been thinking about a hack too - for my Cal III.

Talk to Bob Wark http://www.warkshop.com/.  All around great guy and a wealth of knowledge when it comes to sidecars, also a local riding buddy of mine.  He's a Watsonian and Velorex dealer, but can also do custom mounting.  Tell him I sent you!


-- Mark

[Tom]

and there you go.....   Unless you want to hook it up yourself.    Flat garage floor string and a protractor.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Yes, I've had wheels up before, even on 18 wheelers! And from doing that, I've never noticed this massive "steering reversion" you refer to. We had a big debate on that subject on the sidecar forums a while back and pretty much conclude that "steering reversion" is overrated. And you can give the "caps lock" key a rest- If you engineer and load your rig properly and keep within the rigs "performance envelope", wheel lifting will be rare and entirely manageable. So quit trying to teach people how to make up for a poorly setup and/or loaded rig and instead teach people to respect the road and their vehicle's limits, regardless of what you are riding or driving!

Steering reversion (countersteering) doesn't happen until the rig is balanced on two wheels. At this point the chair is almost higher than the bike and disaster could be a breadth away. I made mention about countersteering BUT THAT WAS NOT THE MAJOR POINT OF MY COMMENTS.

MY POINT WAS THAT SOONER OR LATER YOU WILL LIFT THE CHAIR SOME. PRACTICE THIS UNDER SAFE CONTROLLED CONDITIONS.

Not sure what, where or how you are riding. But either you are automatically compensating for steering pressure change and not noticing it or you have no experience with the chair in the air.

Due to steering trail where the tire contact patch is behind the steering axis. Putting the rig on two wheels pushes on the contact patch and attempts to pivot the bars to the left. (Take a shopping cart and put it up on the two left wheels. Notice the front caster is now pointed to the left. Same geometry as sidecar rig.)

Steering pressure goes up the minute the SC wheel leaves the ground. The inexperienced rider isn't used to this change and let's the pressure move the bars and head him off to the left. This happens long before he has time to react by decreasing the radius of his turn. This is why it is such a killer. The experienced rider just holds his course and maybe adds a dab of front brake.

Now: Why fly the chair under controlled conditions and become comfortable with the SC wheel leaving the ground?

Something gets in your way (door, pedestrian,deer, car, another rig) and you swerve to miss.

Swerve right and the chair might immediately come up. Stay calm (been there in practice ) and finish your evasive maneuver.

Swerve left and you stay planted until you have to swerve back right because of oncoming traffic. It's really comforting to know that you've been through these situations in rehearsal and the main act holds no surprises.

If you are from Australia just remember it's all opposite.

[radguzzi]

This is just in the maybe process now, thanks for all of the advice. Keep it coming.

Dean

I was wondering if we had scared you off or not Dean... lol

[n3303j]

Yes, I've had wheels up before, even on 18 wheelers! And from doing that, I've never noticed this massive "steering reversion" you refer to. We had a big debate on that subject on the sidecar forums a while back and pretty much conclude that "steering reversion" is overrated. And you can give the "caps lock" key a rest- If you engineer and load your rig properly and keep within the rigs "performance envelope", wheel lifting will be rare and entirely manageable. So quit trying to teach people how to make up for a poorly setup and/or loaded rig and instead teach people to respect the road and their vehicle's limits, regardless of what you are riding or driving!

You keep bringing up steering reversion. I'm not talking about reversion. If you have the chair up that high you are on the edge of disaster and have other problems to deal with.

I am discussing the change in steering feel when (not if) one wheel comes off the ground. This is not a design or set up issue as I've seen people put sidecars in the air with 250# of ballast. I watch the same pilots keep 3 on the ground with an empty chair. I ride without ballast beyond the spare tire and basic tool kit unless the adventure requires additional cargo. 3 wheels are on the ground 99.9% of the time. Sometimes the chair comes up a bit in the tight ones but it is a non-event.

I suggest reading Bob Fleischer's comments on learning to pilot a rig. Bob (Snowbum at the BMW airhead site is a very intelligent rider with many years experience. Also a superb BMW mechanic). Motorcycle Safety Foundation's  training course also includes chair lifting exercises to prep the students for the real world.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/sidecarcountersteering.htm

[maquette]

This is just in the maybe process now, thanks for all of the advice. Keep it coming.
Dean

Hey Dean,





It's a Velorex, it will never work.    Some good advice here Dean. Practice is very important as well as some good old common sense. Think about what you are doing before you do it and try to be prepared for the unexpected. Get physically well first, . . .you're gonna need those ribs and upper body strength. It can take some time to set one up yourself, but it can be done. Taking the rig to a pro to have it set up right might be better if you can spend the money. There's a guy in PA, Claude Stanley who might be a good match for you.

Keep us posted.

[EldoMike]

My preference is the Ural car for a large bike like a Guzzi...the weight helps keep the rig planted...light cars are the most common mistake in my opinion...here are some I've had...no I don't have any for sale at this time...

http://s106.photobucket.com/user/eldomike/library/Sidecars%20Owned?sort=3&page=1

[BillinPA]

I've been thinking about a hack too - for my Cal III.

Talk to Bob Wark http://www.warkshop.com/.  All around great guy and a wealth of knowledge when it comes to sidecars, also a local riding buddy of mine.  He's a Watsonian and Velorex dealer, but can also do custom mounting.  Tell him I sent you!


-- Mark

I agree, I have bought two sidecars from Bob and his experience and willingness to help is greatly appreciated.

[Hacksaw]

Buy a rig and don't spoil your EV. 😁

"Spoil" you say?????
I prefer to say 'ENHANCED' 

I agree with Rich A when he said "I think the California series make good tugs."
The addition of a Todd Eagan supplied, custom 2 into 1 left side exit exhaust and a PC to deal with the unequal header lengths provides all the 'grunt' required to go waaaaay faster than required.

[brlawson]

Saw this beauty at the Iowa National.

[Tom]

I like the "OOOooweee" handle for the passenger.   

[sknapp351]

I'm definitely a fan of the Ural cars. I rarely lift the car.

Sam

[n3303j]

I'm used to seeing a Ural Sidecar a lot closer to the Tug.

[maquette]

Dean,

After you get it sorted, here's something you can do on the weekends:

https://www.facebook.com/Silodrome/videos/1045951798806764/       

Tom