Dealer installed fluids?

[SportsterDoc]

In case the model makes a difference, this inquiry is for a V7 II:

Does the dealer install fluids or are bikes shipped with oil already filled?

1. Mine puked a very small amount from the gearbox (6 speed) from the breather, so it may have been filled a tad over the 500 cc spec.

2. Dealer states they cannot obtain AGIP/ENi oil, so they use Motoul...if factory filled the first time, then there will be a brand change.   I am not especially brand loyal, but prefer to keep using what I start with.

Probably will purchase AGIP/ENi 75w-90 for gearbox (6 speed)  and AGIP/ENi 85w-140 for trans (hub) from AF1-Racer.com.

I am considering Castrol Edge 10W-60 for the engine.   Been using Castrol for every bike since 1963, other than the two Sportsters (and could/should have used it for them).

[pete roper]

Bikes are shipped oiled up but of course with the Nuovo Six Speed in the V7-II there is no way of actually checking the level. Guzzi/Piaggio make a big noise about using the Agip/ENI oil they specify because it is supposed to have absurdly long change intervals and this makes some here go all moist and clammy with excitement.

The thing is though the most likely cause of damage, especially to a pressure fed gearbox with a pump and bronze bushings under the pinions, is going to be of a particulate nature. Most specifically bits biffed off the engagement dogs!

Now most of the rolling element bearings in the box are, I believe, 2RS types so they are comparatively safe. The oil pump and pinion bushings are protected by a screen which will stop big bits but not smaller particles which will still be able to cause damage to these important components.

For that reason I still recommend tossing the gearbox oil every 10,000 Km and the new box only takes 500ml and yes, it will pump it out if it is even slightly over filled as I found out when I did the first service on 'Clancy's' bike a few years ago. I thought I had drained it thoroughly but I obviously didn't as it puked a load out over the next few days until corrected.

As for what oil? You can bust a gut going for the AGIP stuff if you wish but any decent, fully synthetic, 75/90 is more than adequate, we aren't talking about lubricating the pinions in something like a mine tug! It's a tiny motorbike making about 50 very small ponies fer heavens sakes! Just make sure the box is thoroughly drained and measure what goes in carefully. If it blurts some out? Drain a bit until it stops! Or suck 20ml out with a syringe!

Pete

[oldbike54]

 "All moist and clammy with excitement" 

 Of course anything capable of causing that condition in us old guys can't be all bad 

 Dusty

[SportsterDoc]

Bikes are shipped oiled up but of course with the Nuovo Six Speed in the V7-II there is no way of actually checking the level.
As for what oil? You can bust a gut going for the AGIP stuff if you wish but any decent, fully synthetic, 75/90 is more than adequate...

Thanks, Pete.

At $18.99 (AF1-Racing.com) for one liter, good for two complete changes, price for ENi (formerly AGIP) is not an issue.

And $14.99 for one liter, good for almost 6 changes for the tans-hub, price is certainly not an issue.

Furthermore, I am finding pure synthetic at auto parts actually more expensive.

After the first change, the manual states every 37,300 miles for the gearbox and 12,400 miles for the trans-hub.

I am planning on the second change of engine, gearbox and hub fluids at about 3,000 miles, then continue with the schedule, if not sooner.

[Clancy]

7000km since the last service done at Pete's workshop by Michael & I (I was only watching, but I'm an expert at that ).
From Pete's previous experience we were careful to remove the fill plug when draining the old oil out, so I'm positive we got it all out.
Even then, I still get a small amount of misting from the breather now & then, usually only after long freeway trips (3+hrs @ 120+km/hr).
Not worried. That's what the breather's there for.
Wipe it off. All good.

[fotoguzzi]

After the first change, the manual states every 37,300 miles for the gearbox 

for real?

[SportsterDoc]

for real?

Page 48/280 in the manual:  60,000 kilometers

[sib]

Page 48/280 in the manual:  60,000 kilometers

The oil that is specified by Motio Guzzi for the 6-sp small block gearboxes is also used in heavy duty truck and bus gearboxes that are normally serviced every 500,000 mi.  But, bear in mind that this oil, eni ROTRA LSX 75W-90, is not quite the same as the very similar one that AF1 and others sell in the US.  It is rated API MT-1, in addition to GL-4 and GL-5.  The MT-1 rating is supposed to increase the life of the oil and the seals.  Since this oil in not available from the US distributor in 1-L bottles, I got mine directly from an Italian seller on ebay.  It is expensive to ship, but I'm not worried, since I'll use only 1 L every 120,000 km.  If I were to instead use the oil that IS available in the US, I'd probably change it more often than every 60,000 km.

[sib]

I am considering Castrol Edge 10W-60 for the engine.   Been using Castrol for every bike since 1963, other than the two Sportsters (and could/should have used it for them).

At the risk of encouraging yet another oil thread, let me just point out that Castrol Edge 10W-60 is a fine oil for it's intended uses, and carries an API certification of SN.  The oil specified by Moto Guzzi, eni i-Ride MotoGP 10W-60, carries an API certification of SG.  The difference?  SG oil contains significantly more of the anti-wear agent ZDDP than SN oil.  Why doesn't Castrol put more ZDDP in their oil?  ZDDP does a great job to lengthen flat tappet life but its by-products degrade exhaust catalytic converters faster.  It's been reported that US auto industry and EPA have exerted pressure on the oil manufacturers to lower the amount of ZDDP they put in their oils.

Now, I'm not saying that SG oil will prevent all wear and SN oil will not.  If you put less than 25,000 mi on your motorcycle before you sell it, you probably wouldn't notice any difference.  But, I'm planning to keep my V7II longer, so I'm sticking with what Moto Guzzi recommends.

[SportsterDoc]

The oil that is specified by Motio Guzzi for the 6-sp small block gearboxes is also used in heavy duty truck and bus gearboxes that are normally serviced every 500,000 mi.  But, bear in mind that this oil, eni ROTRA LSX 75W-90, is not quite the same as the very similar one that AF1 and others sell in the US.  It is rated API MT-1, in addition to GL-4 and GL-5.  The MT-1 rating is supposed to increase the life of the oil and the seals.  Since this oil in not available from the US distributor in 1-L bottles, I got mine directly from an Italian seller on ebay.  It is expensive to ship, but I'm not worried, since I'll use only 1 L every 120,000 km.  If I were to instead use the oil that IS available in the US, I'd probably change it more often than every 60,000 km.

Thanks for pointing out the lack of MT-1 on the AF1-Racing product.

http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=7325

However, since the 6 speed, as is most M/C, is synchronized, does the MT-1 actually have benefits?

http://www.oilspecifications.org/api_gos.php

The designation API MT-1 denotes lubricants intended for non-synchronized manual transmissions used in buses and heavy-duty trucks. Lubricants meeting the requirements of API MT-1 service provide protection against the combination of thermal degradation, component wear, and oil-seal deterioration, which is not provided by lubricants in current use meeting only the requirements of API GL-1, 4, or 5.

[SportsterDoc]

At the risk of encouraging yet another oil thread, let me just point out that Castrol Edge 10W-60 is a fine oil for it's intended uses, and carries an API certification of SN.  The oil specified by Moto Guzzi, eni i-Ride MotoGP 10W-60, carries an API certification of SG.  The difference?  SG oil contains significantly more of the anti-wear agent ZDDP than SN oil.  Why doesn't Castrol put more ZDDP in their oil?  ZDDP does a great job to lengthen flat tappet life but its by-products degrade exhaust catalytic converters faster.  It's been reported that US auto industry and EPA have exerted pressure on the oil manufacturers to lower the amount of ZDDP they put in their oils.

Now, I'm not saying that SG oil will prevent all wear and SN oil will not.  If you put less than 25,000 mi on your motorcycle before you sell it, you probably wouldn't notice any difference.  But, I'm planning to keep my V7II longer, so I'm sticking with what Moto Guzzi recommends.

Sam I appreciate and respect all the info that you have provided via PM and email on schematics, relays and such, but seek more information about this subject.

Here is what I have on SN:

http://www.oilspecifications.org/api_eolcs.php

Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to provide improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons, more stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource Conservingmatches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with improved fuel economy, turbocharger protection, emission control systemcompatibility, and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php

Most M/C manuals suggest SG, but most M/C have a wet clutch, thus the oft stated reason for suggesting/specifying an obsolete grade.

If I continue to put 700 miles a month on the V7 II, that is 8,400 mile a year, 25,200 in 3 years, which takes me to age 73.
The longest I have kept any M/C is 5 years

I took the Bonneville across the desert to and from Los Angeles to Las Vegas a few times and only put 7,000 miles a year on it.

Used this oil:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/CAS7/SYNMC2050.oap?ck=Search_motorcycle+oil_-1_-1&keyword=motorcycle+oil#itemDetailTab_
and changed it 3 times in one year.

It is API SL:  http://www.castrol.com/en_us/united-states/motorcycle-oil/4-stroke-engine-oil/power-rs-v-twin-4t.html

[Kev m]

Most M/C manuals suggest SG, but most M/C have a wet clutch, thus the oft stated reason for suggesting/specifying an obsolete grade.

I'm not sure there's a cause and effect there that I buy.

Not to mention that technically don't all/most Guzzis, Harleys, and BMWs have separate engines and transmissions, yet I BELIEVE they all still recommend SG (someone would have to confirm about BMW for me, I'm too removed from their late-model stuff)?

Why? Can't say. My best guess and the most simple would be there's no motivation to test new formulation oils at this time. The auto industry has only done it because of fear over long term damage to Cat-Cons, and I don't think MCs are currently subject to the long term emissions warranty's that are forced on the auto industry, so no need to care (yet).

No matter. I can't speak on this too strongly because though I DO stick to the Agip/ENI for the crankcase of my current Guzzi, I DIDN'T on my Jackal and didn't always on my Breva, and I have never bothered using Agip/ENI for the transmissions/final drives on any of them. I currently use a locally available Lucas for both on the V7. <shrugs>

[SportsterDoc]

Most M/C oils at an auto parts store are SG.

This link supports Sam's concerns:  https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/classic-and-vintage/articles/reduced-zddp-and-wear-protection/

But how applicable is it to a non-muscle car?

After break-in, I may hit 6500 RPM in first or second, briefly, but normal riding is 3,000 to 4,000 around town and 3,000 to 5,000 on the highway.

Did not intend to turn this into an oil thread...especially since winter is almost over!

[Kev m]

No, I'm well aware of the promotion of high ZDDP for flat tappet motors (though don't Harleys have roller tappets and don't their oils still meet SG standards).

I was simply questioning any relationship between SG oils and wet clutches. I don't think the SG standard itself had anything to do with wet clutches and the fact that many motorcycles that recommend SG oils use wet clutches doesn't mean it is formulated specifically for that or conversely wouldn't be proper for motorcycles without wet clutches.

Maybe I'm misreading your intention of mentioning wet clutches in the first place.

[sib]

....However, since the 6 speed, as is most M/C, is synchronized....

This is a common misconception.  The Moto Guzzi 6-sp gearbox, like the 5-sp one that preceded it, are not synchromesh, they're constant mesh with sliding dogs to engage the cogs on the shafts.  There are no bronze alloy synchronizing clutches to slide against each other, and gearbox oils containing ingredients to extend the life of these components are not needed.

Also, as Kev m pointed out, Moto Guzzis have dry clutches, so any oil ingredient that is supposed to play nice with wet clutches is irrelevant here.