Service light on. Need advice

[Ridgerider]

I finally brought my '06 Breva 1100 out of its winter hibernation for my first ride of the season.  She started riight up, as usual, but the dreaded red triangle service light was on too.  Now, usually this doesn't concern me too much because I've had this issue for about a year now.  In the past I usually have to cycle through the start up process once or twice and it turns off.  Sometimes I have had to ride a few miles and it turns off.  This happened a number of times last summer when I took a 2500 mile ride through the Canadian Maritimes.  Even when the light is on, the bike runs perfectly.  Today, however, the light stayed on.  I cycled through the start up process a bunch of times.  I went for a 35 mile ride.  No change.  The damn light is still on.  The bike ran like a champ.  I just really don't like the red triangle glowing ominously every time I look down at the dash. I'll give my dealer, Jim Hamlin, a call to schedule for him to have a look, but I thought I'd  ask here if anyone has some suggestions or advice as to what I might want to look at.  I must admit, I possess some simple wrenching skills, but I find electronics confounding.  Still, any feedback would be much appreciated.

Peter

[beetle]

Without knowing error code, it's anyone's guess. I'm afraid you'll need either your dealer or GuzziDiag to find out.

[Lcarlson]

Hi Peter — I responded to your PM a couple of days ago. Can’t help you with the service light, though. Jim should be able to sort it out pretty quickly.

[Kev m]

I thought you could pull codes on the CARCs through the dash of you used the service code? Or has it just been too long since I owned one?!?

[yogidozer]

Electrical tape over the light.

[beetle]

I thought you could pull codes on the CARCs through the dash of you used the service code? Or has it just been too long since I owned one?!?

D'oh! Yes you can. I'm so used to GuzziDiag that I keep forgetting that Guzzi used to allow such things.

Peter, please check your error codes via the 'Diagnosis' menu in the dash. Service code for the Breva is 36421.

[Moto]

Yes, 36421. I just looked it up.

Peter, you'll find instructions interspersed through pp. 19-21 of your owner's manual. They seem confusing to me. Maybe I can help.

1) turn off the motor, and then turn the ignition switch back on without starting the motor.

2) flip the "trip 1/trip 2/mode" lever to the "mode" position.

3) give the "SET" push button (item 12 in the left illustration on page 14) two or three brief pushes until you see the  "DIAGNOSIS" option displayed.

4) give the same button a longer push until it challenges you for the code number. You enter this by using long pushes of the button to move from digit to digit, and short pushes to increment the digits. You need to enter 36421. (It's 12425 for your Griso colleagues.)

5) at that point you will see options for ECU and dashboard error displays (I'm forgetting the exact labels). Use the same short press/long press codes to navigate them. You will see both current and stored code values displayed on two separate screens. Write down the codes you see.

6) I recall there are one or more options for cancelling codes in the same part of the menu tree, but I forget the details.

7) though you can navigate back out of the menus at this point by selecting "EXIT" in two separate locations, it is simpler to just turn off the ignition.

Here are the codes you may encounter:

ECU ERROR CODES* displayed by the dashboard:

ECU 10 throttle valve C.C. Vcc
ECU 11 throttle valve C.C. Gnd
ECU 14 engine temperature C.C. Vcc
ECU 15 engine temperature C.C. Gnd
ECU 16 air temperature C.C. Vcc
ECU 17 air temperature C.C. Gnd
ECU 20 low battery
ECU 21 lambda sensor
ECU 22 ignition coil 1 C.C. Vcc
ECU 23 ignition coil 1 C.C. Gnd
ECU 24 ignition coil 2 C.C. Vcc
ECU 25 ignition coil 2 C.C. Gnd
ECU 26 injector 1 C.C. Vcc
ECU 27 injector 1 C.C. Gnd
ECU 30 injector 2 C.C. Vcc
ECU 36 pump relay
ECU 37 local loop-back
ECU 44 relay starter C.C. Vcc
ECU 45 relay starter C.C. Gnd
ECU 46 cannister C.C. Vcc
ECU 47 cannister C.C. Gnd
ECU 50 battery high
ECU 51 ECU general
ECU 54 instrument panel
ECU 55 autoadaptation Titi I
ECU 56 vehicle speed
ECU 60 stepper C.A.
ECU 61 stepper C.C. Vcc
ECU 62 stepper C.C. Gnd
ECU 00 error unknown

DASHBOARD ERROR CODES -- these are errors of the immobilizer and three sensors directly connected to the dashboard (codes DSB 07 and 08 both refer to the oil pressure sensor).

DSB 01 immobilizer fault: key code read but not recognized
DSB 02 immobilizer fault: key code not read (key not present or transponder broken)
DSB 03 immobilizer fault: antenna broken (open or short-circuited)
DSB 04 immobilizer fault: internal control fault
DSB 05 fuel sensor fault
DSB 06 air temperature sensor fault**
DSB 07 oil sensor fault
DSB 08 oil pressure fault

[My footnotes, not Guzzi's:]
* Vcc = voltage common collector -- the positive power supply to the component; Gnd = the ground connection for the component. I don't know what "C.C." and "C.A." mean, but the latter only appears once in the list, and I don't think knowing the meaning of "C.C." is important here.
** instrument panel air temperature sensor fault, not the engine intake air temperature sensor, which is covered by ECU codes 16 and 17.

SOURCE OF ERROR CODES: Breva 1100 Service Manual.pdf -- a powerpoint-like document, different from the Workshop Manual. I proofed my copying of the original, but the original has an unusual gap or two (e.g. an "injector 2 C.C. Gnd" error, probably code 31) that makes me doubt its complete trustworthiness.

Once you find the fault codes, post a message here. Probably someone can help.

By the way, codes DSB 07 and/or 08 are very commonly the result of a poor connection at the oil pressure sensor, and not an indication of insufficient oil pressure. Sometimes the oil pressure sensor itself is defective (but I think many good ones have been replaced when the problem was really the connection). Of course you should be very concerned about the possibility that there really is an oil pressure problem.

I think there is a posted list of these codes on some web site; maybe someone else remembers where. These codes also apply to the Griso, including the 1200 as I recall.

Hope this helps.

Moto

[Ridgerider]

Thanks for all the replies.  Although I like the electrical tape idea, I'll follow Moto's suggestions tomorrow when I have some time.  I'll also give Jim Hamlin a call.
Thanks again!

Peter

[Huzo]

Is the red triangle indicating a need for service or a fault ?
On my Norge the service icon is a spanner (wrench) and the dreaded triangle, although labelled “service” is indicative of trouble.

[Ridgerider]

Hi Huzo -

Unfortunately it's not the wrench icon. It reads "service" in red, right where the odometer read out usually is.

[Gliderjohn]

Unfortunately it's not the wrench icon. It reads "service" in red

Will the red service light eventually come on if one ignores resetting the wrench?
GliderJohn

[Kiwi Dave]

I'd almost guarantee it's a faulty oil pressure switch.  The problem is that the oil switch mechanism catches internally after the motor is switched off and remains in the open circuit position.

After observing the triangle of death when you switch the ignition back on, then start the motor, the renewed oil pressure moves the mechanism and frees it up.

If you now switch off, the mechanism is able to close the contact.  Then if you turn the key back on, the triangle of death is gone (until next time).

Sound familiar?

[Huzo]

I can tell you that you can check if it is the switch by the following.
Get up to 100 k or so and pull in the clutch.
Turn off the ignition and let the motor stop turning.
Turn the key on again and wait for the light show to stop.
Keep the throttle shut and pop the clutch out with a bit of mechanical sympathy.
If the light goes out...
It’s the switch.

[tris]

If you have an 07 dash error before you condemn the switch check the connection

Guzzi were cheap IMO and used a female spade connector instead of the correct type

If you tighten it up and the problem goes away you probably have your culprit.

I tracked down the correct connector and have not a 07 error since I fitted it in 2017

https://www.raffenday.com/terminal-56-series-female-straight.html?q=56+Series+Female+Tin+Plated+Terminal+Cable+Range+3.05mm-2.48mm

https://www.raffenday.com/56-series-female-tin-plated-terminal-cable-range-2-00-1-00mm-cable-insulation-range-3-05-2-48mm.html?q=56+Series+Female+Tin+Plated+Terminal+Cable+Range+3.05mm-2.48mm

I bought both as they were only a quid for 5 each, and I think I used the smaller of the 2 but I can't remember

https://www.raffenday.com/1-way-black-56-series-unsealed-female-connector.html?submit.x=0&submit.y=0&q=1+Way+Black+56+Series+Unsealed+Female+Connector

I made a little jump lead with a male spade terminal on the opposite end so that I could go back to standard if I ever needed too

[Ridgerider]

I took the Breva to my dealer, Jim Hamlin, to have a look and a diagnosis of the service light problem.  After looking, there were no ecu or dashboard faults.  The problem is the wire harness.  These, unfortunately, have to be ordered from Italy and won't arrive until June.  The cost to replace these is pretty damn high and beyond my wrenching skills.  Not sure what I'm going to do.  I'm tempted to just trade it in for a new V7.

[Tusayan]

Thanks for the report.  The typical way this kind of thing gets fixed is when somebody with the right skills and experience buys the bike, does the work, and resells it later to make money. Likely candidates are dealer mechanics working in their spare time.  Unfortunately that puts the market value of the bike at a low level, which then makes it less attractive as a project and so on.  The practical solution is sometimes to part out a 13 year old bike with a ‘minor’ issue - somebody wants an 1100 Guzzi engine.

[Huzo]

I haven’t read every word of this thread, but have you done the ride test on the oil switch ?
Just put a new one in, I’m very confident that’s what it’ll be.

[normzone]

I haven't read every word of this thread either, but I just figured out why some of my neighbors are so appalled when I put a battery charger on my bike.

It's because it's revolting.

[pete roper]

So have they done any sort of diagnostic work apart from checking the error codes with the OBD or maybe PADS? The likelihood af a loom having gone tits from sitting over winter is absurdly slim! Sounds to me like they just don't have anyone working there who is worth a pinch of shit.

Try swapping out the oil pressure switch first at least.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

I haven't read every word of this thread either, but I just figured out why some of my neighbors are so appalled when I put a battery charger on my bike.

It's because it's revolting.

<rimshot> Ooh, that was ugly, Norman.. 

[Moto]

I don't think it's an oil pressure sensor problem, even though that is the most common problem historically, from what I've seen.

Here's why. The oil pressure sensor is just a single wire that is either grounded or not. When it fails to show ground and the engine is not running, the dashboard is programmed to throw error code 07. When it continues to show ground while the engine is over 2000 rpm, that's code 08. In either case the dashboard is going to do two things: turn on a warning light and record the code. If it doesn't record the code, the dashboard itself has a partial failure. (These are both codes that persist in memory until cleared.) But if the dashboard has to have failed to show the warning light without recording code 07 or 08, there is no particular reason to think the dashboard is reacting to the oil pressure sensor in the first place. It could be anything, or nothing, that caused the light to come on, aside from the dashboard's own failure.

In summary, in order for this to be a failed oil pressure sensor, there would have to be a failure of the dash too, given the stated symptoms, and it is hard to believe there would be such a coincidence.

I would be suspicious of the diagnosis from the shop. Was there no code at all, or was it maybe ECU code "00" (above), "error unknown"? If it were my bike I would look at the codes myself while the warning light was illuminated. (Instructions are in my earlier message.)

If there is really no code recorded, maybe the shop's diagnosis went like this: Since none of the sensor errors and so on in the previous list of codes is showing, it is reasonable to assume none of them is to blame. Therefore, it must be something else. What else is there? Ah, the wiring harness!

Could be true. It could also be the dash itself, but I don't remember this having been a symptom of a failed dash before. (I recall Breva dashes usually first have problems with their turn signals when moisture damages the PCB.)

Moto

[Rich A]

Re the harness--any evidence of mice? I've had problems with them in several vehicles, one this past winter and one last winter. I'm now trapping the lil bastards relentlessly.

Rich

[Huzo]

It’s taken longer to discuss this than to do the swap.
My Norge did the identical thing @ 50,000 k and again @ about 120,000 k.
Each time the test procedure I described exposed the issue. Put the switch in and if it doesn’t solve the problem with a new spade connector, I’ll donate the cost of the switch to WG.
That’s what the problem is..

[Moto]

It’s taken longer to discuss this than to do the swap.
My Norge did the identical thing @ 50,000 k and again @ about 120,000 k.
Each time the test procedure I described exposed the issue. Put the switch in and if it doesn’t solve the problem with a new spade connector, I’ll donate the cost of the switch to WG.
That’s what the problem is..

Oh. That's a surprise, then. No error codes in the memory?

I wonder how that would happen.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I imagine it's not possible to get the service light on without some sort of an error

Moto listed all the error codes for you
You owe it to yourself to check out the error codes
It may be possible to throw money at the situation but suppose a new loom makes no difference what then?

If you turn the bike on and there are no codes trigger one by pulling a wire off or something, this will teach you how they work.

I have to agree with Huzo, we know for a fact the pressure switches are very unreliable, they are a bad design, I have had 6 different Guzzis and only have 1 with a working switch.

[randy yocum]

I'm glad I read this thread ,and want to thank everyone for these clever solutions to Ridgerider's  problem.My 2007 Norge has given me fits for years intermittently throwing that red triangle .I Just got to the point of ignoring it when it came on, in my mind there wasn't a problem . The bike runs flawlessly.I'm hoping that fixing the spade connector will cure this forever.  Thanks again.

here are the error codes that appeared  the last time I check  05x   06x    07xx   

[Huzo]

Might be just as well the dodgy switch stays in..
If he replaces it, we’ll have nothing to argue about..!

[Murray]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bumx4AerJUQ

[Moto]

Regarding Ridgerider's problem, my points are:

1) if there are really no error codes, it's probably not the switch. (Huzo didn't say whether he had seen error codes after I raised the question, so now I'm thinking he did see them.)

2) Ridgerider should check for error codes himself instead of relying on the shop's report of no error codes.

3) if he sees code 07 and/or 08, the first thing to suspect is a loose connector on the switch, not the switch itself.

To which I would add:

4) it's not that easy to swap in a new switch, especially if Ridgerider doesn't have one on hand. Because: a) the OEM switch is no longer offered; b) there is bad advice out there about which switches to substitute for it; c) putting in a new switch will also require obtaining and wiring in a new (and better) connector; d) the location is a bit hard to access.

I agree with Kiwi_Roy that every fault detected by the dash should produce an error code. So I'm most suspicious of the dealer's report of no code. But if that report was correct, the dash itself would have to be at fault, not the oil pressure switch or its connector. Any flaw in the wiring harness that the dash could detect in order to throw a warning light should also have resulted in a code.

Regarding Randy's problem, if you see these codes:

DSB 05 fuel sensor fault
DSB 06 air temperature sensor fault**
DSB 07 oil sensor fault

but not this one:

DSB 08 oil pressure fault

then it looks like you have dodgy connections to three dashboard sensors (rather than an oil pressure sensor fault in particular). I haven't seen an ounce of evidence of bad connections on my own bike, but I suppose you could look at connectors.

A bit of black electrical tape over the warning light can lead to peace of mind in situations like this. (EDIT: that's a joke, actually. Code 07 could be an actual oil pressure sensor failure and so shouldn't be ignored. The other two (05, 06) don't matter much and would produce their own obvious symptoms in the fuel warning light and external air temperature readings on the dash if they were real.)

Moto

[kingoffleece]

Check the harness into the rear of the gauge cluster.