Startups Interuptus....what Can be done?

[travelingbyguzzi]

At the side of the road. Actually, I am in my buddy’s garage, but I am 300 miles from home. I can hear a tiny click from one of the relays when the starter button is pushed but cannot tell which one. Pulled them out ,swapped a couple, but no joy.  ‘08 1200 Sport 2v. 82k miles. Never happened before.

[normzone]

I'm sorry to hear that your machine is giving you grief - experts will be along shortly, so I'll ask stupid questions to keep you entertained until they get here.

Kill switch on?
Clean battery terminals?
Good battery charge?
Lights and all that stuff working?
I'm not familiar with a bike as new as yours, but somebody who is will be here shortly.

[MLR]

Don't know much about the relays but the first thing I would check would be the connections at the battery and starter.

[travelingbyguzzi]

We had just ridden 300 miles from the NorCal Nata-rally to Bend. Terminals are clean, played with the kill switch, dash recognizes with a light that the side stand is down.
The little button the clutch lever pushes in does not go very far in but pushing it in with my finger makes no difference. Of course it is in Neutral. The dash recognizes this.

[Gusable]

Starter contacts? Can you get a hand on the starter while you hit the button? Might feel a click.  Maybe a lite tap on the starter while hitting start?

[fotoguzzi]

Load test battery

[travelingbyguzzi]

Well, we are back in business. Once it cooled down, it lit right off. Still, something to worry over, but at least I can worry at home.

 I wonder which relay the starter circuit goes thru. They are not real easy to get to. Are they a specialized relay or can they be sourced at autozone.

 Electrical stuff is my tin ear, my Achilles heel.

[bratman2]

Mine started doing that again after doing the mod sometime later. Pulled, cleaned and greased the starter internally eliminated mine.

[Dilliw]

Well, we are back in business. Once it cooled down, it lit right off. Still, something to worry over, but at least I can worry at home.

 I wonder which relay the starter circuit goes thru. They are not real easy to get to. Are they a specialized relay or can they be sourced at autozone.

 Electrical stuff is my tin ear, my Achilles heel.

That's what my EV does!

[keener]

 

[normzone]

I had an old Toyota Corolla that had a dying starter/solenoid.

When it was cool it worked fine - when you shut it off hot it would not start again until the starter/solenoid cooled off.

Until payday and I could afford a new starter/solenoid, I carried ice in a cooler and an old towel. When I ran errands I'd pop the hood as soon as I got to the store and put an icepack on the device. When I came out of the store it would be ready to go.

[Kiwi_Roy]

According to Carl's drawings you 1200 Sport is the same as the Norge ABS
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge_ABS.gif

This is classic Startus Interruptus. The starter solenoid would like to pull 50 Amps but it's severely restricted by the wiring through the ignition switch.

With the Breva and other CARC bikes the owners cut the yellow wire just before the relay and feed it directly from the battery via an in-line 20 Amp fuse.
Tape up the other end of the yellow wire, it still feeds the number plate light

If you were to watch the Number plate light at the time the bike refused to start you would likely see it dim right out when you press the Start button.
Letting the bike cool down a bit or operating the ignition switch sometimes provides just a tiny bit more current for the solenoid to do it's thing but a better supply from the battery ensures it will work.
Moto Guzzi have been shipping bikes out the door with weak starter wiring for at least 40 years, they are not likely to change anytime soon. I don't believe they are aware that the solenoid draws so much current.

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Have had a 2008 1200 Sport since Nov. 2013. Heard about this crazy behavior but diidn't think it would happen until August 2015 WHEN IT DID!  In the parking lot of a Lowes and NOTHING... but after waiting 30 minutes it started up.

One month later, same thing!  Waited 30 minutes and it started. Enough of that! Sent for the KIT, installed it  (very easy) and NO PROBLEMS SINCE! Get the kit!

[travelingbyguzzi]

Thanx, Roy. I knew it was the Startus Interuptus issue. I just didn’t (and still don’t) know what to do about it. Number plate? Huh? Are you coming down to Deep Forest over 4th of July? Did heat have anything to do with it. I have to get from Bend, OR to Seattle tomorrow and it might get pretty warm.

[travelingbyguzzi]

Roy, read your post to my buddy (Gary Steele). He suggested by number plate light that you meant license plate light. Yes?

[Kiwi_Roy]

I think it's a combination of lots of things, heat little bit of corrosion on connectors, perhaps the battery Voltage is slightly low, but you could sum it up as too much Voltage drop between the battery and the solenoid.
If it plays up on your trip try flicking the ignition switch a few times, it may get a better contact.
It's not a bad idea to be familiar with Hot wiring the solenoid to the battery bypassing switches and logic, just 3 ft of wire with a spade connector to plug onto the solenoid and touch the battery positive you will notice how much faster it roars into life, that's how it should always be.

LOL yes, licence plate light, it's wired to the same circuit like a built in trouble light

Yes I would like to come to deep forest, I always enjoy that get together.

[Huzo]

The only time mine did it (‘07 Norge) was outside the Collosseum in Rome parked illegally.
At least it picked a classy place to soil itself.
I did the standard fix of pulling the yellow wire and sealing it off, then running a fused heavier gauge wire back into the terminal block directly from the battery.
That was at 60,000 k and never done it since, now 175,000 k.

[twodogs]

When I had my sport it turned out to be the ground down by the starter, it started coming loose and would not start till I tighten it up but felt soft, I ended up having to heli coil it and never had a issue after that. Good luck.

[Wayne Orwig]

The factory passes the solenoid power through the ignition switch. Wiggle the switch. And any connectors nearby.
It gets passed through TWO fuses. Remove and clean the fuses. Maybe even replace them.
Replace the relays. Can't hurt.
Often, I have seen it be the starter itself. Since the electrical system is so weak, any problems with the starter are magnified so to speak. The heat in the solenoid coils makes it perform poorly. When it cools down, it works better. Disassembling the starter and cleaning it up helps. Including polishing out any high spots on the solenoid plunger.

Do the startus interruptus fix and be done with it.
Also, learn how to bump start, in case.
 

[LouisianaLightning]

In the spirit of "what can be done", my curiosity wanted to ask:

Since the startus interruptus only seems to rear on hot, humid, miserable days after hours of riding for my breva, could the system benefit from a PTC thermistor? Or would this likely just exacerbate the voltage-drop premise?

[Zoom Zoom]

You asked about a relay. Yes you can find what you need from a local auto parts store.

ZZ

[Wayne Orwig]

In the spirit of "what can be done", my curiosity wanted to ask:

Since the startus interruptus only seems to rear on hot, humid, miserable days after hours of riding for my breva, could the system benefit from a PTC thermistor? Or would this likely just exacerbate the voltage-drop premise?

Where would you put this thermistor? The problem is too much power loss in the system that feeds the solenoid. (or a sticky solenoid) I thermistor (variable resistance) would add more loss to the system.

[Texas Turnip]

It is not the heat as more than once I went to the shop to start the B11 and it wouldn't start. Called Beaver and said Id be delayed by 1/2 hour and sho nuff it started. With the B11 there was no rhyme or reason of when it would act up and not start. I was one of the early high mileage riders on the B11 ;and took it to MPH in Houston and jokingly said you only have 1/2 hour to find the problem. They made a kit to fix it and Wayne Orwig had a fix for it.

Tex

[ozarquebus]

I am no Startus Interruptus Expertius, but On my 81 G5, it just needed a redundant fused direct +12V wire added from the ignition "on" fuse terminal to the same terminal on the starter relay that is hot when ignition is on. (not the starter button wire) I left the old wire connected. It still went through the ignition switch, but it bypassed the stock fuse and some connections and some wandering wire original wiring with a better sealed fuse in a more direct and cleaner electrical path. I don't know about newer bikes, but this topic is abundant in the archives.
 Like others say. It is a combination of things, but improving one part of the starter system at a time may keep it above the point of failure.

[Chuck in Indiana]

More than once, I've seen a corroded spade terminal on the starter solenoid itself do this.

[John Warner]

Rewired the Starter Solenoid Circuit on my Stelvio.
Was occasionally getting the 'Startus Interruptus' issue, either very sluggish spinning, or the 'Click'~no start and blank Dash scenario.

I was going to take a feed from the Battery to the Solenoid Terminal (the small 'Spade' Terminal), but then thought "why not just take one directly from the main Positive Lead on the Solenoid Post?"

Used nice chunky Wires, all connections are soldered, and they're also soldered to the Relay Terminals.





The original wire to the Solenoid now only activates the Relay, which in turn switches the current directly from the Primary Post on the Solenoid (so direct from the Battery), to the Spade Terminal.

It still struggles to turn over occasionally, but never fails to start.
I think the Solenoid Contacts need a clean up, but you can't get to them, not without cutting through the casing anyway.
Could also be my Battery getting tired, it's been in since Jan 2016.

[Dharma Bum]

Made my own from an old Hella relay and wiring .

Green wire connected to the red wire that formerly went to the small starter terminal, blue wire to the starter terminal,  red and black to their respective battery posts. Easy peasy.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Made my own from an old Hella relay and wiring .

Green wire connected to the red wire that formerly went to the small starter terminal, blue wire to the starter terminal,  red and black to their respective battery posts. Easy peasy.

Thats another way of doing it, add another relay. You could also have kept these wires local to the starter solenoid area powered from the large hot terminal  I prefer to use a fuse but not really necessary.

Rewired the Starter Solenoid Circuit on my Stelvio.
Was occasionally getting the 'Startus Interruptus' issue, either very sluggish spinning, or the 'Click'~no start and blank Dash scenario.

I was going to take a feed from the Battery to the Solenoid Terminal (the small 'Spade' Terminal), but then thought "why not just take one directly from the main Positive Lead on the Solenoid Post?"

Used nice chunky Wires, all connections are soldered, and they're also soldered to the Relay Terminals.





The original wire to the Solenoid now only activates the Relay, which in turn switches the current directly from the Primary Post on the Solenoid (so direct from the Battery), to the Spade Terminal.

It still struggles to turn over occasionally, but never fails to start.
I think the Solenoid Contacts need a clean up, but you can't get to them, not without cutting through the casing anyway.
Could also be my Battery getting tired, it's been in since Jan 2016.

Yes battery I think

It is not the heat as more than once I went to the shop to start the B11 and it wouldn't start. Called Beaver and said Id be delayed by 1/2 hour and sho nuff it started. With the B11 there was no rhyme or reason of when it would act up and not start. I was one of the early high mileage riders on the B11 ;and took it to MPH in Houston and jokingly said you only have 1/2 hour to find the problem. They made a kit to fix it and Wayne Orwig had a fix for it.

Tex

One thing the two previous posts cover that the MPH kit doesn't  (AFAIK) is the woefully small wire from the relay down to the solenoid, that wire on some bikes looks like a 20 AWG probably 0.5 mm I think, on my early Griso I changed just that wire for an 18 AWG
and the solenoid operated 3 x as fast (I measured it). This wire should be a 16 gauge (1.5mm I think) Think 50 Amps for a split second and you will be about right.
If you look at a Griso 1100 you will se the starter relay is fed more direct NOT through the ignition switch.

I keep dragging this drawing out. its time I revised it but i'm too lazy

An early VII Sport was probably the least likely to ever suffer from Startus Interuptus, the start relay was wired Battery, fuse, relay the way it should be and the way you are changing one MPH at the time.
I dont advocate adding a relay base, you have enough complication already.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Note:
         This is a very old thread, I'm sure Bill has long since solved his problem.

[travelingbyguzzi]

I am not sure it was ever really a problem. Twice in 100K miles has it failed to start from what MIGHT be startus interuptus. I did, finally, about a month ago, install MPH’s harness patch. It was very simple and for $40 dollars, may or may not have saved me some downtime down the road.
Due to the current (-) traffic volumes, I have been doing my 40 freeway mile commute on my 1100Sport I, which is a joy when you can blaze and a chore in stop and go conditions.
A happy Summer to you all.

Bill Lovelady             IS
Eskimo Spy