Need help timing!

[Thirtyaughtsix]

So I'm timing my 850t for my first time ever and it's been nothing but a nightmarish hellscape for me lol. I tried to gather and learn as much as I could before posting, but here's what I got:

Plugs gapped to spec, caps, plug wire, their boots, coils are all brand new. Points are cleaned and have 31k miles on them fwiw, point gap has been set (although I think I'm going to go back and redo it), brand new Bender main harness. The condensers are NOT new. I can get her to start, but my cylinder(s) don't seem to want to run consistently. The right side seems to want to run the most, then the left sometimes, and least commonly both at once. The little wiring I have that isn't brand new in that area has had a copper brush over its spades. Have tried swapping lefts with rights but nothing still will work consistently.

The one consistency however is that both sides are running verrrrrry rich, black cloud of premium out the mufflers, plugs coming out dripping black type of rich. Chokes and their o-rings are brand new, currently no air filters, carb slides are in the correct orientation and the throttle cables have plenty of freeplay. Focusing on the right, it seems sorta picky running and runs rich no matter which way I turn the distributor for adjustment.

I'm guessing I'll have to play with the carbs yet, floats and their needles perhaps, but I'm not sure how big a role the distributor plays before carb issues are factored, in other words if all of my current problems are entirely a timing fault or not. I'm armed with the Haynes manual and Guzziology but with how the Haynes is worded and Guzziology's lacking pictures combined with discrepancies between the two (Haynes claims TDC flywheel marking is the letters D+S, ology claims it's the line above), it hasn't been a good time. They both want my to time to advance/dynamic when I can barely get either side idling. I can confirm the flywheel is installed correctly and that I am considering the lines above D and S to be TDC for their respective cylinders.

I'm guessing my issue is electrical yet though if I can get both cylinders to run but not stay that way. I'm leaning towards condensers but am unsure how big a role they play, Guzziology doubts they're bad but I know my luck. What should I do?

[SED]

Sounds like you are feeding it too much fuel.

However...
There are 3 timing marks per cylinder. D and S mark TDC.

Apologies if this is too obvious: To get ready to time it, put the bike on the center stand, pull both plugs, pull the gas tank, put the bike in 5th gear, get a bright trouble light or flashlight and kneel down next to the timing window and shine the light into the window so you can see the flywheel well. Rotate the rear wheel in the direction of travel and the flywheel and marks will move from bottom to top in the timing window. As you rotate the first mark you see will be a line or dot that is the full advance that the engine achieves when running 4,000 rpm or so. The second mark is the static timing mark to which you set the distributor (after the points have been set). The third mark is TDC with D or S. Rotate it several revolutions so you see the pattern. If I recall you see first the 3 marks on the S side and then the 3 on the D side.  Then rotate the rear wheel and hold your thumb over the right side plug hole. As the engine comes up on compression on the right ("Dis side") your thumb will stop the rotation and you will see the 3 marks as you slowly approach TDC. (If there is any question, pull the rocker covers and confirm the valve rockers are not pushing on valves.)

Get the static timing mark in the center of the window, insert the distributor with the rotor pointing to the correct plugwire on the cap (put a mark on the distributor body) connect an ohm meter or test light between the point ground and the moving point and rotate the distributor. When the points open (light goes out) and the static mark is in the center of the window, that side is static timed. Tighten the distributor. You can then bounce the rear wheel back and forth and confirm that distributor is set correctly.

Time the other side by rotating the engine so that the S static mark is in the window and adjusting the point assembly or gap so that it is just opening (light going out). You can probably wiggle or rotate the distributor shaft to confirm you are close. This will be good enough to start and run.  After you get it running well at idle you can shine a strobe light on the flywheel and see that it flashes near the static mark at idle and when you rev it to 4,000 rpm that you see the full advance mark in the window.

[SED]

Black clouds of smoke make me think stuck floats or stuck chokes. What is happening with the chokes?

If you can confirm that the chokes are off, then you might just turn off the fuel taps, start the bike and run the engine. If the engine runs better as the fuel level in the float bowl drops, it might just be a float adjustment.

[SED]

Condensors should be replaced.  According to the magneto experts, condensers can degrade sitting on the shelf. I think they mostly cause problems when hot or at high rpm, but worth replacing.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'm guessing I'll have to play with the carbs yet, floats and their needles perhaps,

If you haven't done that yet, floats, needles, seats need looked at.

[Thirtyaughtsix]

Ok thank you, I'll post back in a day or 2 with what I find

[Thirtyaughtsix]

Would anyone nearish northwest Ohio want to do this for me? I hate to concede defeat but I think I'm too far out of my league here

[Idontwantapickle]

The one consistency however is that both sides are running verrrrrry rich, black cloud of premium out the mufflers, plugs coming out dripping black type of rich.

This is the classic slides in backwards symptom. Make sure the longer flat face of the slide is on the engine side of the carb. If they are right then most likely there is a part missing in the needle/atomizer/pump assembly. Maybe you can pull one apart and post a photo of what you have?
Take a breath and look at it with a new perspective, you can solve it!
Hunter

[redrider90]

Check your plugs with and ohm meter. They should read 4-5K ohms. Make sure you have good ground for your plugs.  Check your NEW coils with an ohm meter. What brand of coils are they. Do not assume your coils are good. Check you condensers with an OHM meter to see if they are any good. If you do not have an OHM meter they are dirt cheap everywhere. All of the above things can be found on You Tube.
 Have you pulled out the distributor while working on this?  If so you have to make sure you install in correctly. All those instructions should be in Haynes or Guzziology. Setting points is explained in Haynes. You obviously cannot set the advanced if the engine cannot get to 4K RPMs. You need to set the opening gap as described in Haynes. You will need an ohm meter or a circuit line tester to determine when the points open. Again this stuff is dirt cheap at auto parts stores, radio shack.
Read what Dave Richardson says about spark plug boots in Guzzi. You might have too much resistance. What kind of boots did you install.

Was this running correctly before you started this project? I wouldn't check the carbs until I had the ignition/timing sorted out.

[redrider90]

So I realize this is a restoration and was a barn find and this is the first try at getting it running. Phew. Still back to getting all the electronics sorted out. First testing all relevant parts to make sure they are functioning and then going back to make sure the dizzy was installed correctly as he must have had it out during the engine restore. Then check points at static timing mark which is the "retard" mark as seen on the Haynes manual.
Have the carbs be rebuilt?  Because all you mention is the choke and the slides?
I rebuilt a 68 Olds Cutlass convertible. First attempt at firing it shot flames through the carb. I immediately pulled the dizzy, rotated it 180 degrees and it fired right off. So stuff happens. I put a time belt on a Honda Civic and it slipped off one tooth. Got it back together and it ran like crap. Pulled it apart and found that that it was one tooth off. It was extremely easy on that for the cam to move. You had to hold it right on the marks when installing the belt.
So go back to square one on the ignition. Also did you set your valves correctly? It sounds from you previous posts that you had the top of the engine off and put in new sleeves. So you could surely understand the valves and the flywheel. Haynes picture is correct sort of. AS you never see all 3 marks in the window at the same time. As you bring the flywheel slowly around the first mark will be the advanced mark. Then everything is blank and then you see either S or D depending the cylinder appear with 2 horizontal lines.  The line above S/D is the static retard timing line you use to set the points when they first open. The last line right next to S/D is the TDC mark which is not relevant for ignition timing.
I still say check all connections, test parts even new ones and then start at he dizzy and work from there.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, he did say

The one consistency however is that both sides are running verrrrrry rich, black cloud of premium out the mufflers, plugs coming out dripping black type of rich. Chokes and their o-rings are brand new, currently no air filters, carb slides are in the correct orientation and the throttle cables have plenty of freeplay.

To that I would add, Have you checked to make sure the choke plungers are bottoming in their well? And.... one time a guy called me to look at his carb that was running super rich, and the main jet was laying in the bowl. 

[redrider90]

Well, he did say
To that I would add, Have you checked to make sure the choke plungers are bottoming in their well? And.... one time a guy called me to look at his carb that was running super rich, and the main jet was laying in the bowl. 

Yes but did he have the carbs completely apart? That is not clear in this post.

[Two Checks]

insert the distributor with the rotor pointing to the correct plugwire on the cap

There arent any plug wires on the cap of a T.

[guzzisteve]

Don't worry about the carbs, you do them last, just concentrate on timing ea cyl on the money. Use a timing light in the hole w/plugs out & grounded. File them & gap them, adjust the gap  to specs. One may need to be 15thou and the other 17thou but sparking on the same mark BTC. THEN you can turn the dizzy if needed w/running w/plugs in. Once that is done the next step is carbs. 

Otherwise you are just chasing your tail.
Order is-- 1 Set valve clearance 2 Set timing 3 set carbs

Are you anywhere near Arlington, OH?

[redrider90]

 I just went through a problem with my bike misfiring on one side. I started with the valves and carb but I knew the timing was spot on because I had replaced the leaking dizzy gasket not long ago and checked the timing with a strobe afterwards.  So after it was all said and done I had a bad plug that was causing the misfiring. It literally showed 0 ohms. But it would fire. The spark was brown and not blue.  The plug was sooty and smelled of gas and the exhaust popped when I put my hand over it.  That is why you have to check you electronic parts especially because some of his parts are used like the plugs and condensers. When I dug into my box of used plugs I found I had a number of bad plugs.  And even with new parts it only takes a moment to check new coils although its unlikely to have 2 new bad coils.

[guzzisteve]

If you use the same sequence on every tune, you will get the same result ea time.  Nowdays if I do points I have to use a big magnifying glass to see they are strait w/opening. Had a set last 70K mi on a G5.

[Thirtyaughtsix]

Ok so! After taking a step back for a bit I can at least reply and maybe fill in some info gaps here real quick, sans quoting anyone: The carb slides are 100% in the correct way; I do have an ohm meter and will check all the electric stuff next time I'm out; coils are mototec from mgcycle; distributor was pulled out and reinstalled forever ago, I'm guessing incorrectly; bike took right off before it was torn apart; carbs have not been "rebuilt" I would say, cleaned more than once and they have new floats/jets/float needles; valves gapped to spec; choke completely shuts off the little window in the carb, unless the rubber end of it if bad somehow I'd say they're working; carbs were COMPLETELY apart once yes to clean; I am sorta near Arlington yes! 39 minutes says google, I'm in Fostoria, my bike is in Upper Sandusky. I befriended my maintenance guy at work who taught me restoration and is providing the facilities for it hence the different town. Always befriend your maintenance guy.

I think I got everyone there. As I mentioned earlier I reinstalled the distributor months ago when the block was still off the frame and I had felt confident in it then but now I've taken it out and put in new wiring and points. I don't think they were to fault to begin with but I'd rather have one less variable to consider if things continue to fly south. I'll ohm check everything next and take another stab at installing the distributor and see where I'm at

[guzzisteve]

I spent the night camped out in the yard behind Theils Wheels, Bout 15yrs ago w/bald tire. Ran into the owner at 2 AM at a gas station after he worked all night on a HD drag bike. They had a tire, I mounted it and was on my way. My tire was through to the tube, completely used up.
I have a Guzzi friend in Arlington, worked on his bikes.

[redrider90]

and take another stab at installing the distributor and see where I'm at

This is when TDC on the flywheel means something when it comes to timing. Gotta do it on the compression stroke. If I am close enough when looking through the window where I can see the retard and TDC horizontal lines I use a flat head screw driver in the flywheel hole and slowly move the flywheel until my horizontal line S or D is perfectly in line with the horizontal mark on the outer case.

[Thirtyaughtsix]

I spent the night camped out in the yard behind Theils Wheels, Bout 15yrs ago w/bald tire. Ran into the owner at 2 AM at a gas station after he worked all night on a HD drag bike. They had a tire, I mounted it and was on my way. My tire was through to the tube, completely used up.
I have a Guzzi friend in Arlington, worked on his bikes.

You're kidding! My bike is 5 at most 6 minutes up the road from there, small world!

[Thirtyaughtsix]

This is when TDC on the flywheel means something when it comes to timing. Gotta do it on the compression stroke. If I am close enough when looking through the window where I can see the retard and TDC horizontal lines I use a flat head screw driver in the flywheel hole and slowly move the flywheel until my horizontal line S or D is perfectly in line with the horizontal mark on the outer case.

Compression stroke being valves closed, rocker arms have room to play correct? Just to be absolutely certain and idiot proof. Does it matter what the left side is doing?

[Thirtyaughtsix]

I got it! It went back in and the whole thing turned right over, I even went up to the road a 1/2 mile and back on it without fine tuning anything.

However, my tranny vent is still spitting up lube which is for a different post, but my throttle cables are giving me trouble:



While I have the rubber boot I'm lacking the little retaining pin type thing for right here and Gordon from mgcycle has told me they quit making them years ago. What I originally thought was poor timing and idle being off was just this, these weren't fully seated and moving all over whenever I played with the throttle. Throttle comes right back down if I pull the cables on my own. Can anyone suggest any clever way to deal with this?

[RinkRat II]

 Safety Wire .

   Paul B

[guzzisteve]

Make one out of a paper clip or thicker wire if you can find it.