Author Topic: cranking issue number two  (Read 529 times)

Online Chuck in Indiana

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cranking issue number two
« on: October 10, 2019, 09:31:35 AM »
AeroLario 750cc engine.
Over the last 6 months or so, it's becoming hard to crank. The solenoid goes home immediately, but the starter sometimes goes as long as a half second before it cranks the engine. I'm aware of "one of the things to do" with the old small blocks is to remove, clean, inspect and lube the advance mechanism once a year.
I thought maybe the advance was sticking, not coming back to full retard. It *acts* like an engine with too much initial advance.
So, I cleaned and lubed the advance mechanism, and set the timing.
same same.
Wondered about the battery cables, but they appear to my untrained eye to be probably 4 gauge. (roughly .200") Looking that up on the web says they should be fine.
With my limited electrical knowledge, I'm out of "Airspeed, Altitude, and Ideas."  :smiley:
What am I missing?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
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79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2019, 09:37:25 AM »
Take off the plug wires and try, to see if there is a 'backfire' against the starter cranking.
If not, it is likely in the starter.

Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2019, 09:48:52 AM »
Take off the plug wires and try, to see if there is a 'backfire' against the starter cranking.
If not, it is likely in the starter.

Well, duh. Why didn't I think of that?   :smiley:  It cranks the same, so that takes ignition out of the loop. Do you mean that I might have to (cough cough) spend some money?  :grin: Or is it fixable?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2019, 10:46:15 AM »
Well, duh. Why didn't I think of that?   :smiley:  It cranks the same, so that takes ignition out of the loop. Do you mean that I might have to (cough cough) spend some money?  :grin: Or is it fixable?

Spend money?  :violent1:

What kind of talk is that?


 :boozing:
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2019, 10:49:52 AM »
Spend money?  :violent1:

What kind of talk is that?


 :boozing:

Good point. I'll take it apart and see if I can find anything wrong.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Online unclepete

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 11:37:41 AM »
What you described is how my R80 acted a few times before the gel battery finally quit .
Push starter button , solenoid engages right quick , then turns real slow , speeds up cranking , and starts . Reminded me of how some high compression hot rod cars would start on a hot summer day .
The battery checked out with my multimeter ; about 12.6 or above , but I never load tested it .
It did that for three or four rides , then it started the drrrrt from the solenoid , while still hot from a long ride .
Replaced the battery , and it's been good since .

Offline pehayes

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 06:11:21 PM »
Over the last 6 months or so, it's becoming hard to crank. The solenoid goes home immediately, but the starter sometimes goes as long as a half second before it cranks the engine.

When it finally does crank, are you happy with the cranking speed?  Sound normal?

Here is a careful question.  When you hit the button you can hear the solenoid go home.  Does the starter seem to crank instantly but very poorly?

Or,

Does nothing happen for that lag time and then the starter turns.

If it is the former symptom, then yes I would concur it is like an ignition not returning to idle advance.

However, if it is the latter, I would suspect a corrosive effect inside the solenoid at its rear.

The solenoid does two functions.  First is a linear function to thrust the starter pinion forward to engage the ring gear.  No spinning allowed!  Second, once the solenoid reaches full thrust home, it bridges two massive contacts in the rear which now feed battery power directly to the starter windings to spin it up.  It is a two step process.

Sounds like your second step is failing.  You can replace the solenoid for clean internal contacts.  You're cheap, you can also disassemble to clean and burnish all contacts like new.  See Greg Benders site for visual instructions to rebuild a solenoid.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 06:22:18 PM »
Thanks, Patrick.. I've been busy and haven't gotten back to this.
Quote
Here is a careful question.  When you hit the button you can hear the solenoid go home.  Does the starter seem to crank instantly but very poorly?
Yes.
It takes a (small) bit of time, cranks slowly for a revolution or so, then starts.
Quote
If it is the former symptom, then yes I would concur it is like an ignition not returning to idle advance.
That's what I thought, but Wayne's taking the plug leads off and trying it rules that out. It's still the same with no ignition.

Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2019, 06:29:44 AM »
Double check the main battery ground is connected and the starting current is not getting back to the battery by soma alternate route.
I know of a couple of VIIs where the ground had come disconnecter and the circuit was completed by the small black wire from the Voltage regulator, this became red hot and fused to other wires in the loom.
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2019, 06:56:30 AM »
Double check the main battery ground is connected and the starting current is not getting back to the battery by soma alternate route.
I know of a couple of VIIs where the ground had come disconnecter and the circuit was completed by the small black wire from the Voltage regulator, this became red hot and fused to other wires in the loom.

Thanks, but there's only one ground wire on this bad boy.  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline gliderjohn

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 07:00:53 AM »
From Chuck"
Quote
I'm out of "Airspeed, Altitude, and Ideas."  :smiley:
What am I missing?
A parachute?
GliderJohn
John Peters
Walton, KS

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 07:17:28 AM »
From Chuck"A parachute?
GliderJohn

Too low..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Online John A

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2019, 10:58:06 AM »
Ball of flames checklist?
John
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2019, 04:15:42 PM »
Ok, resolution to this thread..
A new Valeo clone for 60 some bucks shipped free from Amazon.  :rolleyes: Cheaper than I could buy the parts to overhaul the Bosch. Came with a test sheet..

A little smaller than the Bosch, spins the engine a little faster, and does it instantly.
As much as I hate to admit it, it appears to be very well manufactured.

I *do* lose the kool stick bird solenoid cover, but the AeroLario is a mutt, anyway.  :grin:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline steamdriven NZ

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2019, 06:15:20 PM »
I have seen two instances where worn bushes in the rotating assembly have allowed the rotor to contact the stator and use a bunch of the juice intended for the starting......
Once on a high compression drag motor and once on a CX400 Honda. I rebushed the Honda one for the owner and it transformed it.
When you spend more time spannering than using, you have reached toy saturation.....

'84 750 Monza (The Monzada)

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2019, 10:05:51 PM »
I have seen two instances where worn bushes in the rotating assembly have allowed the rotor to contact the stator and use a bunch of the juice intended for the starting......
Once on a high compression drag motor and once on a CX400 Honda. I rebushed the Honda one for the owner and it transformed it.

I should have remembered that. It's pretty obvious because the armature gets polished. It used to be quite common with the old Lucas starters.
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2019, 06:33:58 AM »
Well, *now* you tell me after I spent 60 some bucks. <snapping suspenders>  :smiley: I *have* bearing stock, and could have done that for free. I'll put a tag on it saying "needs rebushed."
Thanks..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2019, 11:35:44 PM »
Well, *now* you tell me after I spent 60 some bucks. <snapping suspenders>  :smiley: I *have* bearing stock, and could have done that for free. I'll put a tag on it saying "needs rebushed."
Thanks..
I have been told you can't machine those sintered bushes. We used to lube them by filling with oil then squeezing with thumb and forefinger so the oil penetrates the pores.
It would be interesting to see if yours shows sign of rubbing.
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: cranking issue number two
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2019, 07:27:56 AM »
Well, I've already fixed it for 60 some bucks, and don't care enough to open up one of those nasty things to find out.  :smiley: It's already in my "good junk" pile with a "needs bushed" tag on it. The next guy can worry about it.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.' - Bertrand Russell

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