2013 V7 Stone Fuel Pump Behavior ?

[SmithSwede]

I’ve got a no-start condition on a 2013 V7 Stone that I’m just beginning to diagnose.  Quick question about fuel pump behavior.   

When I turn the ignition key to ON with the gas cap off, I hear the fuel pump whir, and see fuel circulating in the tank.  After 2 to 3 seconds, the pump and swirling stops.   

I could swear this is normal.   So I’m leaning towards an electrical issue.   Fuses are good, but I wonder about the injector relay under the tank. 

Dusty suspects the swirling is indicative of a blown or split hose relating to the fuel pump in the tank. 

Can somebody confirm either way?

No check engine lights. Plugs on both sides are bone dry.   Full tank of fresh gas.  I replaced the stock metal/rubber fuel filter about 50,000 miles ago with the all metal one Pete recommended, and used the correct sized Oetiker clamps.   

[Cam3512]

Something's come apart.  Don't want swirling fuel.

This might be the rare occasion Dusty's right.

[oldbike54]

Something's come apart.  Don't want swirling fuel.

This might be the rare occasion Dusty's right.

 

 Dusty

[davedel44]

Just went out to the carport in my drawers to check!

Whirring but no swirling!

Same happened on my big Stone after I replaced the fuel filter.  Slipped a clamp.

Good luck Prescott

Dave
Galveston

[Chuck in Indiana]

Even a blind hawg finds an acorn now and then.. 

This might be the rare occasion Dusty's right.

[oldbike54]

Even a blind hawg finds an acorn now and then.. 

 When Luap's MGX started acting up he called and described the symptoms . Told him he had pulled a plug cap loose when changing the spark plugs. He asked how I knew that , "from reading the forum" was the response 

 Amazing what a person can learn from actually reading the troubleshooting threads here 

 OK , a lot of it I already knew , but who knew there was a fuel pump inside of modern MG fuel tanks 

 Dusty

[malik]

The sound of the pump priming is normal. I've never seen the fuel swirl, but then I can't r ember looking for it when the tank is full. If one of the pump's hoses has come off, it's possible it would still swirl. Are you getting fuel through? Test either at the red elbow or at the injectors, I suppose.

I had the same symptom once on the V7, but there was a mate standing by who knew his way around a multimeter & tracked the problem to the clutch switch - the switch block had moved around the handlebar a tad, and was stopping the clutch switch engaging. You don't have to pull the clutch to start your V7, but you get the idea - some problems can be tracked down without getting your hands too dirty. (If you can figure out how). Check your battery's charge. Double check your battery terminals, check your grounds, check your connectors, especially the ones coming up from the alternator & the reg/rec, check the HT leads are connected at either end. That sort of stuff, before starting to take the bike apart to find the culprit. Report back.

That being said, I've also had a hose on the fuel pump slip off, but that was immediately after I replaced the V7's fuel tank with the 21L metal tank, with a new (to me) fuel pump. It started and ran for a while, then stopped. The starter would work, but wouldn't fire up. Tank off, fuel pump out, reconnect the hose & clamp it tightly. No problems since.

[fossil]

I would start with the simple things: 1) side stand switch? Should be electrically closed in one of the two positions of the side stand. 2) Does the green "neutral" lamp work?

[Howard R]

There have been several threads on in-tank fuel lines, it's pretty certain that something has come off of yours: the swirl tells the tale.  All of the other trouble shooting hints are good, but not really necessary after you saw the fuel swirl.  I don't know how your neutral, kill switch, or side stand systems are wired but on my '96 Sport the only thing interlocked to the starter is the kill switch.  Switch set to "engine off," the starter will not spin.  It's easy enough to try setting you kill switch to "off" and then turn on the key.  If you don't hear the pump run for a few seconds but the pump does come on when you set the kill switch to "run" that will tell you that the interlocks are working properly and your problem is elsewhere. 

Howard

[Cam3512]

The "swirling gas" test doesn't work when the tank is low on fuel.  Ask me how I know.  My 2009 Calvin died while in the left lane of Rt. 95 outside Baltimore on the way to the MD Rally.  After some trouble shooting on the side of the highway, we pulled the tank.  Sure enough, a fuel line had basically tuned to mush and popped off.  Reattached it and clamped it down good.  It held for the rally and the entire trip home.  These were the same hoses that Speaker's "replaced" while prepping the new bike a few years earlier.   Did it right when I got home.

[Wayne Orwig]

When I turn the ignition key to ON with the gas cap off, I hear the fuel pump whir, and see fuel circulating in the tank.  After 2 to 3 seconds, the pump and swirling stops.   

With the regulator in the tank, it is normal for fuel to recirculate in the tank. So you may normally see SOME fuel moving around.

But, it normally is a pretty small amount. If it is a lot, I would put odds on it being a line off inside.

Pull the outside line off. If fuel runs out, you have a line off inside. If you power up the pump and fuel does not squirt across the garage and burn down the house (oops), you have a line off inside.

[Kev m]

With the regulator in the tank, it is normal for fuel to recirculate in the tank. So you may normally see SOME fuel moving around.

But, it normally is a pretty small amount. If it is a lot, I would put odds on it being a line off inside.

Pull the outside line off. If fuel runs out, you have a line off inside. If you power up the pump and fuel does not squirt across the garage and burn down the house (oops), you have a line off inside.

All good advice, though I probably would have started the other way - I would have pulled a spark plug lead, placed in a known good plug, and cranked to see if there WAS spark. If there is spark, then I'd KNOW it's pretty much a fuel problem and I'd disconnect a fuel line at that point....

Two ways around a square a guess.

[oldbike54]

All good advice, though I probably would have started the other way - I would have pulled a spark plug lead, placed in a known good plug, and cranked to see if there WAS spark. If there is spark, then I'd KNOW it's pretty much a fuel problem and I'd disconnect a fuel line at that point....

Two ways around a square a guess.

 The bike has spark , already tested . The tank is almost full , everything else seems normal . The filter has been replaced with an all metal version , Swede used the recommended line and fittings . The fix was done about 70,000 miles back , anyone want to bet a dollar that a line has split ?

 Dusty

[Kev m]

The bike has spark , already tested . The tank is almost full , everything else seems normal . The filter has been replaced with an all metal version , Swede used the recommended line and fittings . The fix was done about 70,000 miles back , anyone want to bet a dollar that a line has split ?

 Dusty

Really, I re-read the thread and the OP - I don't get that from this post:

I’ve got a no-start condition on a 2013 V7 Stone that I’m just beginning to diagnose.  Quick question about fuel pump behavior.   

When I turn the ignition key to ON with the gas cap off, I hear the fuel pump whir, and see fuel circulating in the tank.  After 2 to 3 seconds, the pump and swirling stops.   

I could swear this is normal.   So I’m leaning towards an electrical issue.   Fuses are good, but I wonder about the injector relay under the tank. 

Dusty suspects the swirling is indicative of a blown or split hose relating to the fuel pump in the tank. 

Can somebody confirm either way?

No check engine lights. Plugs on both sides are bone dry.   Full tank of fresh gas.  I replaced the stock metal/rubber fuel filter about 50,000 miles ago with the all metal one Pete recommended, and used the correct sized Oetiker clamps.

Are you making an assumption based on the fact that the plugs are dry?

Or am I missing another post on this?

The one MOST important thing I've learned about troubleshooting is to NEVER, EVER make assumptions. Check most simple or most likely first and move methodically from there.

EDIT - oh, looks like there's some pre-communication going on here between him and you maybe?

Sure, if spark has already been eliminated and we KNOW it's fuel, and there's visible swirling in the tank I'd be dollars to donuts it's a fuel line/connection in the tank.

If I wanted to eliminate the injector, I'd simply crank the motor and feel for a ticking/pulsing on the injector. You should be able to feel it. If the plugs are dry and the injector is clicking, you KNOW it's in the tank.

[oldbike54]

 The fuel swirling is the dead give away .

 Dusty

[antmanbee]

I would check the phase sensor on the front left of the engine. It may have gone bad. the sensor should Ohm out at approx. 680 Ohms.
You will get no fuel or spark if it is bad but the pump runs normally.

[oldbike54]

I would check the phase sensor on the front left of the engine. It may have gone bad. the sensor should Ohm out at approx. 680 Ohms.
You will get no fuel or spark if it is bad but the pump runs normally.

 The bike has spark .

 You guys are making this more complicated than the symptoms indicate 

 Dusty

[antmanbee]

Sorry, I don't see where the OP said there was a spark. Phase sensor is fine if he has spark.
Split hose in the tank is most likely then.

[Kev m]

The fuel swirling is the dead give away .

 Dusty

I tend to agree, but since the regulator is in there it's not 100%. But I do think you generally don't see the swirling if it's jus the normal bleed off from the regulator. Still I don't run the pump with the cap off enough to know for sure.

[oldbike54]

Sorry, I don't see where the OP said there was a spark. Phase sensor is fine if he has spark.
Split hose in the tank is most likely then.

 Wasn't trying to sound snarky 

 

I tend to agree, but since the regulator is in there it's not 100%. But I do think you generally don't see the swirling if it's jus the normal bleed off from the regulator. Still I don't run the pump with the cap off enough to know for sure.

 I do have a bit more of the data points from discussion with Swede than were in the OP  . Davedel44 filled up his tank and did the test , no swirling, 
 
 Dusty

[Kev m]

Wasn't trying to sound snarky 

 
 I do have a bit more of the data points from discussion with Swede than were in the OP  . Davedel44 filled up his tank and did the test , no swirling, 
 
 Dusty

Yeah, it seems you know how much fuel is in his tank too... another data point the rest of us didn't have. 

[rocker59]

70.000 miles?  My vote is the internal fuel line between pump and filter has failed.

[Wayne Orwig]

Yeah, it seems you know how much fuel is in his tank too... another data point the rest of us didn't have. 

We don't know the double secret handshake I guess. 


 

[PJPR01]

Is it swirling clockwise or counter clockwise?  Do you know the position of the fuel pump in the tank...that would give you a clue...

:)

[oldbike54]

We don't know the double secret handshake I guess. 


 

 Apparently I don't know it either , yesterday Swede indicated he was getting spark , now he isn't so sure .

 Although...

 


 Dusty

[PJPR01]

Apparently I don't know it either , yesterday Swede indicated he was getting spark , now he isn't so sure .

 Although...
 Dusty

Well why didn't you say that before...give me 1/2 hour, I'll just run up to Bartlesville and come back with some more spare plugs again for that vapor locked V7!!

Prescott...don't forget to turn it downhill this time again...remember that was the trick to getting it started last time at Woolaroc!!

Good luck buddy!

[oldbike54]

 One more data point for you guys to chew on , Swede sprayed carb cleaner into the throttle body and got nothing . My question is , with high pressure EFI will that old dodge even work ?

 Dusty

[Kiwi_Roy]

This is another instance where it would be nice to know the status of the Injection Load Relay.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Look what relay 28 powers up on this bike.
As I found mine up under the tank I will be adding LEDs to the relay outputs asap.

[Wayne Orwig]

One more data point for you guys to chew on , Swede sprayed carb cleaner into the throttle body and got nothing . My question is , with high pressure EFI will that old dodge even work ?

If it is a combustible spray.

[Kiwi_Roy]

How easy is it to pull the plugs and check spark on a V7?
I read here about how easy it is to damage the plug caps, does that make them short out?
We need to see if it's sparking to confirm the rotation sensor is working, that tells the ECU to power the relay that provides power to the coils.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
I know you are all sick of me rabbiting on about a "Go Winkie" light on the relay (the red wire powering up the coils and injectors) but if you had that it would resolve the rotation sensor question. My new V7 will have a permanent 12V LED under the seat before it's much older.