Adjusting Ducati Desmodromic Valves

[Motormike]

If you own an older Ducati, or want to own an older Ducati and plan to do your own work, I strongly recommend L.T. Synder's Ducati maintenance books: http://desmotimes.com/index.html

[Idontwantapickle]

Well, I turned him over to check sex, and the toad started cursing me in Latin.   Sounded male.   I decided not to press the issue

A nice Latin name then? Valerio! It was brave enough to jump on your porch.

[wirespokes]

Swearing at you in a Latin tongue??? I'm thinking you guessed all WRONG! I'll bet she's a Gina, or Sophia, or Brigitte.

[JohninVT]

It costs $110 for the rental and requires a $500 deposit.  It’s a 5-6 hour job to tear everything apart, check & adjust the valves, change the belts and reassemble.  That’s on a simple Scrambler.  I’ll happily pay $600 to have a dealer do it while it’s under warranty.  After the first time or two they usually settle in and you just end up swapping the belts every two years or 15,000 miles. 

By the way, how about some pictures of your 900SS? 

[Kev m]

After the first time or two they usually settle in and you just end up swapping the belts every two years or 15,000 miles. 

I know yours will see many more miles in much shorter a time, and probably higher rpm too. But we go a solid 5 years on the belts. I thought that was the current recommendation, though I know it wasn't the OEM rec at the time ours was produced. That said GATES says (about essentially the same belts in other applications) that they should be good for 10 years and our old dealer service manager who was a bit of a Ducati wizard even suggested the same 5 years interval we were using without prompting. So maybe something to consider - perhaps depending on your mileage you might inch that interval up as time goes by.

I haven't taken glamour shots in a while, but here's ours after yesterday's lunch ride (67F and sunny). Likely to be the last of the season, so topped up, cleaned up and ready to be put back away.

[JohninVT]

I know yours will see many more miles in much shorter a time, and probably higher rpm too. But we go a solid 5 years on the belts. I thought that was the current recommendation, though I know it wasn't the OEM rec at the time ours was produced. That said GATES says (about essentially the same belts in other applications) that they should be good for 10 years and our old dealer service manager who was a bit of a Ducati wizard even suggested the same 5 years interval we were using without prompting. So maybe something to consider - perhaps depending on your mileage you might inch that interval up as time goes by.

I haven't taken glamour shots in a while, but here's ours after yesterday's lunch ride (67F and sunny). Likely to be the last of the season, so topped up, cleaned up and ready to be put back away.

The Scrambler service schedule says 15k on the belts and they've extended the time to 5 years.  I was wrong.  I thought they were due at the first service(7,500 miles) with the valve check/adjust.  There's actually some confusion regarding the service schedules.  Ducati UK is saying all bikes are now 15k miles between desmo service with the exception of a couple models that are actually 18,000.  That doesn't match the owner's manuals for some bikes. 

   

[Kev m]

The Scrambler service schedule says 15k on the belts and they've extended the time to 5 years.  I was wrong.  I thought they were due at the first service(7,500 miles) with the valve check/adjust.  There's actually some confusion regarding the service schedules.  Ducati UK is saying all bikes are now 15k miles between desmo service with the exception of a couple models that are actually 18,000.  That doesn't match the owner's manuals for some bikes. 

   

I think that might go to show that it's a fluid concept, and perhaps the old intervals were somewhat conservative.

Our Owner's Manual says every 7.5k on valves, but I've seen what I think was a dealer bulletin that gives maintenance service data for 08-13 models and lists the 7.5k models as valves at the first 7.5k and THEN switching to 15k intervals (so second adjustment at 22.5K, third at 37.5k).

It also shows that other models are 15k, 30k, 45k, etc.

I do hear from many owners that after the first one or two checks it is very rare for something to be out.

[LowRyter]

It costs $110 for the rental and requires a $500 deposit.  It’s a 5-6 hour job to tear everything apart, check & adjust the valves, change the belts and reassemble.  That’s on a simple Scrambler.  I’ll happily pay $600 to have a dealer do it while it’s under warranty.  After the first time or two they usually settle in and you just end up swapping the belts every two years or 15,000 miles. 

By the way, how about some pictures of your 900SS?

I think the local guy Don said it was 4.5 hour job to do my SS (DOHC 4v water cooled) = $600.  I doubt that includes removing the tupperware which is a good hour more, plus adjusting valves + completing the remaining work list   This is due every 18k miles which is 2 years for me.  I'd like to watch him do it and try it with him before I tackled it myself (if ever).

OTOH, most of the new bikes have valve shim adjustments that require cam removal, so I am not sure there's a big difference in maintenance costs.

But I am not going to the dealer that charged me a small fortune after my warranty claim was denied for busted bolts on the pannier rack mount.

[JohninVT]

I was curious so I emailed Seacoast this morning.  It’s $420-480 for a desmo adjustment, including shim(s).  I didn’t ask about belts.  The Scrambler doesn’t have any Tupperware but the tank, air box and part of the exhaust need to be removed.  If I removed that stuff, I imagine the cost would drop to $3-350.  That’s about 4 cents a mile. 

[Motormike]

Just run em' till a belt snaps! Note the mileage, and knock off 10% for the next time.  What's the problem? (Oh, and don't forget to replace the piston and valves on the one that snapped) 

[Rusnak_322]

I don't know what "special tools" anyone would be talking about.  Unless you consider a set of feeler gages and a micrometer "special."   No one has yet mentioned one of the things that makes the ST4 series of bikes a real maintenance headache:  Rocker arm flaking.  All the ST series (and some 749/999 bikes) are prone to having the hard chrome surface treatment on the rocker arms flake off.  So an owner really needs to pull the cams out and inspect the rocker arms for wear every other valve inspection, at a minimum.  Gee, a surface hardness problem that leads to metal flaking that can destroy the engine...that sounds awfully familiar. Who says there's no Guzzi content in this thread?

these tools?

https://emsduc.com/product-category/tools/

[LowRyter]

these tools?

https://emsduc.com/product-category/tools/

I didn't see any references to the newer bikes.  The site I listed above has most of the bikes covered.

[Knuckle Dragger]

What’s a good name for a toad?  A big fat one jumped onto my porch this weekend and he apparently plans to stay long term.

Touchwood, of course!  (From about 2.05)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr0zG6Wtyyw&frags=pl%2Cwn

[Muzz]

these tools?

https://emsduc.com/product-category/tools/

I'll stick to my Heron head Breva, thanks anyway.

[SmithSwede]

Not to be mean.   But Muzz.   Check out the location of the dry clutch on these Ducatis.

It’s all right there.   No screw of doom. 

 

[Dukedesmo]

Fit MBP retainers instead of the wire collets and you'll rarely need to change a shim.


Get the (Desmoquattro) rockers resurfaced by Newman cams (www.newman-cams.com) and you'll put the flaky rockers to bed for good...   

[Rough Edge racing]

Not to be mean.   But Muzz.   Check out the location of the dry clutch on these Ducatis.

It’s all right there.   No screw of doom. 

 

Yes, and you can hear it working, lol...

[Motormike]

Fit MBP retainers instead of the wire collets and you'll rarely need to change a shim.


Get the (Desmoquattro) rockers resurfaced by Newman cams (www.newman-cams.com) and you'll put the flaky rockers to bed for good...   

All good advice and good stuff.  But none of it is exactly cheap.

[guzzista]

To my knowledge the flaking issue was mostly pre Testa Stretta motors. That would be  748, 916, 996 and ST4. By the time the 749/998/999
was on the market the issue had been solved ( ex: My 998 never had such problems  whereas 748 and 996 friends  did ) . 4valve motors were fiddly (at least in my experience) due to working tight spaces  As Charlie mentioned the  Bevel motors were time consuming because the upper rocker pins had to be removed to access the lower rocker for service. My current  DS  1000 motor shows no tight or loose valves at 13.5 k miles and may need another look see at 20k? YMMV

[Tusayan]

Bevel motors were time consuming because the upper rocker pins had to be removed to access the lower rocker for service.

Not just bevels, all of them including Pantahs up to IIRC some time in the late 80s or early 90s.  Rocker pin removal is actually not a big deal and bevels in particular are simple to service because the access is good.

In my mind 2V desmo valve adjustment is a completely level of effort and a different discussion versus the same job on Desmoquattro engines.  I have both, and valve adjustment on the 2V engines is simpler than many other non-desmo motorcycle engines.  Doing the valves goes fairly quickly depending on bodywork etc. for the particular model and is almost therapeutic.  Its not frustrating at all. 

Desmoquattro engines are a big project to service, even when the bodywork flies off like on a 916 etc.  The ST4 is hardest of mine, its a patience trying big job and the only reason I have an ST4 is because when assembled its a really crisp, finely tuned thoroughbred feeling bike that can also carry two people with hard bags.  I love mine for that reason and there's nothing else exactly like it for me.     

[jas67]

The Scrambler service schedule says 15k on the belts and they've extended the time to 5 years.  I was wrong.  I thought they were due at the first service(7,500 miles) with the valve check/adjust.  There's actually some confusion regarding the service schedules.  Ducati UK is saying all bikes are now 15k miles between desmo service with the exception of a couple models that are actually 18,000.  That doesn't match the owner's manuals for some bikes. 

   

The valve service interval on the late model two-valve air-cooled motors (Monster 696,796,1100,797, and scramblers) is 7,500 miles.    The late model Testastretta (four valve, water cooled) motors is 15,000, or 18,000 depending on year.  I'm not sure when the interval went to 15,000, but, the 848 specifies 15,000, and IIRC, the Panigales are 18,000.    IIRC, the 749/999 are 7,500.

[Muzz]

Not to be mean.   But Muzz.   Check out the location of the dry clutch on these Ducatis.

It’s all right there.   No screw of doom. 

 

Ouch. Low blow there Prescott.  

I am hoping that the 2nd hand box will last longer than 12,500 miles per 5th gear.

[davedel44]

What’s a good name for a toad?  A big fat one jumped onto my porch this weekend and he apparently plans to stay long term.

Freddy

Dave
Galveston

[SmithSwede]

Ouch. Low blow there Prescott.  

I am hoping that the 2nd hand box will last longer than 12,500 miles per 5th gear.

So Muzz.  How is your gear box working out so far?  I’m really hoping your first one was just bad for some reason and the second one runs 100,000 miles without complaint. 

[Dukedesmo]

Quote from: guzzista on November 14, 2019, 11:56:44 PM

4valve motors were fiddly (at least in my experience) due to working tight spaces 

___________________ ___________________ _______________

Especially 916 rear cylinder exhaust....     

[jpv7]

Fit MBP retainers instead of the wire collets and you'll rarely need to change a shim.


Get the (Desmoquattro) rockers resurfaced by Newman cams (www.newman-cams.com) and you'll put the flaky rockers to bed for good...   

My experience is to just put the wire collets in the same way they came out (you can tell from from the marks on them) and no need for the MBPs.  I also had a stack of perfectly good used belts when I sold the bike...lol

[Muzz]

So Muzz.  How is your gear box working out so far?  I’m really hoping your first one was just bad for some reason and the second one runs 100,000 miles without complaint.

So far so good.  Overall, a wee bit noisier than mine was before 5th would dissolve along with the shaft.  It has not got any worse and 5th is quiet. 3rd and 4th slightly whiney, along with the slight whine from the transfer gears that mine never had.  About to do fluid changes after the rally so will see if there is any metalflake in the oil then.  Will have done about 3000 miles on it by then.

And now, back to hearing how Ducati owners just LUUUURRVE doing those valve clearances!

[Muzz]

Freddy

Dave
Galveston

or Phred for short.

[Motormike]

My experience is to just put the wire collets in the same way they came out (you can tell from from the marks on them) and no need for the MBPs.  I also had a stack of perfectly good used belts when I sold the bike...lol

You must have eyes like Superman!  I always just shook my head at the tech manual saying put the collets in the way they came out: looking at something the size of a fingernail clipping and trying to tell which side is the top or bottom.  I never could tell even with a 6 inch magnifying glass. I always dropped them anyway.  Worse than looking for a dropped contact lens.  Always kept a half-dozen or so spares in my shim box.  Wouldn't even waste my time looking for a dropped one...just grab a new one and keep going.  Hence my earlier comment about Ducati mechanics ending up in a rubber room somewhere. 

[SmithSwede]

You must have eyes like Superman!  I always just shook my head at the tech manual saying put the collets in the way they came out: looking at something the size of a fingernail clipping and trying to tell which side is the top or bottom.  I never could tell even with a 6 inch magnifying glass. I always dropped them anyway.  Worse than looking for a dropped contact lens.  Always kept a half-dozen or so spares in my shim box.  Wouldn't even waste my time looking for a dropped one...just grab a new one and keep going.  Hence my earlier comment about Ducati mechanics ending up in a rubber room somewhere.

I’ve gotten into the habit of keeping a bottle of yellow finger nail polish with my motorcycle tools.  If I have the slightest doubt about how a part is oriented, or which end goes where, I paint up both surfaces with the fingernail polish before I take stuff apart. 

I’d do the same for those 1/2 ring keepers.  Get some paint on one end, let it dry, drop the keepers, and then know how to restore the prior orientation.   

I think the shiny side is the face that points downwards, toward the ground or crankshaft.   Don’t quote me on that.