Shifting is suddenly very difficult

[urbansix]

2000 California Bassa here.

Out for my first long day ride of the season, yesterday, up in to the North GA mountains.  Part way through the ride, it started to become very hard to shift.  The engine was grabbing at idle.  I adusted the (almost-brand-new) clutch cable to make sure I was properly engaging the clutch.  The grabbing at idle got better or even went away, but the shifting continued to get worse.

It seems to shift pretty smooth (normal) at hard acceleration.  But at regular cruising, or especially in stop & go, it feels like I'm just forcing it.  And when I pull in the clutch lever at speed, the RPM does not drop.

So I'm assuming it's something with or within the clutch.  I don't know clutch terminology.  Springs and/or bearings appear to be  cheap, if that's what it is, but I don't know if labor for this sort of thing is "major". I don't know if any major repairs are in the budget right now, though :-(

Any ideas?

I have a local shop I have used for tires and maintenance before, that have some guzzi-experienced guys. I mean to call them on Monday. 

[urbansix]

Yeah the  clutch cable is a few months old.  I did replace it myself.  It felt & feels like it's dialed in just right, to me.  Just enough play so I know it's not pulling on the trans arm at rest, and the friction zone seems at the right spot in the lever pull.  Never had trouble finding neutral.  But I don't get any play in the arm at the trans end of the cable, fwiw.

[Wayne Orwig]

You may have a broken clutch plate. Not uncommon. Parts prices aren't bad. But it is a lot of labor.

[kirby1923]

Yeah the  clutch cable is a few months old.  I did replace it myself.  It felt & feels like it's dialed in just right, to me.  Just enough play so I know it's not pulling on the trans arm at rest, and the friction zone seems at the right spot in the lever pull.  Never had trouble finding neutral.  But I don't get any play in the arm at the trans end of the cable, fwiw.

OK.
With the machine sitting on the stand and there is about 1/8 inch play on the leaver, you need to be able to feel some movement (1/16" or more) at that arm on the trans. Just reach down and with your finger push on it and there should be movement. Otherwise it will ware out the throw out bearing quickly.
If no play something is not right and needs to be investigated. Could be, like Wayne said, a plate problem.

Needs to be addressed before more damage!

[pehayes]

Two quick checks.

First.  On the transmission lever there is an adjuster screw embedded near the pivot.  That adjuster screw has a locknut.  Did the locknut go missing?  If so, the adjuster will move while you are riding.

Second.  Look at the outer body of the throwout system.  It should be roughly flush with the edge of the rear cover casting bore.  If there is something wrong with the clutch itself, the outer body surface will be outside of the casting bore.  If there is something wrong with the throwout bearing system, the outer body will become recessed relative to the casting body bore.

Report back.  Easy enough to pull the swingarm and remove the throwout bearing for inspection.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[urbansix]

Two quick checks.

First.  On the transmission lever there is an adjuster screw embedded near the pivot.  That adjuster screw has a locknut.  Did the locknut go missing?  If so, the adjuster will move while you are riding.

Yep, all the locknuts are intact and adjusted to the best-of-my-knowledge settings.

Second.  Look at the outer body of the throwout system.  It should be roughly flush with the edge of the rear cover casting bore.  If there is something wrong with the clutch itself, the outer body surface will be outside of the casting bore.  If there is something wrong with the throwout bearing system, the outer body will become recessed relative to the casting body bore.

Report back.  Easy enough to pull the swingarm and remove the throwout bearing for inspection.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

uh..  not me [emoji32] .  For the 1/2 hour shop rate I will have someone who has done this a few times take a look at it.  Thought I would take it in yesterday, but the shop I have used before (non-brand-specific race tuning and service shop with some ex-guzzi specialists) is no longer open weekends.  I will try it this week. [emoji106]

[urbansix]

Update;
I took it to a local Vespa/Guzzi shop.  They tried adjusting the clutch cable, first, to see if that fixed it.  It seemed to fix it on their test ride.  And when I told them the cable was fairly new, they said that makes sense, since new cables tend to stretch some during a break in period.  So I took it out for a longer ride.  The pulling at idle was gone, but it was still very clunky and difficult to shift, seemingly at random times (maybe relative to RPM or accel/decel g's)  especially around 2nd and sometime 3rd, 

Then just a few miles from my house, the shift linkage snapped off at the rear ball joint, during a very hard shift in to 3rd.  That is the second time this has happened, in the last year.  Fortunately I was able to ride home in 3rd.  the last time I was stuck in neutral and had to get a tow.

I was wondering if a mis-adjusted linkage could cause the shifting to feel hard like that.  Seems like it would only cause "slop" in the shifting setup, but the angles & leverage would be the same.  But I don;t know.  Just spitballing.

For what it's worth, that tiny little part is $38 at one place and out of stock at the other.

[fotoguzzi]

You may have a broken clutch plate. Not uncommon. Parts prices aren't bad. But it is a lot of labor.

:1: if it is I wouldn't ride too far from home..

maybe the cable mid point adjustment is off, down where the cable is fixed to the side of transmission. ?

[Rich A]

Check and make sure the bushing for the shifter pedal is ok and the pedal moves freely. I replaced that bushing once but didn't ream it out enough. When it got hot the shifter would bind.

Prolly not this, but it's a 5 second check.

Rich A

[pressureangle]

My LeMans did that a few hundred miles after rebuild, turned out that I'd not properly torqued the output shaft nut, which came loose and let everything drift around. Nothing was damaged, the shift forks showed that they got leaned on but in the end it was all ok with just a proper torquing.

[urbansix]

My LeMans did that a few hundred miles after rebuild, turned out that I'd not properly torqued the output shaft nut, which came loose and let everything drift around. Nothing was damaged, the shift forks showed that they got leaned on but in the end it was all ok with just a proper torquing.

Would that be nut #5 in the diagram with this article?  Is the article talking about the same thing you are, in general?  I have not been able to check it since finding this article, but everything downstream of the long linkage rod seems tight and tidy.

Is there a guide to adjusting or tuning the linkage anywhere?

[pressureangle]

Would that be nut #5 in the diagram with this article?  Is the article talking about the same thing you are, in general?  I have not been able to check it since finding this article, but everything downstream of the long linkage rod seems tight and tidy.

Is there a guide to adjusting or tuning the linkage anywhere?

No, not the linkage at all; The nut that holds the actual splined shaft that goes into your driveshaft universal. In the back of the transmission. You'll have to pull the swingarm off to see it.

[fotoguzzi]

this article?   

That's an interesting site that I've not seen before.. Is John Clay a member here?

[urbansix]

Two quick checks.

First.  On the transmission lever there is an adjuster screw embedded near the pivot.  That adjuster screw has a locknut.  Did the locknut go missing?  If so, the adjuster will move while you are riding.

Second.  Look at the outer body of the throwout system.  It should be roughly flush with the edge of the rear cover casting bore.  If there is something wrong with the clutch itself, the outer body surface will be outside of the casting bore.  If there is something wrong with the throwout bearing system, the outer body will become recessed relative to the casting body bore.

Report back.  Easy enough to pull the swingarm and remove the throwout bearing for inspection.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

  I finally have a free-enough weekend to tinker, and got around to figuring out what you were talking about here.  So...

1) The locknut is in place and tight.
2)How flush is "roughly flush"?  The outer body stick out a tiny bit proud of the casting body .  We are talking ~1mm.  Not sure if that's flush, or considered outside.

3) Hey, the lever return spring is missing!  I do not know if I just lost it since I disconnected the cable, and it bounced away while I wasn't looking, or if it's been gone since the last time I worked on the cable, or had it in the shop.  Would the missing spring cause any weird symptoms?

4) Also - how in god's name does one adjust the clutch cable at the transmission end?  It's impossible to get any tool I could imagine between the frame and the casting body.  With the cable unattached (tension off) I can manage to adjust with my fingers, but I can't get the locknut tight.  Thus the main adjustment threading just floats freely.  Possibly could this be a culprit in the cable constantly jiggling out of adjustment?  When I had it in the shop a few weeks ago, they eventually decided it was probably just the cable adjustment/stretching.  But I don't know if they did anything at the transmission end.  It was loose when I started working on it today.

[kfz]

4) Also - how in god's name does one adjust the clutch cable at the transmission end?  It's impossible to get any tool I could imagine between the frame and the casting body. 

Put the bike on the lift, what do mean you dont have a lift.

13mm spanner and a set of needle nose pliers.  just loosen of and work the adjuster round.  You aiming for discernible play in the lever.

Kev

[Zoom Zoom]

You mentioned your cable snapped again.

When you pull the clutch lever, is it pulling hard? I have seen where a friend was going through cables and when I went over to help replace one I realized the pivot pin on the lever on the back of the trans was binding and making the lever very hard to move in the first place. While you have the cable disconnected, make sure it moves very easily. If it does not, you can spray some penetrating pol in there and work it back and forth until it does. It should hinge in and out freely.

As for your missing spring, you need to obtain a replacement. It pushes the lever out and away from the throw out bearing when you release the clutch lever. You will need to pay attention to where you put the spring. It does not go where you first think between the arm and trans body.

Once the arm is moving freely, (if it is not already), and the spring is in its proper location, you can reconnect the cable and make the necessary adjustments.

You may also take a look at the linkage from the shift lever to the trans. If one of the ball joints get lose, you can have trouble shifting.

John Henry

[urbansix]

You mentioned your cable snapped again.
(...)
You may also take a look at the linkage from the shift lever to the trans. If one of the ball joints get lose, you can have trouble shifting.

John Henry

It was the ball joint that snapped.  Looseness may indeed have contributed to that problem.  Fortunately I found a few extra ball joints on some spare linkage parts in the bin.

Return spring ordered. Willl try it all again when that comes in.