Seat foam?

[Testarossa]

What have you used to refresh the internals of a tired-out saddle? What works best?

[sidecarnutz]

Here is what I use. It supports really well. You don't foam that is too soft in a seat. It'll collapse quickly and the pan edges will dig into your legs causing pain.

Look up the foam Factory in Detroit. Excellent to deal with IME. And they sell an honest product. It is what they state it is! I have had trouble in that since my local supplier OD'd and passed away a few years ago. Family shut down his warehouse. They sell chopped rebonded foam. This stuff is tough and very resilient! 2-3" of it under your butt can make an excellent touring seat. I rough cut it with a hacksaw blade. Glue it in place and do the final shaping with a 8" high speed disk sanded with a 22 grit disk. Then cover  the seat in 1/2 of lightweight foam for some cushiness and to allow t he seams of the cover to settle into it, Then a layer of plastic and then fit the cover.

No, I won't sell any. I buy a 2" x 2' x 8' slab of it and it costs almost $100. Get your own slab!

The 1/3" thick rebounded carpet foam from Lowes can be sued to add thickness and fill in before final shaping. Stay away from 3M spray cement. It won't hold well. DAP contact cement from a hardware store is worse. It is like corn syrup. Gives up under the suns warmth! I use DAP upholstery cement pre thinned for spraying. About $100 for a 5 gallon can. You but it from upholstery ware houses. I typically spray a couple quarts into a seat job.

If you are a cheap DIY'r, no good solutions exist. Spend the money on good foam, an air compressor, a cheap HF spray gun and good cement and do it right! At least good staple guns are cheap now. HQ sells and excellent one for under $50.

Rich's Cycle Upholstery, since 1996.   

Rich Maund

[Testarossa]

Good info, Rich.  Thanks!

[sidecarnutz]

You're welcome. A few years back when my local foam guy OD'd, I almost went out of business. A couple mail order places I tried were selling foam that was half the weight it was advertised at. It was fluffy junk too light to even be good packing material! And when you call to complain, they put some know nothing 20 year old girl on the phone hoping you won't have the heart to scream at her. Their excuse was the factory told it was this and they don't know any better. They just sell it! These materials have become difficult to find.

If anyone is close enough to drive to me in SE Va. I can sell some of the good contact cement. You'll need a glass or metal container as the cement is lacquer based and eats plastics. That is one reason it is difficult to find. Ground shipment only. Or you can see if your local auto upholstery place will sell some. It is best applied with a spray gun. Apply lightly to both surfaces and allow to dry to a tack. Just a few minutes. Then place them together and rub. Very strong. You have one chance to get it right! Great stuff to repair boots or to glue a cover down to a steel seat pan too. I've used it for 20 years. Awesome stuff.

The thin 1/2" soft foam rolls are tough to find too. A couple layers of headliner foam/fabric substitute well for it.

[BMCMOTO]

Seth,
One of Rich's first Guzzis was a Mille if I remember correctly. Rich has made two seats for me first one for my Jackal and the last for my Mille. Rich does excellent work and both seats are very comfortable "My ass thanks him". I'm not capable of making or modifying my own seat, I have tried in the past and failed miserably. He has been very forthcoming with this information about seat foam and has my great respect, thanks again Rich!

Brian

[sidecarnutz]

Thanks! Making my own Mille seat was the start of my business back in 1996. Self taught after 20 years as a nuc power mechanic in the Navy. Up through my 40's I could rebuild almost a seat a day. Dawn to dusk working hours! Then I got into my 50's and got diabetic and old injuries were nagging me badly. I left the Navy after 20 years with both legs crushed and both shoulders torn and carpal tunnel/arthritis in my hands. My Grandmother used to warn me that old age isn't for sissies. Now it takes me a week to do a seat. But I am grateful to still be able to dabble in it. Thankfully I believe my mind still works. My visualization skills are still there. I can still weld and work metal. Just more slowly than I used to!

[Ncdan]

Here is what I use. It supports really well. You don't foam that is too soft in a seat. It'll collapse quickly and the pan edges will dig into your legs causing pain.

Look up the foam Factory in Detroit. Excellent to deal with IME. And they sell an honest product. It is what they state it is! I have had trouble in that since my local supplier OD'd and passed away a few years ago. Family shut down his warehouse. They sell chopped rebonded foam. This stuff is tough and very resilient! 2-3" of it under your butt can make an excellent touring seat. I rough cut it with a hacksaw blade. Glue it in place and do the final shaping with a 8" high speed disk sanded with a 22 grit disk. Then cover  the seat in 1/2 of lightweight foam for some cushiness and to allow t he seams of the cover to settle into it, Then a layer of plastic and then fit the cover.

No, I won't sell any. I buy a 2" x 2' x 8' slab of it and it costs almost $100. Get your own slab!

The 1/3" thick rebounded carpet foam from Lowes can be sued to add thickness and fill in before final shaping. Stay away from 3M spray cement. It won't hold well. DAP contact cement from a hardware store is worse. It is like corn syrup. Gives up under the suns warmth! I use DAP upholstery cement pre thinned for spraying. About $100 for a 5 gallon can. You but it from upholstery ware houses. I typically spray a couple quarts into a seat job.

If you are a cheap DIY'r, no good solutions exist. Spend the money on good foam, an air compressor, a cheap HF spray gun and good cement and do it right! At least good staple guns are cheap now. HQ sells and excellent one for under $50.

Rich's Cycle Upholstery, since 1996.   

Rich Maund

what do you charge for a seat rebuild?

[Testarossa]

Rich, you are amazingly generous with your knowledge and advice. What you can't pass along is the skill in your hands.

Because I own old Guzzis (that is, I'm cheap) I feel compelled to try to cobble something together from egg-crate chair pad foam. I only weigh 150 lb (and Gail 110) so I hope we won't bottom out the foam. My real problem is my bony ass.

If it doesn't work out, I'll send the pan to Rich.

[sidecarnutz]

Egg crate foam is very soft and will collapse like a whoopy cushion. You're better off with layers of carpet padding.

I don't have a set price as all seats are different in what they need. Some are so bad  they cannot be rebuilt into a comfortable seat because they were too badly engineered to begin with. I have all I can do already for March. My e-mail is maunds at Verizon.net if you want to discuss a job.

I don't mind freely sharing my materials and techniques. Its not rocket science. But we have become a society of cubicle dwellers, so old mechanics like me will always be able to find some work.

[redrider90]

Thanks! Making my own Mille seat was the start of my business back in 1996. Self taught after 20 years as a nuc power mechanic in the Navy. Up through my 40's I could rebuild almost a seat a day. Dawn to dusk working hours! Then I got into my 50's and got diabetic and old injuries were nagging me badly. I left the Navy after 20 years with both legs crushed and both shoulders torn and carpal tunnel/arthritis in my hands. My Grandmother used to warn me that old age isn't for sissies. Now it takes me a week to do a seat. But I am grateful to still be able to dabble in it. Thankfully I believe my mind still works. My visualization skills are still there. I can still weld and work metal. Just more slowly than I used to!

I remember that Mille Rich. You made a beautiful custom dashboard for it.

[organfixsing]

Had a lounge suite once. The cushions were made with that grey somewhat hard plastic foam, which sounds bad.
The grey foam was covered with a dense, soft blue plastic foam and this made all the difference. Very comfortable.
The grey foam held the weight with perhaps 30% compression and the blue foam took any sharp edge of the compressed foam.
From memory, the approximate foam thicknesses were: Grey foam 50mm/2" and blue 12mm/1/2".
Those foam heights are probably too high, but you get the idea.
Cheers
Brian 

[DaSwami]

I sent my original V7II seat to Sargent cycle products in Jacksonville. They use "super cell atomic foam" or something like that.  They raised and leveled the seat and covered in industrial/marine vinyl.  Made all the difference in the world.

[sidecarnutz]

I sent my original V7II seat to Sargent cycle products in Jacksonville. They use "super cell atomic foam" or something like that.  They raised and leveled the seat and covered in industrial/marine vinyl.  Made all the difference in the world.

Back in 1995 Sargents butchered my Mille seat so badly it wasn't even funny. They charged extra for Guzzi, BMW and Harley seats because....... well, just because. I sent a sketch and written direction on how I wanted the seat done. They charged me a bunch extra acting like they'd have to call out the Marines to get it all done. I got the seat back a couple weeks later butchered. It didn't even resemble what I asked for. It was F  'd up bad. Then, a week later before I could even send it back, I get run down by the crack head welfare queen from Hell on my way to work one night. I wake up three days later in the hospital. Both legs crushed and both shoulders torn and my bike totaled. It took a few months top get up on crutches, but then I started sewing to make up for the huge pay cut the Navy handed me when I became a "broken toy". I was climbing, on crutches, up into sail boats to take down canvas and then rebuild it. Pretty soon I was doing seats as well. I have a lot of engineering training as a nuc mechanic. I spent years building RC airplanes from scratch. I'm a guy who has always worked with his hands. I could study a seat and reverse engineer it. My first Mille seat was good. Two weeks later, after thinking it over. I rebuilt it again and it was great. Years of bike commuting on over 30 bikes has given me a good sense of ergonomics for seats. I am good at sculpting. My formula is make a well shaped and supporting seat base of firm foam with soft top padding for cushiness to reduce hot spots. That is why I like gel sheets on top of firm foam. Marine vinyl and double stitched seams give you durability. I apply upholstery glue to all seams to bond the thread to the fabric. Helps water resistance. Also means that if you do break a stitch, it won't spread open and ruin a seam.

Nuclear engineering meets upholstery! Build to eliminate failure modes!   

[charlie b]

I had a seat done by Rich too.  Excellent work.

Rich, did you ever build the SPAD?  ;)

When I turned my T5 seat into a solo I decided to try one myself.  I sew stuff, so figured a seat cover would not be too hard  :)  And I had Rich's old seat cover to use as a kind of pattern.

I went the 'tractor' style.  Got all my foam from an auto upholstery shop in town.  Good stuff and I could get as little as I wanted.  They had thre or four densities of foam.  I got marine grade vinyl from Joann fabrics along with some thread.

Shaped with a kitchen knife (electric carving knifes are best), belt sander and angle grinder.  Oh, and use a piece of 1/4" ply to spread out the load a bit.

First try actually worked.  I had it for quite a while and then figured I needed to make the seat cover look better.  So, I did it again.

This time I tried the thermal foam stuff.  Guys use it in airplane seats so I figure what do I have to lose.

Really comfy.  BUT.....it works on heat.  Not good.  If temps are below 50deg it is hard as a rock until your butt warms it up.  And when really hot out it is too soft.  Would not do that again.

For shaping seats try reading here
diymotorcycleseats. com

[sidecarnutz]

Charlie
That SPAD kit is on a shelf next to my bench. If I ever get to retire, it will get built! Eddie Rickenbacher was a childhood hero of mine. I don't even get time to fly my electric ARFs anymore. Lots of family and friend stuff and medical appointments keep me busy.

[kingoffleece]

In general terms there's only two kinds of foam.  Open cell and closed cell.  The "hard" stuff that needs to break in is a certain kind of closed cell.  The break-in is a crushing of the cell wall and this lets some air "in".  This is a very simplified explanation.

Think of closed cell as a bubble with a solid outer wall and open cell as having a window or two in the cell wall which allows air to move about.

Pros and cons to each.

[charlie b]

Charlie
That SPAD kit is on a shelf next to my bench. If I ever get to retire, it will get built! Eddie Rickenbacher was a childhood hero of mine. I don't even get time to fly my electric ARFs anymore. Lots of family and friend stuff and medical appointments keep me busy.

Fair enough.  Mine is still my favorite to fly.  My childhood hero was Frank Luke, also a Phoenix boy, so you can guess how mine is decorated  :)  I flew last week for the first time in several months.  Getting the house sold and 'moving' has eaten up my time.

Good luck on the medical stuff.

[davevv]

This works well for me. About $20 at Walmart IIRC.  Closed cell foam and makes a very firm seat. Spray adhesive to put the layers together and finished shaping with a disk sander.

[Testarossa]

The guys who fit ski boots for a living have interesting ways to make accurate molds from the soles of the feet. I'm going to see if I can adapt some of that technology to make a mold from my butt, and work that into a saddle shape.

Who knows?  Might be a new business plan.

[Lannis]

The guys who fit ski boots for a living have interesting ways to make accurate molds from the soles of the feet. I'm going to see if I can adapt some of that technology to make a mold from my butt, and work that into a saddle shape.....

Although we typically like to see "works in progress", I think we'd just as soon wait and see the Finished Result on this one, since schedules are important and you might get a little behind in your work.

Good luck!