Author Topic: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC  (Read 1200 times)

Offline rdbandkab

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BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« on: August 16, 2019, 07:21:00 AM »
From ADVrider -
BMW of North America, LLC has been slapped with a proposed class-action lawsuit.  The plaintiff claims that BMW placed its customers’ safety at issue by selling motorcycles with faulty gear indicators.  The suit alleges that the defective gear indicators increased the risk of accidents and poses other safety concerns.

The complaint, filed in a New Jersey federal court was filed on behalf of Daniel Casey.  He claims the indicators intermittently displayed the wrong gear or didn’t display any gear at all.  Casey also claims that the faulty indicators have been the subject of many customer complaints.

According to the court documents, the defective gear indicators are produced on F, K, G, R, HP2 and S series BMW motorcycles manufactured between 2003 and 2019.  The complaint also says “BMW has long known about the problem but has not notified consumers.”


As such, BMW is accused of breaching express and implied warranties and being unjustly enriched.  Casey is seeking class-action status and asks for monetary damages, punitive damages, court costs, and expenses as well as attorney fees.

The case
In a nutshell, the case alleges that Casey’s BMW motorcycle began showing the wrong gear or no gear in May 2017.  The problems continued despite four repairs.

As a result, Casey says the defective gear indicator:

impedes him from properly judging accelerating power and torque delivery;
places the motorcycle in incorrect gear while on cruise control;
reduces gas mileage
causes “excessive strain” on the motor among other things.
In his court filings, Casey says that BMW knew about the defective gear indicators as a result of complaints that appear on BMW online forums as well as failures reported to dealers or the company itself.

The amount of claimed damages is not specified.  But it is important to note that the complaint seeks punitive damages which are meant to punish the seller and can be very large sums of money.

So if all of what Casey claims is true, do you think defective gear indicators are a safety concern?  Should BMW be required to pay a settlement?  Do you think that large punitive damages are appropriate?  If so, what amount do you think is appropriate?

Just thought it was interesting.

Reminds me....I have to fix my neutral indicator light!

richy
(hopefully, this isn't a re-post)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 07:21:54 AM by rdbandkab »

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2019, 07:25:50 AM »

As a result, Casey says the defective gear indicator:

impedes him from properly judging accelerating power and torque delivery;
places the motorcycle in incorrect gear while on cruise control;
reduces gas mileage
causes “excessive strain” on the motor among other things.


Sounds like COMPLETE horse-shyte! I mean for gawd's sake, since when has anyone NEEDED a gear indicator to ride a motorcycle? You don't need to KNOW what gear you're in... if motor spins too fast, shift up, if motor spins too slow/lugs, shift down. Problem solved.

But I gotta ask, WTF is he talking about regarding incorrect gear on cruise?!? These aren't automatics right? So who places it in the incorrect gear, the moron who sets it without "knowing" if it is 4, 5, or 6 ????

Sounds completely frivolous. Like a lawyer/rider with too much time and entitlement on his hands... or worse
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2019, 07:29:15 AM »
 Seriously , who looks at anything but the neutral light when stopped , plaintiff is a weenie who doesn't know how to ride and is blaming it on the motorcycle . I know a guy just like that .

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Offline s1120

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2019, 07:38:40 AM »
Well OK... you don't need one, and frankly most class action lawsuits only pay out to the lawyers firm AFAIAK.  That being said.... if the bike came with one, and its under warrantee, BMW should be fixing them if they are broke.
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2019, 07:51:07 AM »
That being said.... if the bike came with one, and its under warrantee, BMW should be fixing them if they are broke.

I'm not getting that they are denying any warranty claims from that? Do you have additional info?
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2019, 08:01:56 AM »
Well I've been here before, I like a gear indicator if I can have one, it's one less thing to do or mentally note (and with my intellect the fewer things to remember the better).

I find with my old 5 speeders (Guzzis) that I don't need it, the gear ratios are far enough apart to easily know what ratio you're in but with 6 speeders I find it harder to tell.

I think they have their place but to argue they are a must, is absolute rubbish.

I don't know about the cruise control function though. If it's anything like the type I have had in a car then you can engage it in the higher gears and when you change gear the cruise control disconnects. I would doubt it's more sophisticated than that, but I just don't know 

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2019, 08:20:36 AM »
I agree ..... silly law suit.  But as a few on here said, BMW should fix them.  Customer bought the bike expecting it to work.

When I bought my first BMW in 1985, the bike came with a 'new-fangled' speedometer with no cable, but still with mechanical odometer.  I think they were made by MotoMeter, and during the first several years, many of them failed.  The small shop in Greensburg PA had a stack of small boxes each containing an individual speedo being returned to BMW,  Gary, one of the owners, looked at me in dismay and exclaimed "what the h*** am I running, a motorcycle sales and service facility or a speedometer warranty shop?!"  By a stack, I mean 20-25 units.

But BMW did step up and take care of it.  There was no class action lawsuit involved.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 08:22:14 AM by ohiorider »
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 08:22:06 AM »
I don't know about the cruise control function though. If it's anything like the type I have had in a car then you can engage it in the higher gears and when you change gear the cruise control disconnects. I would doubt it's more sophisticated than that, but I just don't know

On all the bikes I've ridden with cruise (mostly BMWs and Harleys) the system disengages if you tap a brake leverl/pedal or touch the clutch.
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Offline s1120

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2019, 08:38:01 AM »
I'm not getting that they are denying any warranty claims from that? Do you have additional info?

Nope no more info.. ...  I read into that, that they were not fixing them when they failed..  Maybe im wrong, but why have a lawsuit if they are fixing them?
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 08:45:03 AM »
 What these types of lawsuits will really do is convince the manufacturers to install automatic transmissions in all new products .

 Dusty
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Offline acogoff

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 08:55:35 AM »
     Well, as long as they don't catch on fire there is probably no grounds for a suit. Oh, wait, were not some defective burning final drives a while back not grounds either.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 08:56:03 AM by acogoff »
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 09:00:07 AM »
Nope no more info.. ...  I read into that, that they were not fixing them when they failed..  Maybe im wrong, but why have a lawsuit if they are fixing them?

Well if it was just breach of warranty I would expect it to be worded differently.

But here's what I'm thinking:

Quote
According to the court documents, the defective gear indicators are produced on F, K, G, R, HP2 and S series BMW motorcycles manufactured between 2003 and 2019.  The complaint also says “BMW has long known about the problem but has not notified consumers.”


As such, BMW is accused of breaching express and implied warranties and being unjustly enriched.  Casey is seeking class-action status and asks for monetary damages, punitive damages, court costs, and expenses as well as attorney fees.

It includes 2003-2019, so the VAST majority of bikes it covers are LONG LONG LONG out of warranty. I suspect either they break again after they are fixed (like Guzzi CARC dashes) or many didn't break until after warranty.

It even says "breaching IMPLIED warranties" so it's suggesting it is something that is a pattern and shouldn't be breaking etc.

But mostly I suspect this is about A. being butt hurt about it and/or B. the lawyers making money.

Seriously, I could get behind a suit like this on say those CARC dashes or non-rollerized 8V's (if they weren't being fixed) but a GEAR INDICATOR? - he should hand in his man card NOW.
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2019, 09:52:59 AM »
I'd say that is true of just about any motorcycle with a gear change indicator.

How about dodgy neutral lights?
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2019, 10:50:26 AM »
Well if it was just breach of warranty I would expect it to be worded differently.

But here's what I'm thinking:

It includes 2003-2019, so the VAST majority of bikes it covers are LONG LONG LONG out of warranty. I suspect either they break again after they are fixed (like Guzzi CARC dashes) or many didn't break until after warranty.

It even says "breaching IMPLIED warranties" so it's suggesting it is something that is a pattern and shouldn't be breaking etc.

But mostly I suspect this is about A. being butt hurt about it and/or B. the lawyers making money.

Seriously, I could get behind a suit like this on say those CARC dashes or non-rollerized 8V's (if they weren't being fixed) but a GEAR INDICATOR? - he should hand in his man card NOW.
Unfortunately, the Guzzi community is well-aware of the dash issues on CARC bikes.  I'm certain this has an effect on used bike prices, and makes the selling effort difficult.  Right now, I'm running with Kev M's spare he picked up when he still rode a Breva 1100.  I have a perfectly lovely 1200 Sport dashboard with white face and black numbers.  Can't be repaired, per Carmo in Netherlands, since they can't source the little LCD panel.  I've tried in vain to get a response from the dash manufacturer's (DigiTek) US headquarters (3 letters and one phone call,) to see if they could provide info re the LCD panel.  No response, not even to a registered letter.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 08:21:36 PM by ohiorider »
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2019, 11:30:56 AM »
I have one of the affected BMW bikes, and the gear indicators- Both the neutral indicator and the 1 through 6 gear indicator- Are not to be relied upon. If BMW is going to put a gear indicator on these bikes, it shouldn't indicate "N" for neutral when it's really in gear... That is a safety hazard. This is just one of the long list of BMW defects like the GS paralever, airhead missing transmission circlip, and final drive bearing failures that need to be addressed.
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Offline s1120

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2019, 11:48:38 AM »

But mostly I suspect this is about A. being butt hurt about it and/or B. the lawyers making money.

Seriously, I could get behind a suit like this on say those CARC dashes or non-rollerized 8V's (if they weren't being fixed) but a GEAR INDICATOR? - he should hand in his man card NOW.

LOL  Agree 100%   

the things ive seen being in the automotive side of the world, and people that blow up the slightest little fault to be the end all do a end of the world case..  its crazy..  Well ya.... I guess your kid COULD be killed if your door handle works a little stiff...  but really...  the moon could crash into his bedroom also...   
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Offline Ncdan

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2019, 03:52:02 PM »
I like my gear indicator because I loose count after 3rd😂
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 07:21:12 PM by Ncdan »

Offline Darren Williams

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2019, 04:15:38 PM »
Irritant on an expensive top end bike, but I don’t see it as really essential. I don’t know how I rode all those bikes without one, like my Griso.

Sounds frivolous to me. In my experience BMW has been pretty responsive to things under warranty.
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2019, 04:44:37 PM »
he should hand in his man card NOW.
Good one, Kev.  :grin:

Agree 100% - the guy's probably an out-of-work lawyer trying to make ends meet (and the bike payments).

The complaint says it was repaired four times - though still not fixed. That could be irritating, but does say the shop tried to fix it. So it's not a situation of not honoring the warranty, but the simple fact of not having a dependable mechanism to install.

There are so many more important issues to address it's pretty silly focusing on something so minor. I can think of many, but the R100GS U-Joint/driveline issue would be one. Serious damage (blown up transmissions, swingarms,final drives) and accidents have occurred due to that one!  A bit more important than a faulty gear indicator would be the fuel gauge sensor on a friend's R12GS that fails every year. For a bike that commands premium prices, customers would like to know that the company at least cares enough about them to resolve issues with faulty equipment. Leaving major defects for the customer to resolve doesn't speak well of the manufacturer.

Some things BMW takes care of, but then there are a lot they don't. For instance, in the early 80s they changed the exhaust seats anticipating problems with unleaded fuel. Ensuing valve problems were blamed on the owners and it took three years for a resolution. Quite often they've claimed there was no problem and blamed it on the rider. In the early 70s the odometers failed, a fault that continued until the end of the airhead line in 1995. Motometer, not BMW, manufactured the gauges, but you'd think BMW would have applied some pressure to resolve the issue. All these years later I'm still correcting that one.

Even with six speeds, who really needs a gear indicator? My R11S with a six speed box didn't have one and I never felt the need. True, neutral indicators are nice, but once you know not to depend on it, how difficult is it finding, or knowing you're in neutral? What a weenie.  :rolleyes:

Offline Huzo

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2019, 05:10:09 PM »
It’s the combination of soft cocks like him and bottom feeding lawyer types that make me sick..
I’m reminded of the article I read in an Aussie mag years ago about a bloke who ran off the road after cresting a hill.
He began to turn one way before he could see the road ahead because his GPS told him that’s where the road went...! :violent1:
When actually there was a small kink the other way before the bend.
Then the weak bastard started looking around for someone to blame..!
They are fecal contaminant in the cool clear waters of our motorcycling existence.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 05:12:26 PM by Huzo »

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2019, 05:26:20 PM »
I just hate when people beat around the bush.  I just wish if you guys had something to say, an opinion for instance, that you would just say it.  None of this pansy, false equivalency stuff, "I respect your opinion" and "I'm OK and you're OK" crap. 

Just say what you mean, damn it!   I can't stand mealy mouth equivocators. 

 :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2019, 06:17:18 PM »
This sounds like a venting of frustration to me, it's a proposed law suit, I think calculated to make BMW step up and meet their obligations ie a " feature " of their bike is a gear indicator, the customer pays for it. It doesn't work correctly and BMW can't or won't fix it ( there have been four attempted repairs on the complainants bike, it still doesn't work ).
There are a lot of spurious claims made re danger etc but that's the nature of lawyer BS, gotta make it sound so much worse than it actually is. I ride a bike without a gear indicator so it's a wonder I haven't died in a fiery calamity by now if you believe the legal claims !
I don't always know what gear I'm in but I always know I'm in the correct gear.
I get the frustration  with it not working as advertised though - owner has paid BMW premium prices and BMW can't or won't make it work as advertised. Of course it's no more dangerous than a broken fuel gauge ( if you're lucky enough to have one at all ) but if the manufacturer deems it necessary to have one, and you pay for it, it should bloody well work or be fixed if it stops working within the warranty period.
Anyway it's all a first world problem.

Glenn
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 06:21:23 PM by Pizza Guzzi »

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2019, 08:16:22 PM »
OK, I'll take some flak on this, but that's ok.

I like having a gear indicator. 

I don't use it to see if I've forgotten to shift to 6th while cruising, or if I'm in 1st ready to move out.

I like it when I'm ready to pass a car, and know I'm good for 90 mph if I'm in 3rd.  So, I'll drop to 3rd, and wait for my chance.  Can you survive without this?  Sure.  But if my bike has a gear indicator, this is how I use it.  As a teaching tool that helps me learn the capabilities of the bike in each gear.  Sort of a mental reinforcement tool.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 08:18:53 PM by ohiorider »
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2019, 08:27:32 PM »
No flak, just a counterpoint.

If I want to pass a car I don't necessarily pay a lot of attention to his/her actual speed. I just need to know it's less than I want to go. I probably noticed this because I closed the distance (sometimes faster than others) and maybe even dropped a gear to stay behind them.

So, based on feel/rpm, even without a tach, and not looking at the speedo, I know to go WOT or to drop a gear or two and THEN GO WOT.

But I definitely can't say in my head "car in front of me is going 65, I want to pass, I need to be in ____ gear and I can hold that gear until ______."

Crap I don't think I can do that math instantly in any one of our bikes, never mind all 5. A gear indicator would add absolutely nothing to that decision.

But hey, if you can do that, alright, you're a better man.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 08:40:54 PM by Kev m »
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2019, 08:29:38 PM »
No flak, just a counterpoint.

If I want to pass a car I don't necessarily pay a lot of attention to his/her actual speed. I just need to know it's less than I want to go. I probably noticed this because I closed the distance (sometimes more or less) and maybe even dropped a gear to stay behind them.

So, based on feel/rpm, even without a tach, and not looking at the speedo, I know to go WOT or drop a gear and THEN GO WOT.

But I definitely can't say in my head "car in front of me is going 65, I want to pass, I need to be in ____ gear and I can hold that great until ______."

Crap I don't think I can do that math instantly in any one of our bikes, never mind all 5. A gear indicator would add absolutely nothing to that decision.

But hey, if you can do that, alright, you're a better man.
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Offline Mr Pootle

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2019, 02:48:21 AM »
Would that champertous contracts were still outlawed.

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2019, 06:33:00 AM »
Bitch Moan Whine. <shrug>
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Offline john fish

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2019, 07:05:21 AM »
BunchofMaleWankers.  Not BMW riders but the Guzzi posters above.  Whether or not you want a gear indicator is irrelevant.  (It's also predictable and boring).  Yes, you are Wonderful Bike Gods who pee gasoline and can calibrate a franistan modulator while blindfolded but not everyone is so gifted. 

The fact remains that it exists and is not functioning correctly.  It was installed to help with the proper use and function of the machine.  A failure means that the function of the machine will be impaired.  BMW needs to fix the issue.
 
No, I don't have or feel the need for gear indicators on any of my bikes.  I just feel grumpy this morning.  :) 

Also, sometimes I get tired of old guys (I'm often guilty of this) speaking ill of anything that makes riding easier.  Enter the ABS haters.
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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2019, 07:28:03 AM »
BunchofMaleWankers.  Not BMW riders but the Guzzi posters above.  Whether or not you want a gear indicator is irrelevant.  (It's also predictable and boring).  Yes, you are Wonderful Bike Gods who pee gasoline and can calibrate a franistan modulator while blindfolded but not everyone is so gifted. 

The fact remains that it exists and is not functioning correctly.  It was installed to help with the proper use and function of the machine.  A failure means that the function of the machine will be impaired.  BMW needs to fix the issue.
 
No, I don't have or feel the need for gear indicators on any of my bikes.  I just feel grumpy this morning.  :) 

Also, sometimes I get tired of old guys (I'm often guilty of this) speaking ill of anything that makes riding easier.  Enter the ABS haters.

You're gonna be shocked, but I disagree with almost everything you said. And I love gadgets and I've come to love abs.

I just don't see how this gadget makes riding easier. It's about as useful as the instant mpg calculator. It's an amusement, a piece of data they give you cause they can.

I guess the only thing I agree with is the TECHNICALLY a teeny tiny part of the bike's function has been impaired, but only because it is a silly function they offered in the first place.

It has jack all to do with safety or actually being able to ride the thing. It has nothing to do with mpg or cruise control or stain on the engine.
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Offline Huzo

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Re: BMW gear selector lawsuit? NGC
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2019, 07:51:00 AM »
Guzzi posters above.  Whether or not you want a gear indicator is irrelevant.  (It's also predictable and boring).  Yes, you are Wonderful Bike Gods who pee gasoline and can calibrate a franistan modulator while blindfolded but not everyone is so gifted. 
Also, sometimes I get tired of old guys (I'm often guilty of this) speaking ill of anything that makes riding easier.  Enter the ABS haters.
A couple of things John.
Can you tell me what my level of knowlege is regarding franistan modulators ?
And.
How old am I ?
Yes, force BMW to fix the problem, but don’t give me some smarmy concocted reasoning, generated by a slimy smirking lawyer, that it’s a safety issue. Anyone who holds this opinion or supports someone who does, would be better off on a scooter with CVT and pink shoes..(since you’re into generalisations of human character).
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 07:59:10 AM by Huzo »

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