2009 Griso Red-Glowing Silencer

[doctoriz]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post and a critical one, I think!

Here's a quick backstory seeing how this is my first post.
I have a 2009 Moto Guzzi Griso (8V, 1200cc) which I bought in 2013, which was "like showroom new!" I absolutely love this bikes looks, sound, and handling. I previously owned a 2002 BMW R1150R, which was a great bike, but just missed the lean angle for twisty-turns that I used to do on my cafe style bikes. My buddy had just bought a 2009 Griso and I feel in love with it; two weeks later, I owned one!

The Griso has been a phenomenal bike. I have kept it stock because, why change perfection...lol

In the summer of 2017, my buddy advised me of the tappet issue, so I took my bike to Cleveland Moto and had them check it out. The head guy advised that I should have the bike assessed, as he told me there was no way to know if it needed the rollerized until they took it down. He said if it didn't I would have the cost of the labor. I didn't have the funds to do it at the time, so I never go to it.

I was having some bogging with throttling and the horsepower seemed down to me. He agreed. He did a oil change and uploaded a new map; and WOW, what a difference. He also mentioned not to run premium gas and to use 87 octane, which I did not know. I had run premium in her since I owned her.

Ayway, I had planned to do the rollerization eval the following season, but didn't get around it. In fact, that following summer, I herniated one of my lumbar discs and didn't ride that season, so the bike sat, though I fired it up regularly.

I always added fuel stabilizer to it each winter and also ran a capful of injector cleaner

So, to fast forward, I got her ready last week. My youngest daughter wanted to go for her first ride. She was thrilled! The bike was hard to start and yes, I always have it on a battery tender when not in use. Once I got it started, it would quickly stall out. I would restart several times and finally it would stay running, but seemed to idle rough to me. If I tried to crack the throttle, it would cut out and then stall again. So, I would just leave it running longer and it seemed to be better.

Once I got it on the road, it seemed boggy under accelerating, almost cutting out and then it would kick in like a "power band" and take off like a bat out of hell. When I would come to stop, the idle seemed to low and it would stall. It would restart and the patterned continued. I road it for a mile or two at most and then returned to the garage. There was a tiny flaming coming out of the side vent of the silencer. The red metal mesh at the rear of the silencer had turned white and the internal pipes within the silencer were glowing orange!

I recall having an issue with BMW R1150R where the pipes would turn glowing orange the first time I fired it up after winter, but it self corrected. The odd thing is with the Griso is, the main pipes to the silencer looked fine, where not glowing, nor hot like the silencer.

I have not fired up the bike since and talk to my buddy, who suggested that I join this forum, which he has told me about from the beginning. I am glad to be here. I hope someone has some ideas that I can look into before having to take the bike back to the dealer a hundred miles from here.

On a lesser note, my Griso tank logo and stripped sticker, the former worse than the latter are looking bad. The Griso logo is half off at this point. Does anyone know where replacement logos can be purchased and also could recommend a site for purchasing OEM parts?

I want to say thank you in advance,
Jon

P.S. My apologies if this was posted somewhere else, as I am learning how to navigate the forum.

Here's a picture that snapped when it happened!





roll 1d100

[Turin]

Something is definitely wrong there.  When I see flames coming out of a pipe, my first thought is exhaust leak. Check the exhaust collars.
I don't know if tappet issues could cause your bike to go that lean to make your muffler look like the back end of the space shuttle.

Someone smarter will be along shortly.

[Sheepdog]

Check the exhaust clamps for tightness. Also consider getting a remap on your bikes fuel injection CPU; it sounds as though your bike is running lean.

[lucian]

I suspect your catalytic converter in the exhaust is overheating due to un burnt  fuel. My first guess is a bad spark plug cap { known issue as they crack when not removed properly]  If you take the little covers with the moto guzzi badges off and watch in the dark you'll see a cracked one arcing to ground.  The resulting miss fire will send un burned gas into the exhaust overheating the catalytic converter.  Get some new NGK plug caps, # SB05E and carry on.

[beetle]

What lucian said. Cat.

  What Perazzimx14 said. Get it rollerised immediately.

[pete roper]

I suspect your catalytic converter in the exhaust is overheating due to over fueling. My first guess is a bad spark plug cap { known issue as they crack when not removed properly]  If you take the little covers with the moto guzzi badges off and watch in the dark you'll see a cracked one arcing to ground.  The resulting miss fire will send un burned gas into the exhaust overheating the catalytic converter.  Get some new NGK plug caps, # SB05E and carry on.

Listen to this man. This is almost certainly the source of your glowing pipe problem. What will of happened is someone has removed the plug caps by grabbing them with pliers or some such from the top and pulling them off. This causes the rubber to tear and then the spark will arc to earth on the rocker cover.  The plug caps should be removed by levering them up from underneath using a long, thin, flat bladed screwdriver inserted through the cooling tunnel in the head just above the exhaust manifold.

As for wearing the cost of inspection of the tappets, (They will be failing. They all do. No exceptions.) pulling the left hand cambox takes 15 minutes. The right hand one about 20 minutes more. There is a YouTube vid of me doing the left one somewhere. Perhaps someone else cleverer than me can link it up again. Your bike being a 2009 will need a 'C' kit. Ways of doing it cheaper have been explained before.

Pete

PS. I think this is the video link.

http://youtu.be/VYhG5leoUQk

[doctoriz]

Listen to this man. This is almost certainly the source of your glowing pipe problem. What will of happened is someone has removed the plug caps by grabbing them with pliers or some such from the top and pulling them off. This causes the rubber to tear and then the spark will arc to earth on the rocker cover.  The plug caps should be removed by levering them up from underneath using a long, thin, flat bladed screwdriver inserted through the cooling tunnel in the head just above the exhaust manifold.

As for wearing the cost of inspection of the tappets, (They will be failing. They all do. No exceptions.) pulling the left hand cambox takes 15 minutes. The right hand one about 20 minutes more. There is a YouTube vid of me doing the left one somewhere. Perhaps someone else cleverer than me can link it up again. Your bike being a 2009 will need a 'C' kit. Ways of doing it cheaper have been explained before.

Pete

PS. I think this is the video link.

http://youtu.be/VYhG5leoUQk

Pete, I am very much appreciative of your assistance here mate! I am mechanically inclined. I do much of my own work on my car, well things like brakes and rotors, etc. I watched the video and you make it look very easily, but it's properly done video and the only bits I wasn't sure about was, what was the pin that you were putting in the sides of the head? I assume that was to hold the cam and chain from spinning, but didn't see what the pins looked like. The other bit was when you said something of the sort, "this is the hardest part", as you were inserting the long screw driver and holding it tight, as you were moving the pin on the side. Can you clarify?

So, basically, this is the job to do the rollerization? I am not sure if you recommend a site that I can purchase the "C" kit for my Griso. I was told the total job to determine if I needed it rollerized and replaced was ~$1,400.00. The bike is definitely a keeper, but it was hefty amount to come up with. What do these kits run?

Also, in terms of the plug caps, is replacing the entire H.T. cable or just replace the cap itself?

I can't tell you how appreciative I am for the assistance here.

Once I know where to buy the "C" kit, I will just get cracking and get the upgrade done myself. I work pretty cheap! LOL.

Cheers,
Jon

[pete roper]

Have a look at this thread.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0

And ask further questions as required.

As for the kit? I'd suggest buy a 'B' kit from Teo Lamers and add in the other bits needed to make it up to a 'C' kit. Purchase only the head gaskets you need rather than the whole six supplied in the 'C' kit.

Other parts required are.

Four valve guide oil seals, four inlet valve shims, intake and exhaust manifold gaskets and two head gaskets of the same thickness as your originals.

Actually scrub that. It seems that the price in the US has been reduced making it probably just as cheap to buy a C

C kit from AF-1 and save yourself the hassle! They have them listed at $799 US! A month or so ago they were $1200!

Just did a bit of cross checking and even if you buy a B kit from TLM by the time you've added the extras and postage you might as well just chuck the money to AF-1 who are top blokes anyway.

 

Pete

[lucian]

Man, that's a smoking deal on the c kit ,, I paid 1,400 u.s. for mine two years ago.  Definately secure one of those while they are available.

[Dave Swanson]

Here's the link. 

https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=70079&sku=1A002082&description=Moto+Guzzi+Bucket+Tappet+Update+Kit+C+%2D+1A002082

[Dave Swanson]

And I happened to notice they have a great deal on a new 2016 Eldorado!

https://www.af1racingaustin.com/moto-guzzi-inventory/2016-moto-guzzi-eldorado-1400

[Sasquatch Jim]

Do not test the temperature by inserting your finger in to that exhaust when it glows red.
 Advice sort of like "Do not look into the laser with your remaining eye".

[John A]

Do not test the temperature by inserting your finger in to that exhaust when it glows red.
 Advice sort of like "Do not look into the laser with your remaining eye".

Is there another appendage you might suggest?

[MLR]

Never heard of anyone recommending 87 octane. Anybody else do this? I have always run hi-test.

[John A]

While I don't know the particulars , generally use only the highest the engine needs to prevent pre ignition or detonation. otherwise if the octane is too high, it burns too late to do anything but heat up the exhaust . 140 octane comes to mind.  That's the simple explanation as I understand it.

[lorazepam]

I try to buy ethanol free whenever I can.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 I get free gas from Taco Bell.

[Moto]

Never heard of anyone recommending 87 octane. Anybody else do this? I have always run hi-test.

The US-version manual, 2010 edition, for the Griso 1200 says:

"USA unleaded fuel minimum octane rating (R+M)/2 method 90"

So does the 2008 edition.

Moto

[pete roper]

The 8V will run on pretty much any old possum piss. It will run appreciably better on higher octane stuff. In Oz we are on the whole very lucky as our fuel quality, at least in populated areas near the coast, is consistently good! Far more so than in the US oddly enough!

The only time I've ever had issues with my Griso was travelling west from Gilgandra to Broken hill with a pack of hooligans. We filled up at some god-forsaken road house way out beyond the Black Stump and made the mistake of choosing the 95 octane. It must of been in the tanks for months, (Most vehicle's out there are diesels and petrol cars will all run standard unleaded.) and the next 200km which we covered at quite a fair clip were plagued by detonation problems. Next fill up we managed to get 98 from a place that obviously got a bit more traffic and the problem vanished. We don't have ethanol in most of our fuel either but I'd always suggest going with the highest octane you can find.

Pete

[beetle]

Pete, I'm pretty sure the closest that bowser ever got to 95 octane was when we pulled up next to it.

[Dilliw]

The tank decals are peeling due to the expansion of the plastic tank from corn gas? 

[LowRyter]

I wouldn't skimp on octane running a big-cylinder, air-cooled engine, especially in heat, humidity and traffic.

[MLR]

That's why I was surprised a dealer would recommend 87. My Norge is pretty sensitive to fuel quality.

[John A]

Any of mine sure seem to run better and get better milage with 92 octane. 100 from the airport, not so much, although you can tune to use it then you are stuck filling at airports.  I think it may be the case that the posted octane rating on the pump is overly optimistic

[lucian]

That's why I was surprised a dealer would recommend 87. My Norge is pretty sensitive to fuel quality.

The same dealer that wants 1400 dollars to inspect the cam followers, and likely broke the plug cap? What so surprising?

[doctoriz]

The same dealer that wants 1400 dollars to inspect the cam followers, and likely broke the plug cap? What so surprising?

Lucian, well said! The head guy told me, not only was it $1,400 to tear down the cambox, but he couldn't guarantee if Piaggio would pay for the upgrade kit, so he said that would be another ~$1,400. He said my bike would take the "C" kit, like Pete said and that is a much bigger job, so worst case scenario was $2,800 plus 6% sales tax and that would be half of the bikes worth. I just said, I will have to think it over and consider what to do. He just kept saying it was a complex job and costly.

He mentioned the fuel octane bit right afterwards. He asked me what fuel octane that I run in the bike, I said, 92 or 93 octane, which is what I've run in all my bikes. I have been always been of the mindset that the higher octane fuel would burning cleaner and makes the engine run more efficiently. He told me I was wrong! He said, don't run anything higher than 87 octane. Maybe he was thinking it was better to have the motor run hot to avoid moisture in the cam box leading to further issues with the flat tappets.

Thanks Pete for sharing your video and the link to the thread on how to do the job. The video seems very straightforward and I know I could do that, but if I have to take the head off, I might be over my head on the job. I am not sure what kit you were placing in the Griso you were working on, because you left the motor on the bike and didn't take the head off. Maybe taking the head off isn't a big deal, but I would ask, is there any specific tools for this job and is there a place with all the torque specs when reassembling?

If I am going to replace the H.T. cable caps, do I just cut the old off and rewire the new ones? Also, what do you recommend for new spark plugs, as I should probably replace the old ones. BTW, the mileage that is on my 2009 Giso is 5,963 to be exact. I will have to change the oil, what grade oil and is synthetic the way to go? Any recommendations.

Last two things off topic:
1. I also noticed a slight drip of oil coming from the flex hose bit where it connects to the oil pain. Is this a common problem and if so, do I just order a new hose?

2. The front caliper is dripping a little fluid onto the front rim. I don't know why, but it might just need a new gasket. Thoughts?

Thanks a million to all of you for your input!
Jon

[Kiwi Dave]

If I am going to replace the H.T. cable caps, do I just cut the old off and rewire the new ones? Also, what do you recommend for new spark plugs, as I should probably replace the old ones. BTW, the mileage that is on my 2009 Giso is 5,963 to be exact. I will have to change the oil, what grade oil and is synthetic the way to go? Any recommendations.

Dave Richardson of Moto International (when it was active) recommended NGK CR8EIX Platinum plugs
with NGK SB05F spark plug caps.

[pete roper]

Lucian, well said! The head guy told me, not only was it $1,400 to tear down the cambox, but he couldn't guarantee if Piaggio would pay for the upgrade kit, so he said that would be another ~$1,400. He said my bike would take the "C" kit, like Pete said and that is a much bigger job, so worst case scenario was $2,800 plus 6% sales tax and that would be half of the bikes worth. I just said, I will have to think it over and consider what to do. He just kept saying it was a complex job and costly.

He mentioned the fuel octane bit right afterwards. He asked me what fuel octane that I run in the bike, I said, 92 or 93 octane, which is what I've run in all my bikes. I have been always been of the mindset that the higher octane fuel would burning cleaner and makes the engine run more efficiently. He told me I was wrong! He said, don't run anything higher than 87 octane. Maybe he was thinking it was better to have the motor run hot to avoid moisture in the cam box leading to further issues with the flat tappets.

Thanks Pete for sharing your video and the link to the thread on how to do the job. The video seems very straightforward and I know I could do that, but if I have to take the head off, I might be over my head on the job. I am not sure what kit you were placing in the Griso you were working on, because you left the motor on the bike and didn't take the head off. Maybe taking the head off isn't a big deal, but I would ask, is there any specific tools for this job and is there a place with all the torque specs when reassembling?

If I am going to replace the H.T. cable caps, do I just cut the old off and rewire the new ones? Also, what do you recommend for new spark plugs, as I should probably replace the old ones. BTW, the mileage that is on my 2009 Giso is 5,963 to be exact. I will have to change the oil, what grade oil and is synthetic the way to go? Any recommendations.

Last two things off topic:
1. I also noticed a slight drip of oil coming from the flex hose bit where it connects to the oil pain. Is this a common problem and if so, do I just order a new hose?

2. The front caliper is dripping a little fluid onto the front rim. I don't know why, but it might just need a new gasket. Thoughts?

Thanks a million to all of you for your input!
Jon

Vis a vis the head removal the only other thing you have to do to get the head off is pull the exhaust manifolds and disconnect the inlet manifolds. You do one side at a time so the inlet manifold and throttle body just stay where they are. The head will just lift off. You leave the cam sprocket in the chain and rest it on the tensioner and guide blades.

The only real 'Special tools' you'll need are a valve spring compressor and a decent torque wrench. To answer your earlier question WRT the pin in the back of the barrel? You lever back the blade of the cam chain tensioner to collapse the tensioner plunger. You use the pin, which can be just about anything. (A small Allen key or the like. I often use an old carburettor needle.) goes through the tensioner blade and into a hole in the wall on the other side of the cam chain tunnel and holds the blade back so that when you come to putting the sprocket back on the cam there is ample free play in the chain. On the right hand barrel you just take the cap off the reservoir for the tensioner plunger to achieve the same thing.

Now before you throw yourself into this it is important to realise that this is undertaking major work on the engine. It's not particularly difficult but the consequences of stuffing something like the valve timing up on reassembly can be catastrophic. At the same time it has to be said that the 'Technician' at your shop scarcely fills one with confidence if he claims that inspecting the tappets is a $1,400 job! We charge about 6.5 hours for a 'C' kit install. It usually runs to about 8 if people take our advice and let us drop both the sump and the spacer to replace the spacer gasket. They usually do.

As for plugs? CR8EKB light the fire just fine. The SB05E caps just screw on to the stock plug leads. You may have to snip the brass screw fitting off the cap end of the HT lead.

Pete

PS. Fix that brake fluid leak! That's insanely dangerous!

[pete roper]

Last two things off topic:
1. I also noticed a slight drip of oil coming from the flex hose bit where it connects to the oil pain. Is this a common problem and if so, do I just order a new hose?

Sorry, forgot to address this one.

Get underneath and have a really good look at where that oil is coming from. It is very rare for the condensate return line to leak but having said that it is now ten years old so it may well of hardened up and be weeping.

What you need to make sure of is that the oil isn't coming out of the large slot at the bottom of the bell housing directly above the hose. If that area is wet with oil running from inside the bell housing it is, unfortunately, far more likely that you have the dreaded leaky rear main bearing flange.

Some of the 2008/9 A5 engines had the case poorly machined so the oil feed dowel wouldn't allow the flange to seat properly and the problem was exacerbated by the factory using too long bolts in the bottom two holes in the flange.

If your bike has this problem then the only solution is to pull the gearbox and clutch, remove the flange, file down the offending oil feed dowel a mm or two, replace the o-ring, (Prefferably with one of a slightly thicker section.) and refit the flange without the gasket but using a thin smear of threebond on the mating surface and two new bolts 5mm shorter in the bottom flange holes.

This is, needless to say, a pretty big job. If your shop wanted to charge you $1,400 to inspect the tappets they'd probably demand the entire contents of Fort Knox to pull the gearbox so let's hope it is the pipe!

If they do have to pull the flange make sure they have the correct tool and don't try to hammer it out from the inside with a punch like the one I had to deal with last year that had been 'Repaired' multiple times by one of the worst shaved apes I've ever encountered!





You can see the offending oil feed dowel in the next one.



You wouldn't want to use too little sicaflex now would you?



Barbarian!

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Now *that* is some serious shaved apery.. 
and to the OP, I wouldn't even consider taking it to that shop. They are clueless.