2001 Cal Special electrical gremlin

[Kent in Upstate NY]

Prior to putting my bike up for winter I noticed the the fuel pump would not always prime when I tuned on the ignition. I would give it a couple tries and everything would then work. Now, when I am getting ready for spring I noticed that the pump wouldn't prime at all. I have replaced the fuses and relays and everything worked fine. Then it didn't. Pulled fuses and relays and used deoxit to clean connections and then everything worked fine until it didn't. Checked ECU connection and cleaned contacts and the same things happened.  I plan to pull the tank and check the fuel pump connections. Anything else I should check? Oh, one more thing. The brake light comes on when I turn on the ignition. Bad micro switch?

[oldbike54]

 Isn't the fuel pump external , low left side under the side cover ? Locate the pump and give it a good tap , see if that makes a difference .

 The brake light does sound like a bad switch . Try pulling one of the connections to both switches and see if the brake light goes out .

 Dusty

[Kiwi_Roy]

If the pump isn't priming chances are there-s no power to the ECU or the electric petcock if it has one.
Do you still have the side-stand switch, that's where I would look first contacts may have corroded over the winter followed by cleaning the ignition switch.

I'm assuming this bike has a 15M ECU and 5or 6 relays, if so the wiring may be similar to this Jackal
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Jackal.gif
If the bike has an electric fuel petcock measure the Voltage at the petcock fuse otherwise across the two coil pins of the first ECU relay, either spot should go +12 when you turn the key On

[oldbike54]

 Roy , remember back when my Jackal went dead and you guys very patiently talked me thru the problem ? The key to figuring out what was really happening was the electric petcock not going clunk because it is powered from the same circuit as the ECU .

 Kent , is the electric petcock making the clunk sound when you turn on the key ? If it is , I'm betting the pump is just stuck .

 Dusty

[guzzisteve]

I would check the kill switch also, if it's off you get no pump power. Could be faulty contacts in it.

[oldbike54]

I would check the kill switch also, if it's off you get no pump power. Could be faulty contacts in it.

 Steve , will the starter motor turn over with a bad kill switch , I can't remember .

 Dusty

[guzzisteve]

I don't think so.-----nope, just tried it.

[Kent in Upstate NY]

I replaced the petcock with a manual years ago. The  sidestand switch is also disabled. The bike will crank and all the lights work. I will try tapping the pump next. Thanks.
Kill switch will also get inspected. Earlier today when everything worked I cycled the killswitch several times  and the pump primed each time. I started the bike and it ran fine. Turned it off and it would not work again.

[guzzisteve]

There is also a round rubber 2 pin connector on the wires going to the external pump on LH side behind sidecover.

[oldbike54]

There is also a round rubber 2 pin connector on the wires going to the external pump on LH side behind sidecover.

 Yep , and not a very good design . Removed mine .

 Dusty

[Kiwi_Roy]

Roy , remember back when my Jackal went dead and you guys very patiently talked me thru the problem ? The key to figuring out what was really happening was the electric petcock not going clunk because it is powered from the same circuit as the ECU .

 Kent , is the electric petcock making the clunk sound when you turn on the key ? If it is , I'm betting the pump is just stuck .

 Dusty

Dusty,
          Can you remember why the petcock was not going clunk.
I reckon the petcock fuse is the key, if its alive or not tells you a lot about what's going on, sure you can hear the clunk but a light there is just as good. Kent, even though you no longer have an electric petcock the fuse is still there, for goodness sale wire a light up to it, make it do something useful.

If the petcock fuse is dead look backwards to the Kill switch, ignition switch and associated wiring.
If the petcock fuse is alive next thing is to do is look forward to see if the pump relay picks up when you crank the bike.

[oldbike54]

 Roy , if I remember correctly , the petcock and ECU are powered by the same source . In my case , there was a small green wire broken inside the harness near the steering neck . Actually , the wire had already had a butt connector installed , and the wire had pulled out on one side . Had to split the cover , add a length of wire , and reconnect . Been fine
since .

 Dusty

[Kiwi_Roy]

Roy , if I remember correctly , the petcock and ECU are powered by the same source . In my case , there was a small green wire broken inside the harness near the steering neck . Actually , the wire had already had a butt connector installed , and the wire had pulled out on one side . Had to split the cover , add a length of wire , and reconnect . Been fine
since .

 Dusty

Dusty,
          The wire had probably snapped with constant bending on the and been repaired by the previous owner, it's really not a good idea to use a connector right where the wires are constantly moving,
Kent, try moving the bars from lock to lock while trying to start.
Check for power at the petcock fuse.
I assume you have tried moving relays around in case you have a bad one, Test them in the headlight and start position. You don't need a horn or headlight relay at this stage, use those as spare.

I think this must be the schematic for your bike, Carl has it subtitled 2001 California special
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2002_Stone.gif

[Vagrant]

if you don't have the DP? relays buy them. second sitting a long time corrodes them. pull the negative off the battery remove each relay and clean the studs and spray the female holder with cleaner. odds are that will fix it. Do the fuses at the same time. next the connector at the pump connector as mentioned and the side stand switch. next  spray the inside of the ignition switch from the top and make sure you put a rag under it to catch the drippings so the fender doesn't have to.

[Kent in Upstate NY]

Thanks for the suggestions and the wiring diagram.  I try them later. I also have the dp relays.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Look at the schematic, find the stand relay, note the white brown wire going off to the right to power the start relay and also go up to the petcock fuse and the ECU relay. Apart from the signal to the ECU relay the ignition. fuel pump and injectors are completely isolated from the rest of the bike, everything passes through the choke point at the petcock fuse, that's why its such a vital spot to monitor. A small lamp is the best because it's so visual.

What do we know?
Power is getting to the Start relay because the bike always cranks (doesn't it?)
But the voltage could be as low as 6 Volts and not enough to close the ECU relay.
The ECU and fuel system each have a dedicated feed directly from the battery so we can assume the 30 terminals both have a good 12 Volts. (but inspect the wire to fuses 5 & 6 just to be sure)
BTW relay 51 30 contact connects to the
But
Each time you cycle the key or kill switch the ECU relay is supposed to pick up, this causes the ECU to pulse the power relay and run the pump, why isn't it always happening?
Low Voltage perhaps not enough to close the relay
This would be instantly apparent with a lamp on the petcock fuse.
The ECU relay needs more Voltage to operate than any other relay, it's the first one to fail due to low Voltage from a dirty switch because of the safety diode (51) robs 0.6 Volts from it.
BTW the relay (51) 30 contact connects to the GRM/WHT wire from fuse 6
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2002_Stone.gif

[Kent in Upstate NY]

Would a dying battery also cause this? I think it is over 10 yrs old.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ah - yes
Low Voltage will effect the ECU, I'm not sure what Voltage but it does cut off at some low level
Can you jumper in another while you test?

BTW I commend you on checking a bunch of stuff in your original post.

[Kent in Upstate NY]

Of course I could have checked to see if the battery connections were tight. 

[oldbike54]

Of course I could have checked to see if the battery connections were tight. 

 Did that solve the problem ? Always always always start with the simple stuff 

 Dusty

[Kent in Upstate NY]

Looks like it. Now I just have to deal with the constantly on brake light. The front switch is ok so it looks like the rear switch is defective or stuck.

[oldbike54]

Looks like it. Now I just have to deal with the constantly on brake light. The front switch is ok so it looks like the rear switch is defective or stuck.

 Yeah , and that is a hydraulic switch , just a bit trickier to deal with . Mine is disconnected and replaced by a pull type switch like on older bikes . Glad it was something simple 

 Dusty

[pehayes]

Looks like it. Now I just have to deal with the constantly on brake light. The front switch is ok so it looks like the rear switch is defective or stuck.

The front switch is the culprit far more often.  How did you test the front when you say "...front switch is ok..."?  If you remove and test the switch, sure it will be fine.  But there is a little steel ball that slides in the brake handle perch and activates the switch.  Exposed to dirty atmosphere that ball gets stuck in its channel.  I'd like to hear more about the switch test procedure and if you removed and cleaned the ball passage.  Very easy to lose the ball.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Kent in Upstate NY]

I disconnected the wires on the front switch and the brake light stayed on.

[pehayes]

That's a good test!  Have you done similar at the rear, hydraulic switch?  Could be the rear switch.  Could be a wire short elsewhere.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Kent in Upstate NY]

All issues resolved. Thanks for all your help.

[oldbike54]

I haven't done that yet as I can't find the wire to the rear switch.

 Kent , pull the right side cover , you will see the rear master cylinder , the switch sits on top of the cylinder , the wires will be attached there .

 Dusty