Norge vs. BMW RT

[Lannis]

That is the way I feel about my commute near Seattle. 20 miles on I-405 usually takes an hour with most of that on a 5 mile stretch from Bellevue south. I have a company truck at my disposal and many days I will leave the bike in the parking garage at work if traffic is all balled up.
I have just about had it with the Seattle area. Gonna exploit the economy as much as possible for the next couple years and then head for the hills. Permanently.

All these "commute in big cities" stories validate (at least in my own mind, where it matters) my decision years ago, to "head for the hills" before I even started to get into those kind of commutes.

Lived in Atlanta for 3 years, and Denver for one.   Lived in the city, and commuted by bus and train, and then got away, where my commute was 3/4 rural roads.

Didn't make as much money as I could have in "the big city", but you can't put a price on quality of life, either .....

Lannis

[Vince in Milwaukee]

Besides spending way too much time on here when I should be out riding  , I also spend a lot of "unproductive" time on face book.  Anyways, there are a few R1200RT owners over there hitting 100,000 miles without a bit of trouble.  One guy absolutely loves his.  I don't think that you can go wrong either way.  The cost factor would have me leaning toward the Norge, but that's just my thrifty self.     

[Tusayan]

Most here that ride BMW don't really give a D***n what you think about beemers, so why do you persist on telling us how bad they are.

I'll be riding my BMW from Munich to Hamburg to Berlin and back starting on Tuesday and it has 100,000 miles currently on the clock, so I think you can count me among BMW riders.  What has become quite apparent to me over 25 years or so since I started owning and riding them in parallel with my other bikes is the obscene increase in costs associated with them, both in terms of original purchase cost, plus much increased depreciation and maintenance costs.  I think its the sheer shock of seeing that occur to a marque that earned its current reputation being exactly the opposite,  plus the manipulative way that BMW designs-in dealer service into 2018 models, that provokes my reaction.

Although some probably don't (or wouldn't) care, I think many BMW buyers today have no idea of what they're buying into.  For example, a friend at work bought a used K1600 in good condition and was a bit shocked when the first time the dealer service light came on he took it to the dealer saying to "do what BMW recommends" and was presented with a $4K estimate.  That came down to $3200 after some discussion.  Likewise a flying friend with an R-bike who told me on Saturday that he's looking at a $1600 estimate for what i'd consider routine service (not including resealing his Ohlins shocks).    A good friend and fellow European touring rider owns the BMW dealership... and with that in mind I suggested only that he might want to look at a DL1000.

Whether you or anybody approves of any of the above, or not, is relatively unimportant to me.

[JeffOlson]

I almost rode today. At the last minute, I decided to drive. I am glad I did. Olympia to Vancouver was breeze. Portland, however, was another matter. Sigh�

My point in this thread was not to slam BMW but to say that my justification for riding one has faded: riding to work is no longer a good option. I have had about 20 BMW cars over the years, including three 7 Series, so I am not afraid of them, but it seems foolish to drop $25,000 on a bike and not ride it much when my Norge is perfectly adequate for now.

[Scud]

...but it seems foolish to drop $25,000 on a bike and not ride it much when my Norge is perfectly adequate for now.

Yup, that seems the basic point here. Now, for $5,000 or less, you can get a used, low-mile Ducati ST3 that will flat out smoke that BMW, while being just as comfortable. I'm enjoying mine quite a lot. Pardon the thread drift into Ducati-land.

[JeffOlson]

I miss my ST2. So does my wife. That was her favorite bike for riding behind me. The Norge is a bit of an old man's bike to her compared to the Ducati. (Any bike that gets my wife excited is a good bike!)

I've been looking at the new Ducati SuperSport, but the passenger accommodations suck compared to the STs...

Here's the bike that always got my wife excited:

[Tusayan]

The STs depreciated as fast as a BMW and faster than just about any other Ducati, but the upside is that given their 90s Ducati design they can be maintained indefinitely by a diligent owner with time on his hands but nothing special in the workshop. $5K is about right for a really mint, low mileage example. They are still maybe the best overall performing factory hard bag equipped touring bike you can get.  This one is only a ST4, not an S but it makes 110 RWHP and handles well.  An ST2 seems to settle in to an 80 mph cruise speed, this one feels good with passenger and loaded bags at a 90 mph cruise, right in the midrange.





If I had to recommend one, I'd personally recommend the nicest ST2 you could find.

[Huzo]

The BMW will always come up trumps on paper...
Trouble is, we don't ride on paper..!

[Nic in Western NYS]

The STs depreciated as fast as a BMW and faster than just about any other Ducati, but the upside is that given their 90s Ducati design they can be maintained indefinitely by a diligent owner with time on his hands but nothing special in the workshop. $5K is about right for a really mint, low mileage example. They are still maybe the best overall performing factory hard bag equipped touring bike you can get.  This one is only a ST4, not an S but it makes 110 RWHP and handles well.  An ST2 seems to settle in to an 80 mph cruise speed, this one feels good with passenger and loaded bags at a 90 mph cruise, right in the midrange.





If I had to recommend one, I'd personally recommend the nicest ST2 you could find.

New ST was about $11K, it's now at $3-5K 20 years later. That ain't in the same league as BMW depreciation.  Just sayin

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yup, that seems the basic point here. Now, for $5,000 or less, you can get a used, low-mile Ducati ST3 that will flat out smoke that BMW, while being just as comfortable. I'm enjoying mine quite a lot. Pardon the thread drift into Ducati-land.

That's a fact.. great handling, comfortable for a Sport tourer, easy to maintain. (for a Duck)

[Nic in Western NYS]

Guilty for Duc-hijacking the thread.  Just got mine back on the road, properly tagged for NYS and am smiling ear to ear.

[blackcat]

As Leafman has told me with regard to his newish GS, either get an extended warranty or sell before the factory warranty runs out.    And if you like changing your own oil, plan on paying the dealer $50 bucks or pack up with some folks to buy the computer device to turn off the maintenance light.

Even with the minor problems that I have had with my Norge, at 70K miles it has never been back to a dealer and I've never had to give someone $50 bucks to turn off a light.

[Lcarlson]

I’ve had one of my BMWs for sixteen years and have had no extraordinary repair issues — just the routine maintenance you would expect.

[Sheepdog]

I’ve had no trouble with my ‘16 BMW. The first service was reasonably priced; under $300. The next will be more, as I will need tires. My ‘60 BMW never gave me any trouble, either...not even once.

[kirby1923]

My '04 Rockster (r1150r) is very high mileage and has only been to a dealer for the first (600 mi) check.
But I keep a log book and do aircraft type inspections/maintence.

The reason I have stuck to the 1150 is you CAN maintain it at home. The most sophisticated tool I have to have is a good digital meter.

I will never sell the rockster, might give it away when THE time comes, same for the CX

My old Guzzi has had its troubles but always has made it to the barn under its own power. Its easy to maintain and we have become good friends!(like my beemer).

:-)

[JeffOlson]

I imagine BMW has its share of lemons. However, I cannot believe all of their stuff is junk. If it were, they would not be selling everything they can screw together.

My latest 7 Series had an issue. The dealer could not fix it. So the factory engineers got involved, diagnosed the issue, and told the dealer how to repair it. It took quite a while, but in the meantime, the dealer made my payments for me and gave me another 7 Series as a loaner.

If I were to buy a BMW motorcycle, I would demand similar treatment from the dealer, and I expect I would receive it...

[mjptexas]

If I were to buy a BMW motorcycle, I would demand similar treatment from the dealer, and I expect I would receive it...

Good luck with that.  I'd be really surprised if you see that level of service from the average BMW motorcycle dealer. 

[Tusayan]

As Leafman has told me with regard to his newish GS, either get an extended warranty or sell before the factory warranty runs out.    And if you like changing your own oil, plan on paying the dealer $50 bucks or pack up with some folks to buy the computer device to turn off the maintenance light.

Even with the minor problems that I have had with my Norge, at 70K miles it has never been back to a dealer and I've never had to give someone $50 bucks to turn off a light.

I'd agree but be careful with extended warranties.   My local US friend (the BMW franchised dealer) has had a customer's bike waiting for a gearbox part for 6 months because the extended warranty company will not pay for a whole new gearbox, but BMW does not always stock the individual part in either the US or Germany.  They order a few periodically from ZF or whoever, but if they run out they do not restock until the next scheduled order.  BMW expects that the whole gearbox will be replaced as the normal procedure.  If you don't agree $$$$, you may be screwed for parts even if the franchised dealer has the latitude and skills to overhaul the gearbox.

Meanwhile, 6000 miles away at another dealer, in related news    this weeks story is a friends 2005 R1200GS that has just had the gearbox, drive shaft and rear drive unit all replaced at 50K miles.   Actually the work was done by an independent BMW mechanic who now due to 30 years seniority works his day job as a service writer (not a mechanic) at the BMW factory owned dealer, with side work to make extra money.  The gearbox could be overhauled by him, whereas the factory-owned dealer strictly replaces and does not rebuild gearboxes.  They've built so many types that BMW can no longer train the line mechanics to that level.  The bill was $2500, but would have been a great deal more if done by the dealer with an all new gearbox, and not as a special deal.

 

[JeffOlson]

Really? Is that too much? Well, I would pay extra for that. And I really would expect it if I had a lemon like some of the people here seem to have encountered. But perhaps the car part of the business is different...

[Darren Williams]

I really enjoy riding and traveling on my 2007 R1200GS. It has the ABS pump issue that is common on them at 35,000 to 50,000 miles and cost $2600 just for the pump and another $1200 to install it. The TPMS have gone out (batteries went dead and are non-replaceable) and are $141 each with a $50 reprograming fee. I recently put new shocks front and back, as originals went bad.

Love the bike but costs are way more than most other brands.

[JeffOlson]

^ Ouch! That is like a car repair bill.

[LowRyter]

Good luck with that.  I'd be really surprised if you see that level of service from the average BMW motorcycle dealer.

Like I said before,  I don't understand this thread.  I know my brother told me that "he's glad he bought the extended warranty" with his K1600 'cause the front shock was $2800.  He said he won't bother with the 30k valve  check because of his out of pocket.  I know a guy that said "he's glad he bought the extended warranty" for his R1200R because the fork replacement was $1800.  I know a guy on this board that has a 10 year old GS with a ABS light on because the ABS pump costs $3k. ...   

Even though I don't know the purpose of this thread, but I've shied away from a Beemer R1200RT because of this crap.  It ain't because I can't afford it but because of my BS sensor and I don't like to think of myself as a sucker.

It's a free country (for now), buy what you want (and I still don't know what this thread is supposed to be about). 

[LowRyter]

I really enjoy riding and traveling on my 2007 R1200GS. It has the ABS pump issue that is common on them at 35,000 to 50,000 miles and cost $2600 just for the pump and another $1200 to install it. The TPMS have gone out (batteries went dead and are non-replaceable) and are $141 each with a $50 reprograming fee. I recently put new shocks front and back, as originals went bad.

Love the bike but costs are way more than most other brands.

I just think I referred to you in the post above.

[JeffOlson]

The point of this thread was this:

1. I wanted to get a new bike because I thought I would like it more on the freeway and might actually ride it more to work.

2. But when I experienced once again how horrible Portland traffic is, I realized I would not ride it more. I will drive my car instead.

3. Therefore, my rationalization for the added expense of the new bike evaporated, so I am am staying with my Norge.

[LowRyter]

The point of this thread was this:

1. I wanted to get a new bike because I thought I would like it more on the freeway and might actually ride it more to work.

2. But when I experienced once again how horrible Portland traffic is, I realized I would not ride it more. I will drive my car instead.

3. Therefore, my rationalization for the added expense of the new bike evaporated, so I am am staying with my Norge.

That wasn't very clear to me.  It started as comparison between the RT and Norge but the text was about bad traffic.

So because only you knew what this was about, did the comments match your expectations? 

I thought the comments were pretty random based on the mismatch of text to title. 

[Darren Williams]

I got Jeff's message OK. Long commute and wanting a more comfortable highway bike, but traffic congestion makes setting on any bike at a standstill not enjoyable. So a car makes more sense.

Then the campfire thread drift takes over comparing a Norge (which Jeff has and will stick with for pleasure riding duties) to the RT, and of course cost of ownership enters the conversation, with owner examples of older, less complicated "gadgetty" machines verses the newer ones with the expensive to maintain expresso dispensing handlebars.

I love a good camp fire discussion.

Jeff, I agree with your reasoning and logic. Sounds like you have made the right decision for your circumstance.

[blackcat]

I understand that those ABS pumps on GS's,etc. can be repaired for substantially less money. Leafman had one go out on his GS, and the dealer? in Baton Rouge repaired it for something like $500 bucks, but that is from memory.

[Darren Williams]

I understand that those ABS pumps on GS's,etc. can be repaired for substantially less money. Leafman had one go out on his GS, and the dealer? in Baton Rouge repaired it for something like $500 bucks, but that is from memory.

I heard that too.