Quick shifter on a Guzzi

[fossil]

Quickshifters rule, Items that are a must on any new bike..heated grips, cruise control and after riding a new GS BMW and Aprilia Tuono a quickshifter.

Just do it man..

What about a heated seat, an automatic gearbox, radio and a coffemaker? And a must for a GS (at least obviously here in Germany) is a yellow vest.

[lucian]

I wouldn't even consider a QS on any bike as heavy and with as much engine and drive line mass as a 1400. I also wouldn't have one on any bike that didn't have a cassette gearbox. Splitting cases to replace gears with rounded off engagement dogs is no fun and can get quite expensive. I have zero experience with PC's and such but I can vouch first hand for the fantastic improvements you will achieve with one of Beetle's creations. After all ,the beauty of programmable FI is the ability to customize the fueling to your specific set up and be done with it. No extra widget to think about. I would also be afraid of the PC causing  voltage anomalies in the RBW demand sensor circuits. You could be left crawling home in limp mode with the red triangle on the dash,, or worse.   I wish you luck however with your endeavor, please keep us posted on your outcomes. 

[Bulldog9]

Exactly.

Guzzi Diag cables and a proper map is what $125 out of pocket?  With a proper map, and a full diagnosis suite and cables you can use on ANY bike, and with tuner pro the brave can make their own additions. A PC is sometimes the only and common option (my FJR), so it is the best option for performance improvements, but thanks to the hard work of Mark and this community, a PC is a waste of $$ and rife with potential problems. Plus the single bike tool from GT is disgustingly overpriced and far less useful.

I wouldn't even consider a QS on any bike as heavy and with as much engine and drive line mass as a 1400. I also wouldn't have one on any bike that didn't have a cassette gearbox. Splitting cases to replace gears with rounded off engagement dogs is no fun and can get quite expensive. I have zero experience with PC's and such but I can vouch first hand for the fantastic improvements you will achieve with one of Beetle's creations. After all ,the beauty of programmable FI is the ability to customize the fueling to your specific set up and be done with it. No extra widget to think about. I would also be afraid of the PC causing  voltage anomalies in the RBW demand sensor circuits. You could be left crawling home in limp mode with the red triangle on the dash,, or worse.   I wish you luck however with your endeavor, please keep us posted on your outcomes. 

[wirespokes]

Both the Guzzis and BMW twins benefit from loading the shifter. It doesn't require any force, just removing the play from the system while the revs are dropping and then the clutch pulled in. Smooth is the watchword here, not speed. Been riding airhead beemers since the 90s and guzzis several years now with no transmission issues.

If you've got money to throw at the bike, why not? But you know, these bikes are more like endurance racers than drag racers or sprinters. If a fraction of a second makes that much of a difference, you're riding the wrong bike. The kind of race these bikes are good for is to the next state or half way across the country. Get it going and just go!

I'm not into computers on vehicles, but I will say this - rather than adding a second computer to correct the first only makes sense to me if there's no way to correct the first one.

Finally, before making a lot of changes to a 'new' bike you're unfamiliar with, it only seems logical to me to become well acquainted first. I've seen this a lot with guys wanting to modify the old beemers and it's the same thing. We'd tell them to get to know the bike and give it time to 'talk' to you. Those that did went a different direction with much less radical changes.

Maybe it's that we're mostly old farts here who've gotten racing out of our systems (though we still like going fast) and the bikes accelerate plenty fast as they are - definitely faster than when we were in race mode many years back. I know I don't push my bikes anywhere near as hard as they could be most of the time, so I see no reason for faster shifts. Perhaps save the guzzi for relaxed rides and use the Duck for that acceleration fix? But it sounds like you've already made up your mind and are looking for positive reinforcement. Good luck!

[Bulldog9]

I've not tried pre-loading the shifter on my Norge or Griso. When I first got them I tried to do some clutchless shifting (as on other bikes)  but it didn't feel right and it was a bit too lurchy for my taste, at least based on how I normally ride. I'm perfectly content using the clutch, but will try this technique the next time I ride hopefully tomorrow morning :-)

[kingoffleece]

Pre-loading works a treat.  You'll be pleased I'd wager.

[jacksonracingcomau]

For upshifting there is absolutely no need for a quick shifter. Once you are out of first simply preload the lever and twitch the throttle. Going down there is simply too much mass in the driveline to safely and reliably be able to crash it through.
Pete

+ 
Clutchess up we learnt as kids, but down I can do too, just not when pulling the anchors ! my brain is  not fast enough.
Just maybe the pc doodad is cleverer,kills till engaged, to the millisecond, only needs speed and rpm to calculate
And now you don't have to learn how to twitch a throttle, maybe most here won't
Could be seen as progress even ?

[wirespokes]

Someone joked recently the best anti-theft device is a shift lever. Maybe not on bikes...

I've never shifted up clutchless - are you saying all bikes can be shifted up safely without pulling the lever?

[Luap McKeever]

Guess I need to get out of the woods more often. This post has me confused and proves I am out of touch when it comes to shifting. Maybe I've been doing it wrong with Guzzi for 200,000+ miles.  Silly me, I've always just throttled up to the right RPM, rolled off the throttle at the same time pulling in the clutch, then shifted the gear, let out the clutch at the same time as rolling back on the throttle. All of this takes about .25 seconds, which I thought was pretty quick. I've never given it a moments thought. Shows you want I know 

What's all this pre-load nonsense anyways? Just ride your motorcycle.

[Huzo]

so are you saying that because of the centrifugal force of the spinning clutch

”centrifugal force” of itself is a misnomer, but we all know what we mean..(well, most of us)
The term you are searching for is “angular momentum”, or in everyday terms..
“The tendency for the flywheel to want to keep spinning after you’ve buttoned off”...Issac Newton didn’t coin that one.
And..
If ANYONE says that clutchless shifts are completely harmless, it’s all going to start again.
By doing so, you are NOT allowing ANY time for the massive flywheel and crankshaft to adopt the new RPM required for the gear you have selected..
With a clutchless shift, how long is it between the disengagement of one gear and the engagement of the next ?
0.1 seconds, 0.2 seconds ?
That’s how long you are allowing for the combined mass of the rotating engine internals to drop 500 or so rpm with no cushioning of the mechanicals.
It’s not hard to calculate the force required to accellerate (or decellerate) the combined mass of the clutch, crankshaft and sundry rotating internals from one steady state to one 500 rpm different.
Would you put your bike in gear, attach a socket and breaker bar to the nut in the front of the timing chest, then flog it with a 9 lb sledge hammer ?
Surely you’d say..” No way, it’ll root up the drive train”....Touche’

Go and buy an R1 and destroy that..

[Huzo]

Guess I need to get out of the woods more often. This post has me confused and proves I am out of touch when it comes to shifting. Maybe I've been doing it wrong with Guzzi for 200,000+ miles.  Silly me, I've always just throttled up to the right RPM, rolled off the throttle at the same time pulling in the clutch, then shifted the gear, let out the clutch at the same time as rolling back on the throttle. All of this takes about .25 seconds, which I thought was pretty quick. I've never given it a moments thought. Shows you want I know 

What's all this pre-load nonsense anyways? Just ride your motorcycle.

Luap.
What you’re doing is riding your bike expertly and smoothly and I’ll wager that I could sit on the back of your bike with ear plugs and not know you’d shifted gear, if you really put your mind to it.
That does not mean that you are not performing a myriad of well timed mechanical functions in unison to achieve a smooth shift.
I have had occasion to see my right and left hands on video while shifting on my Norge and was a little surprised at the subtlety of movements that I was unaware that I did.
Point is, some of us say “I don’t bother with all that (    )”, but we are doing it as an acquired skill.

[Frenchfrog]

  Nail on the head about shiftless Huzo... Harry came down from the UK on his new to him BMW .We have know each other since school. Harry allways,has allways and will probebly allways do clutchless gear shifts on all his bikes and cars.When he got down here he was complaining that one of the gears was slipping out of gear.....same thing happened to his MT03 and lord knows how many other vehicles he has owned...He balked when I suggested that there could well be some correlation to be done there !! I never let Harry ride any of my bikes BTW 

[Huzo]

Nail on the head about shiftless Huzo... Harry came down from the UK on his new to him BMW .We have know each other since school. Harry allways,has allways and will probebly allways do clutchless gear shifts on all his bikes and cars.When he got down here he was complaining that one of the gears was slipping out of gear.....same thing happened to his MT03 and lord knows how many other vehicles he has owned...He balked when I suggested that there could well be some correlation to be done there !! I never let Harry ride any of my bikes BTW 

I’ve been through this a dozen times here FF and never I cease to be amazed at some of the responses I get from the enlightened ones, not to mention the muppets.
“My mate does it on his Norton”
Or
“It doesn’t hurt anything ‘cos.. ‘cos..’cos.. it’s got a constant mesh ‘box” ????!!
Or
“The gears are already spinning at the correct speed to mesh....!!!?”
For me it has always been about the fact that the rotating internals of the engine have to assume a new RPM figure INSTANTLY at the insistence of the approaching gear dogs that are being forced to engage, with no disconnection from the drivetrain downstream.
I’m bound to admit that a perfectly timed snap shut of the throttle will produce a minutely small unloading of the drive through the ‘box and if you can crash the next gear through at that instant you will achieve some measure of success, but it does NOT get you away from the fact that you’re subjecting your engine to utterly needless butchery.

[Two Checks]

If a Guzzi flywheel is to heavy to be shifting sans clutch, I guess truckers best stop doing it.

[Huzo]

If a Guzzi flywheel is to heavy to be shifting sans clutch, I guess truckers best stop doing it.

Wrong.
In a road ranger I routinely shift without the clutch..
Like the one in here.


The current gear is disengaged and the RPM is raised or lowered 400 revs to match the engine output shaft with the gearbox output shaft.
If you’re joking then I get it, but if not best you stop now or go for a drive in a 15 litre diesel with an 18 speed ‘box and tell me how many teeth (in the gearbox) that you lose.
And by the way..
It’s “too heavy...”
not “to heavy...”

[Roebling3]

What ever happened to the 'beating a dead horse' emo? Rather than the hammer fight scene?
Many 'shifting problems' can be blamed on the manufacturer and sometimes abuse and/or lack of proper maintenance. Certainly MG's gear boxes, in my experience, always feel like pre-1940's design & manufacture. Certainly proper assy. could go a long way toward better shifting transmissions. Modern design &  materials and less drive line weight will make a difference too.
IOW: that howling crap box hung on my V7 III should be embarrassing every Guzzi engineer from day 1! I know; They're all like that. I've tried a bunch.
     But what does that tell you?     R3~ 

[Two Checks]

Quote from: Huzo on November 10, 2019, 03:28:03 PM

Wrong.
In a road ranger I routinely shift without the clutch..
Like the one in here.
>

The current gear is disengaged and the RPM is raised or lowered 400 revs to match the engine output shaft with the gearbox output shaft.
If you’re joking then I get it, but if not best you stop now or go for a drive in a 15 litre diesel with an 18 speed ‘box and tell me how many teeth (in the gearbox) that you lose.
And by the way..
It’s “too heavy...”
not “to heavy...”

You can thank spel chek for the incorrect spelling.

And since you do it in the truck, it has to be okay on a Guzzi.

I think ya got it.

[Huzo]

Quote from: Huzo on November 10, 2019, 03:28:03 PM

Wrong.
In a road ranger I routinely shift without the clutch..
Like the one in here.
>

The current gear is disengaged and the RPM is raised or lowered 400 revs to match the engine output shaft with the gearbox output shaft.
If you’re joking then I get it, but if not best you stop now or go for a drive in a 15 litre diesel with an 18 speed ‘box and tell me how many teeth (in the gearbox) that you lose.
And by the way..
It’s “too heavy...”
not “to heavy...”

You can thank spel chek for the incorrect spelling.

And since you do it in the truck, it has to be okay on a Guzzi.

I think ya got it.

I know I have..
You see, here’s the thing. In the truck you can flip the ‘box into neutral between gears while the rpm drops, or is raised to the requisite setting.
Keep going the way you are and you will end up with a ‘box full of neutrals in your Guzzi, or palm it off onto some poor bastard when it starts jumping out of gear.
But while we’re on the subject, do you stop at neutral on the way through the gearbox in your Eaton Fuller Roadranger equipped Kenworth/Iveco/Mack....etc ?
Really, I’m very keen to learn.

[JeffOlson]

I had a quick shifter on my 2018 BMW R1200RT. I used it only for downshifts. I did not like it for upshifts; they were a bit jerky. For downshifts, though, it was amazing exiting off the freeway or coming into a slower-speed corner.

However, I can downshift almost as smoothly the old way on my 2016 Norge, and I can upshift more smoothly than the BMW quick shifter did.

(Another feature I never used on the RT: hill-hold; I always just used the rear brake pedal because starting from a stop with hill-hold engaged required much more throttle than normal, sometimes resulting in a stall when the light turned green.)

[Huzo]

I had a quick shifter on my 2018 BMW R1200RT. I used it only for downshifts. I did not like it for upshifts; they were a bit jerky. For downshifts, though, it was amazing exiting off the freeway or coming into a slower-speed corner.

However, I can downshift almost as smoothly the old way on my 2016 Norge, and I can upshift more smoothly than the BMW quick shifter did.

(Another feature I never used on the RT: hill-hold; I always just used the rear brake pedal because starting from a stop with hill-hold engaged required much more throttle than normal, sometimes resulting in a stall when the light turned green.)

So does the quick shifter crack the clutch during shifts ?

[Roebling3]

My experience with Road Rangers ended in the late 60's. I only used the clutch going through the 'gate'. Did Eaton acquire Fuller? Can you still buy a Mack with a drop stick, triplex or Q box? Been out of the business since '85. My apologies for the interruption.  R3~

[rocker59]

Did Eaton acquire Fuller? 

Seriously?  My dad was in high school when that happened...

"In 1958 Eaton Corporation acquired Fuller Manufacturing"

[pressureangle]

Nobody 'needs' a quick shifter outside of competition.

That said, since when is need the standard?

The question of effect has been answered. The flywheel effect is high, and shift speed won't improve meaningfully.

But will it feel better? Will it be more fun? Will I be able to spill beer on my buddies because they don't have it?

If you have the resources and will to have the PC tuned on a gas-analyzer dynomometer, you probably won't kill the motor by overfueling.
You can achieve equal or better results without the PC, apparently. So why add something that adds a layer to what's already available?

I'm as guilty as anyone in here of spending money on upgrades I didn't 'need'.

[Bulldog9]

What ever happened to the 'beating a dead horse' emo? Rather than the hammer fight scene?
Many 'shifting problems' can be blamed on the manufacturer and sometimes abuse and/or lack of proper maintenance. Certainly MG's gear boxes, in my experience, always feel like pre-1940's design & manufacture. Certainly proper assy. could go a long way toward better shifting transmissions. Modern design &  materials and less drive line weight will make a difference too.
IOW: that howling crap box hung on my V7 III should be embarrassing every Guzzi engineer from day 1! I know; They're all like that. I've tried a bunch.
     But what does that tell you?     R3~

Funny, I've never found the boxes on my Guzzi's (4V GRiSO, 8V Norge, V7ii Stornello, MGX-21) to be anything other than smooth and solid. Certainly not snickety quick and light, but not bad. Granted I came from an FJR to the Griso, and before the FJR a series of bikes (FZ1, C10 Concours, RT 12) and rode Yama XS series bikes for the 30 years prior. You want to talk about a bad transmission....... .. Meet the Yamaha XS11 where 2nd gear is always an adventure....   I'm obviously not picky.  The V7 and MGX have noticeably better boxes than the CARC bikes, enabling clutchless up and down shifting, though I rarely do it.... At least on purpose 

As others have noted, a quick shift for the street is superfluous, but hey, it's your (that persons) ride.....

[Huzo]

I think I must be missing something here..
I didn’t think the main reason to not do it was due to how superfluous it was, more a matter of clutchless shift cumulative damage.
Also whether or not it “can” be done is a moot point..
It’s whether or not it “should” be done.
Am I the only one to think that making your rotating engine, flywheel and clutch mechanisms, alter their rotation rate by 500 rpm in 0.2 seconds by the forced crashing together of uncushioned mechanical parts, is a weeny bit unseemly ?
Of course I could be showing my lack of knowlege here.
Does a quick shifter feather the clutch at the moment of gear selection ?

[Murray]

Quickshifters rule, Items that are a must on any new bike..heated grips, cruise control and after riding a new GS BMW and Aprilia Tuono a quickshifter.

Just do it man..

Snowing there already eh? Lake hasn't frozen up enough to go fishing yet?

[Huzo]

I will soon be getting a PCV & autotuner for my Mgx-21 after my Agostini exhaust & high flow filter with open air box lid install.
The PCV has an option for a quick shifter (installed on linkage) like I had on my Ducati, & I really enjoyed it. The question is has anyone here installed one on a Mgx-21 or the California 1400? If so, how did you like it? Thanks Alex

You know..
I should keep my unsolicited opinions to myself. Just thinking about it in a sober fashion...
I reckon you deserve one..