Author Topic: B17 crash at Bradley Field, Connecticut (Read 6077 times)

Neil · « **on:** October 02, 2019, 04:39:03 PM »

Sad news , unfortunately. The Collings Foundation B17 Flying Fortress , Nine-O-Nine , crashed at Bradley Field , north of Hartford, CT. Reports say 7 of the 13 aboard died in the crash. It happened around 10 this morning. Keep all those aboard in your thoughts and prayers. The plane was one of a very few of that model still flying.

Gliderjohn · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2019, 09:25:48 PM »

I think their is only around 12 currently flying w/o looking it up. Just a few years ago one was lost after making a successful muddy field landing due to an onboard fire. All got off okay but the plane burned totally up because no fire trucks could get across the mud.
Took a ride on the "Texas Raider" as few years ago. An awesome experience, but I would never wanted to be onboard during an actual mission. Those crews had big ones.

GliderJohn

bad Chad · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2019, 10:03:55 PM »

Actually I believe the one that went down in Oswego IL was a B-29.

Gliderjohn · « **Reply #3 on:** October 02, 2019, 10:48:06 PM »

Nope, was a B-17:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2011-06-14-ct-met-wwii-plane-crash-0615-2-20110614-story.html
Here is the B-29 one you are thinking of.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-05-24-mn-5487-story.html
GliderJohn

s1120 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2019, 06:08:19 AM »

I heard that yesterday afternoon, and at that time early reports said they thought all survived.. sorry to hear that was wrong. :(

bobrebos · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2019, 06:14:19 AM »

Sad news.

Noguzznoglory · « **Reply #6 on:** October 03, 2019, 08:35:41 AM »

I’m sure more details will come out but if any of the aviation experts will would like to opine.......

Pilot only reported #4 engine trouble and plane climbed only 800 ft. Unloaded, they should have been able to fly on three engines. Glad to be corrected
Thoughts?

Rough Edge racing · « **Reply #7 on:** October 03, 2019, 09:03:16 AM »

Quote from: Noguzznoglory on October 03, 2019, 08:35:41 AM

I’m sure more details will come out but if any of the aviation experts will would like to opine.......

Pilot only reported #4 engine trouble and plane climbed only 800 ft. Unloaded, they should have been able to fly on three engines. Glad to be corrected
Thoughts?

Should have..but...I'm sure the pilots on this forum can say that a multi engine plane with one dead engine on take off is not always easy to deal with..In an emergency one wrong reaction may set up an unavoidable crash...

bobbyfromnc · « **Reply #8 on:** October 03, 2019, 09:24:51 AM »

Friends I subscribe to this YouTube user, here's his take on this accident thus far. Very Knowledgeable man...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpv-xxYQ8-o

cloudbase · « **Reply #9 on:** October 03, 2019, 10:38:10 AM »

There's an old saying about multi-engine piston aircraft. If you lose an engine, the remaining engine(s) will take you to the site of the crash.

TOMB · « **Reply #10 on:** October 03, 2019, 11:03:38 AM »

First , the pilot did a remarkable job of trying to do what he needed to do to get control of a bad situation. To and extent he succeeded as there were survivors ,

Condolences to all families involved.

This was on a local radio station here in Connecticut.
A woman called in to the station and after introducing herself asked this guestion,
When did the plane last fly?
Was it refueled?

Her take , Av. gas doesn't leave heavy smoke trails ,
JET fuel usually does.
Pilot indicated that the plane had no power (Jet fuel?)
I'm just repeating what was being discussed put the pilimanry reports in a couple of weeks.
At this airport how much Av gas is pumped daily weekly monthly?
Im guessing not much as this is mostly commercial planes, and Nat Guard.
Very small general aviation. Although there is an excellant museum at the north west end of the airport.
( New england air museum).
I go there often so im a ittle familiar with the area.
Any input is welcome

TOMB

Moparnut72 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 03, 2019, 11:12:47 AM »

I also wondered about all the black smoke. After I retired from government service I worked in a shop that overhauled/restored radial aircraft engines. The owner was a character but a really sharp guy. He said that twin engine planes were twice as dangerous as single engined ones. You had twice the chances of engine failure. However he said the old DC3 was the only plane that could take off on one engine.
kk

steven c · « **Reply #12 on:** October 03, 2019, 11:15:28 AM »

I live a few miles from Bradley and My brother and I went into this plane when it was at New London Gorton airport a couple of weeks back. Saw it fly in and we got to talk to some of the crew. Very nice people who really loved what they where doing. My heart goes out to them and there families.
We flew in the Liberty Bell B17 about 12 years ago it was really something to get a feel for what my dad did but only in a B24's over the Pacific. A couple of years back the Liberty Bell had a burned on the ground after an emergency landing.

Roebling3 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 03, 2019, 12:04:26 PM »

Bob Collings and I shared the same physician. The collected stories were enlightening. Colling's muse` in Stow, MA is great to visit especially the one or two times a year he opens to the public. His grass field is near Minuteman airport, also in Stow. (excellent restaurant. btw: Nancy's Airfield Rest.). I lived nearby.

A down wind landing? With the aircraft barely straight and level? And losing power. An uncontrollable turn so quickly to port. Beside the fuel issue the landing gear on the same side may have been compromised.

Guzzi content: Riding locally many years ago I caught up to a V50. Flagged him down. Bought him lunch. He was an out of work, licensed aircraft mechanic. We rode to Collings' and I introduced him. He spent at least one summer as crew.
I cannot recall his name - at the moment. R3~

Mike Harper · « **Reply #14 on:** October 03, 2019, 12:07:25 PM »

I agree with the Jet fuel theory. Obviously the pilot had enough power to commit to a take off roll and then lost power. This is not the first time this has happened, A C-47 Cargo plane was lost at St Louis airport several years back. Pilot tried to turn back but crashed on the shoulder of I 70.

Sad deal but the fuel truck driver and the pilot both screwed up, One for putting in the wrong fuel and the pilot for not catching it on the pre-flight.

Gliderjohn · « **Reply #15 on:** October 03, 2019, 01:25:48 PM »

I don't know how much "clean" fuel would have been available before the mixed fuel was drawn in if that is what happened. On my ride we spent about 10 minutes taxing plus engine run ups before takeoff so would have used not an insignificant amount of fuel. Would have think a fuel problem would have shown up then or during the take off roll.
I may be wrong but I thought the pilot reported an engine on fire and stated he wanted to land to get it put out.
GliderJohn

knockerjoe · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2019, 02:06:15 PM »

Although I am not a pilot (aircraft mechanic) I do know that in that situation you have to a lot
of emergency procedures to accomplish in a matter of seconds to recover from a engine failure.
The first thing is to feather the prop on the inop engine to avoid the drag on the one engine wing.
Throttles then would have to even out to compensate for the yaw the aircraft on the inop engine side.
That’s the first things but then there’s engine fire procedures on top of that. Failure to do these procedures
fast and expedient will easily cause a crash. Other questions is how experienced was the flight crew?
How many hours on this type aircraft? What was the condition of this 70 plus year old aircraft?
I have been at many of these air shows that have offered rides on B-17s and B-25s. If I remember correctly
it was about $500 for a 20 minute ride and you had to sign a waiver.
My heart goes out to the people lost.

Gliderjohn · « **Reply #17 on:** October 03, 2019, 02:14:22 PM »

My ride was about 2.5 years ago. Think I paid $435 (60% considered a taxable donation) for about 30 minutes in the air and an additional 15 or so taxing, running engines up, etc. Everyone seemed very professional in every way and where one could see the plane appeared very well maintained. Once the engines were running one crew member spent the majority of his time just observing the engines. But things happen with old and new mechanical things.
GliderJohn

Two Checks · « **Reply #18 on:** October 03, 2019, 03:25:21 PM »

Quote from: Mike Harper on Today at 12:07:25 PM

I agree with the Jet fuel theory. Obviously the pilot had enough power to commit to a take off roll and then lost power. This is not the first time this has happened, A C-47 Cargo plane was lost at St Louis airport several years back. Pilot tried to turn back but crashed on the shoulder of I 70.

Sad deal but the fuel truck driver and the pilot both screwed up, One for putting in the wrong fuel and the pilot for not catching it on the pre-flight.

I drove past the crash site that night. One wing was hanging out over the highway.

The pilot made three previous attempts to take off and aborted. Ran up the engines the fourth time and all was well. This time they ran it completely out of gas after take off. Ill not forget the big maple leaf on the tail (Air Canada).

mondtster · « **Reply #19 on:** October 03, 2019, 03:59:14 PM »

Misfueling was my first thought on this accident too. As long as the other three engines were making power I would have expected minimal difficulty returning to base and having a successful landing, but the reports I've seen suggest that they didn't have the ability to maintain altitude.

One of the airplanes I fly and maintain has both piston and turbine powered variants. I fly the piston version and misfueling by unknowing line guys is probably my biggest fear with that plane. If I don't fuel it myself I usually try to make sure I'm present for fueling but that doesn't always happen and it can be deadly if someone makes a simple mistake.

My heart goes out to the people on board and their families.

Rough Edge racing · « **Reply #20 on:** October 03, 2019, 04:42:45 PM »

I have some experience with peole who accidently fueled a gas engine with Diesel, both carb and injected engines.Jet fuel is more less a lighter grade of Diesel and incompatable to fuel a spark ignition engine?. The truck engines ran very poorly ,misfiring and pinging and it happened almost instantly upon start up with the wrong fuel....I believe a B-17 taking off at a light weight may consume over 100 gallons per hour per engine..So warm up and taxing would use 10's of gallons of fuel and the problem should have showed up before take off unless very little jet fuel was added. And prior to take off the engines are run up against the brakes to hold the aircraft for a power checkout...And if the pilot made three failed atempts at take off you might think he would abort the flight and have the engines checked out?
To me, none of this adds up an experienced pilot in a valuable historic aircraft with people on board.....

Gliderjohn · « **Reply #21 on:** October 03, 2019, 05:43:32 PM »

From RoughEdgeRacing:

Quote

To me, none of this adds up an experienced pilot in a valuable historic aircraft with people on board.....

Just heard on the evening CBS news that the left seat pilot had the most B-17 hours of anyone in the USA.
GliderJohn

mondtster · « **Reply #22 on:** October 03, 2019, 06:19:22 PM »

Quote from: Rough Edge racing on October 03, 2019, 04:42:45 PM

I have some experience with peole who accidently fueled a gas engine with Diesel, both carb and injected engines.Jet fuel is more less a lighter grade of Diesel and incompatable to fuel a spark ignition engine?. The truck engines ran very poorly ,misfiring and pinging and it happened almost instantly upon start up with the wrong fuel....I believe a B-17 taking off at a light weight may consume over 100 gallons per hour per engine..So warm up and taxing would use 10's of gallons of fuel and the problem should have showed up before take off unless very little jet fuel was added. And prior to take off the engines are run up against the brakes to hold the aircraft for a power checkout...And if the pilot made three failed atempts at take off you might think he would abort the flight and have the engines checked out?
To me, none of this adds up an experienced pilot in a valuable historic aircraft with people on board.....

Unfortunately, misfueling accidents are more common than they should be. And when they happen, they happen similar to what happened with this B-17. The takeoff goes ok then as the contaminated fuel reaches the engine(s) it goes south.

Here's a good example of an accident due to misfueling: https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150417X20434&key=1

There was another very similar 421 accident by my parent's house in which fuel contamination was suspected but the NTSB never determined the true cause.

Chuck in Indiana · « **Reply #23 on:** October 03, 2019, 07:12:13 PM »

Quote

To me, none of this adds up an experienced pilot in a valuable historic aircraft with people on board.....

I know two people that fly these. Both are retired airline captains (big deal, they normally spend 20000 hours playing angry birds on their Ipad)

but both are *really* good sticks, and have flown antiques all their lives.
The Kid was talking to one of them today.. he's actually flown that airplane. He said it will fly on two. If you lose both on one wing, it's a little more of a challenge, but still doable. They train for it. Losing one is no big deal.
Ken said he was in the cockpit one day doing pre flight stuff, and saw the fuel truck pumping fuel in. It was jet fuel. (!) Needless to say, he had all the tanks drained. Just the same, he thinks the pilot made the wrong decision in trying to get back to the runway he was using instead of another. It's really hard to say when you aren't sitting in the left seat, though..

Quote

However he said the old DC3 was the only plane that could take off on one engine.

He was mistaken.. <shrug>

Lannis · « **Reply #24 on:** October 03, 2019, 07:13:36 PM »

Quote from: mondtster on October 03, 2019, 06:19:22 PM

Here's a good example of an accident due to misfueling: https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150417X20434&key=1

There was another very similar 421 accident by my parent's house in which fuel contamination was suspected but the NTSB never determined the true cause.

Who outside the world of aviation would believe that Jet A fuel nozzles and 110 AvGas nozzles both fit the same tank? I mean, for cars, the leaded/unleaded pumps were different 30 years ago, and one couldn't use the other. Why leave this massively accident-prone situation in place for aircraft, where the consequences of failure are a little worse that coasting to the shoulder, or contaminating a catalytic converter ... ?

Lannis

Gliderjohn · « **Reply #25 on:** October 03, 2019, 08:24:19 PM »

From Chuck In Indiana:

Quote

The Kid was talking to one of them today.. he's actually flown that airplane. He said it will fly on two. If you lose both on one wing, it's a little more of a challenge, but still doable. They train for it. Losing one is no big deal.

Kind of what I was thinking from what I have gathered over the years reading a number of books on B-17 related stuff. it will be interesting (and sad) to read the final investigation report.
GliderJohn

kirby1923 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2019, 08:59:06 PM »

Many B17s came back to base on two w/much battle damage(some on one side) and I heard of one that made a successful crossing of the English channel on one...either you lucky or not.They walked away. (Crash landing off field)

We train on single engine approaches in the MD 11 and DC10, required for recurrent check in the simulator, they have to be successful to pass.

mondtster · « **Reply #27 on:** October 03, 2019, 09:00:16 PM »

Quote from: Lannis on October 03, 2019, 07:13:36 PM

Who outside the world of aviation would believe that Jet A fuel nozzles and 110 AvGas nozzles both fit the same tank? I mean, for cars, the leaded/unleaded pumps were different 30 years ago, and one couldn't use the other. Why leave this massively accident-prone situation in place for aircraft, where the consequences of failure are a little worse that coasting to the shoulder, or contaminating a catalytic converter ... ?

Lannis

The report I linked suggested that the duckbill fueling nozzle was not in place on the jet hose. The nozzle is designed to do exactly what you describe; to discourage misfueling by making it harder or impossible to insert the nozzle in the filler neck. I'd guess there was a reason the proper nozzle wasn't on that hose. It possibly could have had to do with having a customer with an airplane that had a turbine conversion on it or because they previously dispensed fuel into something other than an aircraft. In this case not having the right nozzle caused a serious accident.

There were also humans involved and no matter how smart we think we are, we have a great ability to screw things up. Line guys at airports generally don't get paid the greatest either, so oftentimes you may not be working with the sharpest individuals. Also, the Cessna 421 is piston powered while the 425 is turbine. To the casual observer the planes look the same. If people don't pay attention a misfueling event would be real easy.

TOMB · « **Reply #28 on:** October 03, 2019, 09:02:01 PM »

The B17 that crashed in Connecticut this week.

From a earlier time, Jay Leno interviews people that flew in the crashed B17.
Includes a tour of the inside of the plane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjRQXjcY6u0

TOMB

TOMB · « **Reply #29 on:** October 03, 2019, 09:16:50 PM »

As a side note
The NTSB had a news conference today and the lead person indicated that they checks the fuel that was in the remaining tanks and it was 100 Oct. and correct for those engines.

So no Jet fuel.

So Im throwing this out to see what sticks.

I don't know if the B17 has Cross feeds from the gas tanks , but if so its possible that the fuel feeds couldn't maintain proper flow at takeoff settings.

Comments?

TOMB

News:

Author Topic: B17 crash at Bradley Field, Connecticut (Read 6077 times)

bobrebos

Rough Edge racing

Rough Edge racing