NGC - trouble getting old F150 to start (solved)

[Matt Story]

Thanks for looking.  I'm stumped as is my go to mechanic jack of all trades friend.

This is my beater truck (94 f150 straight 6 5 speed 2wd 130K) that acts as my backup to my daily driver and kept for utility purposes mainly.  Started having issues turning over to start last summer.  Jumping with a hand held jump pack worked a few times.  Truck sat for 3+ months thru the winter.  Was surprised when I tried to start it 2 weeks ago that it fired right up.  I was expecting the battery to need a boost.  Drove it 40 miles, shut it off and wouldn't turn over.  Only clicking at the starter solenoid.  Same thing since. 

I think I've tested and/or replaced all the relevant parts.  Thus a query to the oracle of knowledge...

I suspected the starter and since I knew it had a lifetime guarantee from when I replaced it back in 2000 I opted for a replacement from Autozone.  No questions asked.  Since the truck is so old I went ahead and replaced both battery cables and the fender mounted starter relay that Ford equips.

Results were the same.  Fender relay clicks.  Starter solenoid thunks and draws battery down to ~11.5v from a static 12.6.  No turning.  Exactly same as with old starter and wires.

Put battery on to charge for a couple hours, and found a way to bump start from a tow.  Just for kicks, checked battery voltage while idling ~ 15.5V.  Alternator good, probably not relevant.   Warmed it over another 30 mile ride, and found the symptoms to be the same.

Battery problem?  Took it in to have checked.  One store said it tested at 645CA & OK.  This battery's new rating is 750CA.  Was skeptical so went to another and they agreed.  Although I charged it, I don't think I had a dead condition or low charge at any point.  Ford spec is 650CA.  Maybe not enough for an old motor?

Motor not bound up, it can be bump started easily.  Won't respond to a jump start.  Unfortunately I don't happen to live on a hill. 

The whole starter circuit is new, and the battery is supposedly good.  My hunch is still on the battery.  Don't want to change more parts without a solid theory.  So far thanks to Rock Auto & Autozone, only into it for about $60 and about 4hrs so far.

Anyone like to share opinions or experience?

Thanks again...

[RinkRat II]

    Starter not getting good ground to the block, block to frame ground faulty, bad starter. My $.02

       Paul B

[Matt Story]

Thanks RinkRat.  On this starter, the battery ground connects directly to the starter.  With the battery --> starter circuit as a simple direct loop, would block ground matter to the starting circuit?  I have no intention to argue anyone trying to help.  I'm surely not an expert and trying to understand.

[RinkRat II]

 Hi Matt,
  I take it the ground on the starter is under the head of the mounting bolt. All surfaces clean and shiny to make a good connection?
    Might try running a jumper cable from the neg post on the batt to the starter mount just to check.

   Paul

[guzzista]

I have found a few ( 1 piece)  positive clamp/cable internal separation on Fords causing vehicle not to start at times. A general due diligence  on that type of clamp is to chop off the original clamp and install a bolt on lead clamp such as this https://www.delcity.net/images/photos/450px/908885_primary_450px.jpg?v=20170424183103 . Sometimes jiggling the cable at the positive terminal while testing voltage drop between battery post and  end of cable at starter  will show significant drop.

[SED]

Jumper the solenoid to bypass the ignition switch? 

Hit starter with hammer?   

(if it needs the hammer I'm guessing bad bushing in brush end of starter)

Is it an AGM battery?

[Matt Story]

Jumper the solenoid to bypass the ignition switch? 

Hit starter with hammer?   

(if it needs the hammer I'm guessing bad bushing in brush end of starter)

Is it an AGM battery?

I cold try a jumper to bypass the fender mounted relay directly to the solenoid.  For those unaware of the Ford way; the ignition switch activates a relay on the passenger fender which connects power to the starter solenoid.  Currently, my fender mounted relay is energizing, as is the starter solenoid.  The coil side of the relay can be energized (jumpered) bypassing the ignition switch.  The relay power terminals can be crossed bypassing the both the relay and the ignition switch - which I have done.

It is a new starter.  According to the package, tested 3x...

Lead acid battery

I have found a few ( 1 piece)  positive clamp/cable internal separation on Fords causing vehicle not to start at times. A general due diligence  on that type of clamp is to chop off the original clamp and install a bolt on lead clamp such as this https://www.delcity.net/images/photos/450px/908885_primary_450px.jpg?v=20170424183103 . Sometimes jiggling the cable at the positive terminal while testing voltage drop between battery post and  end of cable at starter  will show significant drop.

I'll try this, maybe buy a couple of lead terminals because they are cheap and easy.  The terminals that came on the new cables are the sheet metal type.  It is a top post battery.

Hi Matt,
  I take it the ground on the starter is under the head of the mounting bolt. All surfaces clean and shiny to make a good connection?
    Might try running a jumper cable from the neg post on the batt to the starter mount just to check.

   Paul

Yes, both the starter and ground cable are brand new.  I should try that jumper as well.

I replaced the clutch about a year ago, and retained the original flywheel, but had it turned.  I don't think I have a mechanical alignment issue.  No gear grinding (no spinning either) and this is design is new enough that the starter is piloted into the block with no shims being necessary.  Never had any issue with this flywheel and didn't notice anything special about the gear teeth when it was out.

I've posted on an F150 forum, but the traffic there is pretty light especially when it comes to these antiques.  They are old, and certainly not classics.

[rtbickel]

Bad connection in the steering column at the ignition switch?

[oldbike54]

 Neighbors Ford straight 6 did the same thing , he replaced all of the same stuff . He had it hauled off after cussing it for a month , I saw it about a week later going up the road , followed the truck , asked the guy driving how he fixed it . Bad neutral safety switch on the transmission . Dunno .

 Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

FWIW. BIL Harley Bob used to be the "guy" that oversaw the rebuilding of Delco Remy starters for Autozone. They were the kings of cheap. When he would complain to them about component quality so bad they would have 20-30% failure rates right out of the box, they would say, "That doesn't matter. The customer will bring it back, and we will sell them something out of the sale end cap or at the register when they return it. That is where our profit is."
So. Don't rule out the starter because it is "new." At least test it.

[Matt Story]

Figured it out.  Ya, bad quality control issue.  Hammered on starter sol electrically (jumping fender relay) rapidly 20-30 times.  Began to spin.  Just tried more out of fustration, not much logic.  Ok now I think.

Thanks everyone

[oldbike54]

 

 Dusty

[JoeW]

In 1995, I Replaced my 86 f150 with 160k on it with a one year old 94 f150. I liked the 94 but, by 40k miles I replace the starter 3 times, took to stashing a hammer under the seat (Ford wrench) to keep from getting stranded.  the starter acted just like yours. It usually failed when hot, solonoid would just click, give it a whack and off you go. Unlike the 86, the 94 had a permanent magnet starter but, still had the old style starter solonoid on the inner fender, it was just used as a relay. After the third PM starter failed, I installed the old style Ford starter using the existing remote solonoid as it was intended. I sold the truck with over 150k on it and never had a starter problem again.

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[yogidozer]

Figured it out.  Ya, bad quality control issue.  Hammered on starter sol electrically (jumping fender relay) rapidly 20-30 times.  Began to spin.  Just tried more out of fustration, not much logic.  Ok now I think.

Thanks everyone

hammers, never leave home w/o one

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Rig the truck so that when you pull a handle under the dash, a built in hammer activates that will hit the starter.

[RinkRat II]

 Glad to hear you solved the dilemma     Now go hide your Easter Eggs.

        Paul B
     
     

[Chuck in Indiana]

Like I said..

So. Don't rule out the starter because it is "new." At least test it.

AZ rebuilt parts suck.