tonti, from the ground up build?

[turpentyne]

So... outlandish idea, and wanted to get the take from those with more experience.

I'm hunting down two bikes. one to ride. one to restore, build, learn inside and out. Forget the "to ride" bike for now...

I've been entertaining the probably crazy idea of not just buying a basket case, but buying a 70s Tonti frame I've seen online for cheap, then start getting parts and building the bike from there. Just because... and it's a shame those parts are loose on the Internet and not on a bike, where they should be. Ignore for the moment that the frame might not have a clear title, and it probably costs more to build than to buy a whole bike.

How feasible is this madness? With a Harley, I'm pretty sure every nut and bolt in 'em is for sale somewhere. I'm sure Guzzis would be harder. If I had for example  a '76 frame, I'd want everything else on it to be from '76 if possible.  (I'm shooting for an 850 t3... although I saw a loop frame out there too, and I love the ol' ambassadors and Eldorados.)

Thoughts on this crazy idea?

[jdgretz]

Of course it's a crazy idea.  You've correctly pointed out that it will probably cost more than buying a working and sorted out bike, that it may be difficult to get year correct parts (but you shouldn't have a problem getting series correct parts and with Guzzi, who knows exactly what parts came out of the parts bin on exactly what day anyway =;-> ).

My vote is to go for it.  It makes perfect sense to me, and boy will you know your bike better than you ever would if you just bought a runner - especially a correctly restored or refreshed one.

Take lots of pics and keep us well informed on the build process.

This will be fun.

jdg

[Denis]

It sure can be done, but do not have any illusions about how straightforward it will be!

I bought a 1940 Indian basket case from a guy in Canada. It had a LOT of parts with it but it turned out to have the incorrect engine cases, the rims had rust holes in them and I needed spokes, the tanks were shot and 5.75 million correctly sized nuts, bolts, washers, etc were missing. Not to mention I needed a seat, chain guard, speedometer, wiring, generator, and on and on. I had NO CHOICE but to go to swap meets, buy off eBay, make friends with guys who have tons of parts, etc. It was fun as hell but it took me years. (money, time and parts availability were not working for me).

That said, at least Guzzi made a lot of loop frame bikes and a lot Tonti frame bikes and so much of them are interchangeable that it will be easier for you than it was for me. I would suggest starting off with as big a chunk of a bike as you can to start with!

Before and after pics of my Indian are below.







site to upload photos

[fotoguzzi]

not too crazy, parts that fit a T3 also found on the G5, Convert (but not drive train parts) and Cal2.. most loop frame parts (eldo/Ambo) interchangeable among loop frames..any big block engine before the Vintage will fit both frames. 
around the California 3 timme the TONTI frame was enlarged, taller steering head, longer swing arm.. there's actually a few different length s/a's.  If you get the book Guzziology, it's full of charts and lists of what can be interchanged.

98 square fin in the older tonti frame.

[oldbike54]

 A couple of questions . Are you married and do you have kids . If so , plan on not being married within a year of starting this project , and about the same time your kids won't recognize you anymore . Other than that , sounds like a great idea .

 Dusty

[Northern Bill]

I think it is a great idea as long as you don't limit yourself to one piece at a time.  If you buy the bits in big chunks it should make things more reasonable.  I also think buying a basket case or an old clunker, in addition to the frame, as a parts source would be a good idea and would still be in the spirit of things.  I'm not sure if it is still there but there was a running t3 for sale on the national owners site for $1800.  In my recent build from T3 to Le Mans replica I sold off all the bits I didn't need from the t3 on ebay.  Even though I was left with virtually a complete bike I still sold over $1200 worth of parts.   I can't imagine what it would cost if you bought a whole bike piece by piece!!  The shipping alone would be overwhelming.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I say go for it. I've built several Loops the same way, most notably my '71 Ambo "Barney". I usually collect parts until I reach "critical mass" (approx. 90% of what's needed) and then have at it.
If you're really bored or need a sure-fire cure for insomnia read this: 
http://thisoldtractor.com/projects_barney_blog.html

Parts: I have a bunch of stuff that could be had cheap:
- Convert frame with clear MD title
- T3 engine that will need cylinders
- Convert misc.: axles, engine mounting bolts, rear fender(s), sidecovers, fuseblock, etc.
- headpipes still stuck in the crossover

[Demar]

I'm doing this now with a 1970 Ambo. I have a bunch of parts already and have a 1970 frame and matching engine case. Some new parts where I can get them, some old parts. I plan on having Charlie rebuild the engine and transmission, carbs and probably rear drive fitting them in where he has time. That way there are experienced eyes that will see worn parts that need replacing. I can spread the buy process over a period of time. I've already had the speedo and tach rebuilt to new by a good gauge restorer in the UK. Charlie has been exceptional in answering numerous questions so far and I greatly appreciate that. Thanks Charlie! 

[pat80flh]

 I'm doing exactly that right now, and wondering if I was crazy to even think about it. But after missing out on deal after deal, I decided to go for it. I found a local guy with a 75 850T  frame, engine block, and title.(and he has 2 more he wants to sell) I bought a used engine, trans and final drive from another fellow. Front end, wheels, headers, mufflers from the first guy. Brake calipers, on ebay. Still a lot to go but I have enough to start on when I find the most precious commodity; time.

   But it's all good, I have a bike to ride(gotta get those fork seals done), the wifes needs a few final fixes, but that's up and running. I'm $1800, 2 months in at this point, stuff like tires and clutches I'll buy new. Got a pair of shocks on the shelf, along with a couple of Mikunis that I'll try and make work. At the end I'll have something, not sure what yet. Goal is a rider.

[Guzzistajohn]

I was fortunate enough to ride some AHRMA trials events with Dick Mann, He made the comment "your not a rider until you build your own bike" well, that left me out  Oh and "I HATE F_____g sand!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Oh and "I HATE F_____g sand!

The old quote, "when in doubt, gas it" applies to the max in sand.. 

[rodekyll]

I'm short forks, brakes, and seat from a complete pile of 2002 EV.  It takes a while.  You need to decide up front what fit and finish you want when you're done and stick to the game plan.  The 90% parts rule is a good one -- be a parts collector until you've got about 90% (assuming it's the right 90%) and then start the build.  Timeline is secondary, and don't try to imagine the cost v buying a runner.  It will depress you. 

What will really depress you if a return is expected, is that in order to get what you put into it, you need to sell it the same way you bought it.  Complete tontis are mostly not worth what their parts are.  So you must do the project for its own sake, not for profit.

And be sure it's the vintage you want to get into.  Tonti covers a lot of years, engines, riding styles, fueling and 'lectrics, tube/tubeless wheels, tinwork, and a couple of frames.  Basing a commitment like this on the immediate availability of a particular frame could limit you.  The older your pick, the harder it is and longer it takes to piece together a year-correct bitsa.  A lot of the stuff is interchangeable at the simple project level, but a lot is not.  And when you're done, you've still got a 40-odd year-old bike.  The Cali 1100s are beginning to get parted out now, and correct parts for  90's-2004 tontis are becoming more plentiful.

That being said, if a '76 is what you want, I have correct fenders/stays and a tank that needs paint for sale.  Also correct for '76, a rusty but solid/salvageable police solo saddle pan and radio box mounts.

[SED]

I've built 2 Ariels from pieces, but both started as mostly complete bikes. If you buy pieces in chunks it will solve most of your problems, but you will still be scrambling for the little things. For Ariels it is special fasteners, washers & spacers and stupid stuff like chain guards, $1000 speedometers and unobtainium rear stands.

If you buy a bare frame and then buy wheels somewhere else, you still need the axles, spacers tin cover, cush-drive rubbers, the splines may be worn... The forks might have a steerer tube that is too long or short for the frame. While all this is solvable it will happen with every sub-assembly. Best bet would be to buy the frame you want, then buy a similar age Guzzi wreck to get most of the little parts cheap. It would also have be a complete set of parts that fit together. Differences like foot boards vs pegs are then a limited project rather than a long list of scrambles for little parts.

[Scud]

Here's a complete 1976 for $2,000. Please buy it so I will stop thinking about going to look at it. 

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/esd/mcy/6081150261.html

[chuck peterson]

I bought a disassembled SP1000 for $500....so beautiful, I put the body work in the dining room...and that's prob where it will stay...it will take $2k at least for new or rebuild calipers, brake lines, rubber bits and seals, starter rebuild, maybe a rotor, charging system, master cylinders, etc...all available from the 70-80s by the way.

Better that I find a running assembled SP, generally $3-$5k, and use the disassembled one for spare parts...

But then, I really just enjoy the wrenching UNTIL it gets in the way of riding...lots of decent presentable running guzzi out there to ride...and lots of stuff in boxes to build....Id suggest building something to ride a year or two later can be frustrating to watch, if your riding comes first...if you love cleaning derusting reprainting finding all the little bits Guzzi has that in spades and very rewarding.

Bet you can't have just one...

[Denis]

If you are determined to build one from the ground up and stick with it, you'll have something that is truly yours. It is YOUR bike and always will be.
After reading other's comments and reflecting back on my ground up project (posted earlier), I say do it. It's a great feeling when it's done and it was said earlier, but you will know more about your bike than anyone in the world!

[troyhamilton]

theres several tonti build threads, including mine!

[Denis]

Another comment I have is that there are TONS of Guzzi parts on eBay but there are a few sellers, one in particular, who sets outrageous prices for his parts and he'll never get them. Just for kicks I checked a used part he had for $24 and new it cost less that $3 and told him that.
EBay has been helpful to me in the past but in some ways it's hurt.

[Moto]

I bought my first bike, when I was 15, in two boxes: a 1959 BSA C15. Even the motor was disassembled.

Assembling and getting it going taught me a lot about motorcycle mechanics. And also to despise BSA C15's.

Moto

[turpentyne]

Scud, you tease! By the time I went to look... that posting was gone. :)

[RANDM]

I bought my first bike, when I was 15, in two boxes: a 1959 BSA C15. Even the motor was disassembled.

Assembling and getting it going taught me a lot about motorcycle mechanics. And also to despise BSA C15's.

Moto

My second bike was a '59 B33 in much the same state that I paid $80
for and had shipped by Train from Leeton to Sydney sight unseen.

Took me 15mnths ($20 a week 1st yr apprentice wages in '73) to get
on the road and inspired a very soft spot for the older BSA Singles.

  Maurie.