2009 Griso Red-Glowing Silencer

[pete roper]

Hope I haven't scared him off!

[doctoriz]

Hope I haven't scared him off!

No mate, I am not scared just yet! Like I said, the video link that you posted made this look fairly straight forward. I think possibly screwing up the timing and the head removal got me a little more concerned, so I've got to think about this a bit more, also including how many days it will take me -- ha!

I am pretty sure I can handle it, but I am curious how many out there on the forum have done the "C" kit replacement from soup-to-nuts?

Once I dig in I will be in deep and there will be no turning back! I am sure you all would help me if I got stuck along the way.

I will keep you posted. I need to get this done before the riding season here really gets underway!

Cheers,
Jon

[lucian]

Jon, I have a 2008, that I did a C kit on, there are a few things you want to be sure to get  right. One of them is to be sure you loosen the small bolt at the bottom rear of the cylinder head BEFORE you undo the head bolts. Not doing so could warp the head.  Also be very careful not to drop anything down the cam chain tunnels or oil feed passages. Cam timing will be no problem if you just do one side at a time and do not move the crank position off from TDC . Also be sure and keep track of your valves and return them to their original locations if you remove more than one at a time.  I made my own valve spring compression tool from a deep socket by cutting out one side and a big c-clamp.  A rod magnet is handy for removing the keepers.  Replacing your plug caps will cure the poor running , missfire and cat problem,but you really want to get the roller conversion done soon .  Best of luck with it!

[doctoriz]

Jon, I have a 2008, that I did a C kit on, there are a few things you want to be sure to get  right. One of them is to be sure you loosen the small bolt at the bottom rear of the cylinder head BEFORE you undo the head bolts. Not doing so could warp the head.  Also be very careful not to drop anything down the cam chain tunnels or oil feed passages. Cam timing will be no problem if you just do one side at a time and do not move the crank position off from TDC . Also be sure and keep track of your valves and return them to their original locations if you remove more than one at a time.  I made my own valve spring compression tool from a deep socket by cutting out one side and a big c-clamp.  A rod magnet is handy for removing the keepers.  Replacing your plug caps will cure the poor running , missfire and cat problem,but you really want to get the roller conversion done soon .  Best of luck with it!

Lucian,

Cheers mate! I most certainly appreciate you sharing your experience. I would approach this in stages, one side at a time, so that everything is taken apart in a systematic order and just would reassemble in the reverse. Judging by the looks of things, most of the bolts are metric allen? Did you need any long handle "T" allen keys? Where also able to track down a torque spec manual so that everything is retorqued to spec?

Pete, how long of a screw driver did you use as lever for the cam pin? I pegged it to be on the video something like 350 mil long and have no idea with width of end bit.

My hats of to you all for being such a lovely group!
Jon

[pete roper]

The length isn't critical but it needs to be thin enough to slip between the chain and tensioner blade and long enough to go down as far as the tensioner plunger.

The tensioner blade is very frangible, not fragile but it will crack if abused. The idea is to get the end of the screwdriver down and over the plunger so when you apply pressure you are pressing on the blade directly above the plunger so you aren't forcing the blade to flex. You just keep pressure on the screwdriver and feed the pin in through the hole in the back of the barrel. It will slip through the hole in the tensioner blade and when the plunger has collapsed sufficiently you will be able to feel it slip into the hole on the other side of the camchain tunnel.

Once it has done that you can release the pressure on the screwdriver and you will feel the tensioner blade try to push back towards the chain but it will be located and held by the pin.

You do this with the piston at or very close to TDC compression and when you then remove the cam sprocket retainer bolt and flinger plate you will be able to see the timing pin at the 6 O'clock position in line with the bore of the cylinder. The sprocket can then be wriggled off the cam and allowed to drop and sit in between the tensioner and guide blades for the chain.

Assuming you have already removed the exhaust header and disconnected the inlet manifold from the head all you then need to do is loosen and remove the two long bolts (8mm head, 6mm shank.) that clamp the back of the cam chain tunnel before removing the four main stud nuts that retain the cambox and head.

The cambox can then be removes as shown in the video before finally the cylinder head can be slid off the studs. Take note that on two of the studs between both the barrel and head and head and cambox there are dowels. These are the studs that also act as oil galleries feeding oil to the cam bearings and weir. Not only do they do that but they also positively align the head and cambox casting. Note where they go and don't loose them! It might be worth purchasing a couple of new ones, (They only cost pennies.) as it is easy to bugger them up pulling them out of the cambox.

Pete

[doctoriz]

The length isn't critical but it needs to be thin enough to slip between the chain and tensioner blade and long enough to go down as far as the tensioner plunger.

The tensioner blade is very frangible, not fragile but it will crack if abused. The idea is to get the end of the screwdriver down and over the plunger so when you apply pressure you are pressing on the blade directly above the plunger so you aren't forcing the blade to flex. You just keep pressure on the screwdriver and feed the pin in through the hole in the back of the barrel. It will slip through the hole in the tensioner blade and when the plunger has collapsed sufficiently you will be able to feel it slip into the hole on the other side of the camchain tunnel.

Once it has done that you can release the pressure on the screwdriver and you will feel the tensioner blade try to push back towards the chain but it will be located and held by the pin.

You do this with the piston at or very close to TDC compression and when you then remove the cam sprocket retainer bolt and flinger plate you will be able to see the timing pin at the 6 O'clock position in line with the bore of the cylinder. The sprocket can then be wriggled off the cam and allowed to drop and sit in between the tensioner and guide blades for the chain.

Assuming you have already removed the exhaust header and disconnected the inlet manifold from the head all you then need to do is loosen and remove the two long bolts (8mm head, 6mm shank.) that clamp the back of the cam chain tunnel before removing the four main stud nuts that retain the cambox and head.

The cambox can then be removes as shown in the video before finally the cylinder head can be slid off the studs. Take note that on two of the studs between both the barrel and head and head and cambox there are dowels. These are the studs that also act as oil galleries feeding oil to the cam bearings and weir. Not only do they do that but they also positively align the head and cambox casting. Note where they go and don't loose them! It might be worth purchasing a couple of new ones, (They only cost pennies.) as it is easy to bugger them up pulling them out of the cambox.

Pete

Pete, you are good mate to have on this forum! Thank you so much! I will keep you all posted!

Cheers,
Jon

[doctoriz]

Pete or anyone here,

Does anyone have a PDF or link for the 2009 Moto Guzzi Griso 8V, 1200 workshop manual? I have searched, but not much is coming up. I just thought I would ask. I am looking for torque specs for the bike when I pushon with reassembly after rollerization is complete. I want to make sure everything is to spec.

Thanks,
Jon

[Kiwi Dave]

Does anyone have a PDF or link for the 2009 Moto Guzzi Griso 8V, 1200 workshop manual?

This one should work.

http://www.guzzigander.com/Griso%201200SE%20SM.pdf

[Bulldog9]

I'm a decent wrench and not afraid of much, but this in head cam system with the intermediate shaft and upper chain system makes me very hesitant to try. NO offense but looking at your logic and approach thus far, I think youre making a mistake attempting to fix it on your own.  BTW, I think that you are dumping unburnt gas into your cat and muffler..... This is why it is all glowy red.... You likely need to do the plug upgrade. Simple task, 5 minute job.  I've had good luck with MG Cycle and AF1 for decals. AF1 has a parts microfiche you can order straight off by part number.


Welcome to the forum & look forward to seeing you get your Griso straight!

[doctoriz]

This one should work.

http://www.guzzigander.com/Griso%201200SE%20SM.pdf

Thanks Kiwi Dave! This is what I was looking for!

Mate, I appreciate you coming through for me on the workshop manual for my bike!

Cheers,
Jon

[doctoriz]

I'm a decent wrench and not afraid of much, but this in head cam system with the intermediate shaft and upper chain system makes me very hesitant to try. NO offense but looking at your logic and approach thus far, I think youre making a mistake attempting to fix it on your own.  BTW, I think that you are dumping unburnt gas into your cat and muffler..... This is why it is all glowy red.... You likely need to do the plug upgrade. Simple task, 5 minute job.  I've had good luck with MG Cycle and AF1 for decals. AF1 has a parts microfiche you can order straight off by part number.


Welcome to the forum & look forward to seeing you get your Griso straight!

Bulldog9,

I appreciate your honesty, sincerity, and perspective on the topic of DIY rollerization of my 2009 Griso. I can assure you that I am not taking this job light at all. I have my doubts and don't want to bollack the job by any means. As I had mentioned in prior posts, I am pretty good with mechanical repairs. I put a clutch in one of my cars in my younger days and perhaps that job was less complex than dealing with the rollerization. When it comes to timing, I certainly don't want to screw that up and end up bending a value or shooting straight out of the cam headcover, which is why I wanted to get a copy of the workshop manual on my bike. I want to research all aspects of the job and size up if I feel capable. Wisdom tells me to look at all options and make the best decision, which may end up with me taking my bike to the dealer and having them do the job. I am going to put a call into the dealer and see if the cost of the job has decreased fom 2-years ago. If it is more reasonable, I may just have them do it, as they will be able to get it done faster than I can.

Thanks again for the input,
Jon

[pete roper]

The system used on the Hi-Cam 8V is really very simple. It's one of it's joys of a system that uses an intermediate gear for the speed reduction. One of the things I like about engines like that in the SWM/Husky and say the Aprilia Shiver which are DOHC designs is that by using an intermediate gear you make valve checks a snap.

While that is already the case with Guzzis the simplicity and ease of timing the cams correctly is really no different to the way it's done on the old pushrod engines, it's just that you have to line things up once each side rather than just once in the timing chest. Since the primary timing system is by gear and the chains seem to last a very, very long time this means that going into the bottom end will be a very rare occurrence.

They are a beautifully simple engines. Don't be afraid of them.

Pete

[doctoriz]

I suspect your catalytic converter in the exhaust is overheating due to un burnt  fuel. My first guess is a bad spark plug cap { known issue as they crack when not removed properly]  If you take the little covers with the moto guzzi badges off and watch in the dark you'll see a cracked one arcing to ground.  The resulting miss fire will send un burned gas into the exhaust overheating the catalytic converter.  Get some new NGK plug caps, # SB05E and carry on.

Ok everyone,

I took off the side covers and took off the H.T. cable caps, which turns out to be: NGK-CR 3 SD05EMK. I am not sure if the operation will be the same as the cutting off the stock caps and replacing them with the NGK SB05E. I don't want to make any assumptions.
I did try to see if I could just order replacement wires, but all I could find was: CR3/8089, which are ~$15 USD, but don't know if they are the same. I might have to call NGK and check with them.

Nonetheless, I would suspect that I can just snip off the cap end and put the NGK SB05E.

Thoughts??

Thanks,
Jon

[Darren Williams]

Those are not stock. Already been changed.

[lucian]

     Yes, you can snip those off and screw on the new ones.  Sure looks like a carbon track in the last photo near your thumb.  I would  cut those suckers off and screw on the sbo5e's  .  You can try firing it up in a dark place with the old ones and watch for an ark but it may be arcing down inside the plug tube a ways making it harder to see. You can sometimes hear it snapping as well.  But why bother if you have the new ones , There cheap enough, just throw them on and be done with it.  Any copper core HT lead from an auto parts store will do if you want to switch out the wires.  Good luck!

[pete roper]

Yah. I'd make sure that the HT lead you use is copper core rather than the graphite or whatever ones they use nowadays. For some reason Guzzi don't seem to like them.

[doctoriz]

     Yes, you can snip those off and screw on the new ones.  Sure looks like a carbon track in the last photo near your thumb.  I would  cut those suckers off and screw on the sbo5e's  .  You can try firing it up in a dark place with the old ones and watch for an ark but it may be arcing down inside the plug tube a ways making it harder to see. You can sometimes hear it snapping as well.  But why bother if you have the new ones , There cheap enough, just throw them on and be done with it.  Any copper core HT lead from an auto parts store will do if you want to switch out the wires.  Good luck!

I did try to start it with the plug caps off and obviously it won't start, but I didn't see any arch nor hear any crackles, but I am going to cut them off and put the NGK SB05E caps on tomorrow.

Cheers,
Jon

[lucian]

Jon . You would have to have the caps on to start it up and watch/ listen for arcing. in the dark. No point to it really,other that satisfying curiosity.Just put your new ones on. I would throw a set of plugs in while your at it as a bad one could also be causing the miss fire. Any good auto store should have them and I would stay with the NGK plugs if possible.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I did try to start it with the plug caps off

Modern ignitions don't like that. I wouldn't do it unless you have a grounded plug on it.

[pete roper]

Could always try the old trick of sticking his tongue in the cap and putting a hand on the cylinder head before pressing the starter.

No. Don't! Really, it wouldn't be a good idea.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I know a kid that tried to stop a Gravely tractor by peeing on the spark plug..

[doctoriz]

Gentlemen,

The first operation is complete. I have performed the spark plug cap replacements and it fired up and idled smoothly. I took her out for a test ride just around the block and I have to say, WOW---She is BACK!

 

The acceleration is streamline and there is not bogging down anymore. The silencer was not glowing orange-red, as before! The only thing I noticed when I first started it was some subtle smoke out of the exhaust, but that seem to clear. I suspect it may be residue in the silencer from the issue that started me out here.

I have to say a BIG thank you to both Lucian and Pete for this very straightforward and simple fix. I can at least ride some whilst I prepare further research into the tappet upgrade. I am going to order the "C" kit in the next week and figure out what really is the best way to go. I have a call into the closest Guzzi dealership and will see what the labor would cost and how long they would have it for.

I am confident I can do this job myself, but I do appreciate the words of wisdom from both Bulldog9 and Pete. Two different perspectives and I need to weigh my options and budget.

I have included a picture of the old plugs. The left cylinder plug looked much worse than the right, so I am inclined to think that the problem was on the left spark cap.

In the meantime, I am going to look at getting new oil and a new filter. What are your recommendations?

I also looked at the spark plug torque specs which call for 30Nm, unfortunately, my torque wrench only goes down to 30Nm, so I may have to invest in another one for smaller torques. Any suggestions on that, too?

I am most gracious for the assistance here!

Cheers,
Jon




upload picture

[lucian]

    New plugs,   spin in by hand with only an extension on your plug socket , No ratchet,fingers on the extension like a screwdriver, until snug, then add your ratchet and give em 3/4 turn. Done...   Used plugs  1/2  turn .  If you want to take a 9 hr road trip to Maine I'd be happy to help you with the rollerization when the time comes. Hopefully some closer will be available but the offer stands. Glad your back on the mighty Griss.

[doctoriz]

  New plugs,   spin in by hand with only an extension on your plug socket , No ratchet,fingers on the extension like a screwdriver, until snug, then add your ratchet and give em 3/4 turn. Done...   Used plugs  1/2  turn .  If you want to take a 9 hr road trip to Maine I'd be happy to help you with the rollerization when the time comes. Hopefully some closer will be available but the offer stands. Glad your back on the mighty Griss.

BRAVO! Lucian, it would be a great trip and I've never been to Maine, so you never know. I sincerely appreciate the offer!!!! You just might see me!

Jon

[lucian]

Sorry Jon , I missed the oil and filter question. Any full synthetic 10 w 60 oil  will do. Most Nappa auto part stores will have Liquid moly available. I  usually mail order my filters from Seacoast sport cycles in N.H. They will ship you Silkolean 10 /60 also.  Great Guzzi dealer here in the north east. If you don't have a cup wrench for your filter they will  have one of those as well.  Cheers!

[pete roper]

I would strongly advise against riding it or even starting it again until it is rollerised.

Pete

[lucian]

Pete makes a valid point. Without knowing the condition of the flat followers it would be wise to get it rollerized asap. If the DLC coating has begun shedding { mine started at only 3,000 miles} it can go downhill very fast and you risk a complete horror show if that DLC ends up in the big end bearings. Unfortunately, it's not if it fails but when. Kind of a ticking time bomb.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'll pile on. Don't ride it again until rollerized.

[doctoriz]

Sorry Jon , I missed the oil and filter question. Any full synthetic 10 w 60 oil  will do. Most Nappa auto part stores will have Liquid moly available. I  usually mail order my filters from Seacoast sport cycles in N.H. They will ship you Silkolean 10 /60 also.  Great Guzzi dealer here in the north east. If you don't have a cup wrench for your filter they will  have one of those as well.  Cheers!

I am happy to use them. Can you order online?
Also, what make and model oil filter to you use?

Thanks,
Jon

[doctoriz]

I would strongly advise against riding it or even starting it again until it is rollerised.

Pete

Thanks Pete, Lucian, and Chuck from Indiana!

I figured you guys would say that! I will follow accordingly!

Now just got to get on with it finding out do I have the dealer do it or just hunker down and order the "C" kit and start the job myself.

Pete, Lucian, or anyone else, is any specific tools I might need? A special torque wrench? I discovered mine only goes down to 30Nm, so I need one that goes down to 5Nm. Any suggestions?

Also, what about a torque wrench for the allen head bolts?

Thank you kindly in advance,
Jon