1000 SP curious issue

[Sazerac]

So, I got a new Dyna installed on my SP a few days ago and it’s starting running better than it ever has until last night. I went to put the key in and when I turned to the first position none of the lights came on. I took the key out and tried again and momentarily saw the lights but then they went off. I can turn the key to the second position and get the parking lights to turn on, but that’s it. I checked the battery and it was at 11 volts. I figured that would have been enough to crank it, but since the starter button won’t even respond I’m stumped as to where I should start.

I checked all the connections and fuses I could see in a dark parking lot and looked for burnimg or corrosion but found nothing. I was going to start with looking at the keyed ignition block to see if there was something amiss there below the dash. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[fotoguzzi]

11 volts is not even close to a good battery, it should read at least 12.5
Report back after you have it fully charged.

[Sazerac]

Fotoguzzi,

Thanks for the quick response! It’s in a parking lot so I can’t really plug it in to charge. I guess I could pull the battery and then bring it back, but I was planning on picking it up later today with a friend’s truck.

[guzzisteve]

Take jumper cables w/you. Make sure car is off w/you jump it, make sure your lights are also off. Ign switches do go bad also. Good luck.

[chuck peterson]

I'd go get a good charged battery..Try a good sized tractor battery from wallyworld or autozoned...just make sure the position and posts fit your cables...for a bottom dollar solution this battery becomes your 12.6-13volt power supply in the garage, that can slip into the SP. each of six plates in a 12 volt battery carries 2.2 volts, so 12.6-12.8-13.2 resting is a charged battery, but doesn't measure amps. When I hit a start button it drops quickly to 9-10 volts, then once started comes back to 12 plus. As Rpms rise voltages does too. Without a headlight 14.5-14.6 volts is the max you want to allow going to the battery to keep it charged.

Sounds like one of two typical problems...undercha rged underused battery that needs a good charge or...the battery really has lost its ability to deliver juice to the starter and needs to be replaced

As suggested, you might have some ignition switch issue mixed in there, too

Behind that though, you might measure if your charging system is working while running. This might be a reason the battery is down...or not.

The story I heard one year was a guy with a lousy charging system making his way home by stopping at Walmarts and replacing the now worn down battery....across several state lines if I remember..rinse and repeat

[Chuck in Indiana]

you might measure if your charging system is working while running.

After you get it running, put a volt meter on the battery posts. If it doesn't show at least 13.5 volts at 3000 or so rpm, there's trouble right here in River City..

[Kiwi_Roy]

Carl/s 1000 SP shows an alternator I am not familiar with
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1988_1000_SP.gif

[Perazzimx14]

Also check to make sure there is good grounding.

[Sazerac]

Thanks for all the great suggestions! I’m always optimistic that the fix will be as easy as a fully charged battery but know that this may take some time to work through where the juice is flowing. This will make for an interesting weekend!

[Two Checks]

Quote from: Kiwi_Roy on Today at 09:14:54 AM

Carl/s 1000 SP shows an alrwenator I am not familia with
>http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1988_1000_SP.gif

1988 would be a SPII with the Saprisa permanent magnet alternator.

[Sazerac]

Battery fully charged but still no luck. I’ll start digging into it tomorrow...

[blackcat]

Battery fully charged but still no luck. I’ll start digging into it tomorrow...

If it has the original switch with the bullet wire connectors, then I'd be looking for a new switch.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Are you reading the Voltage off a multimeter or off the dash panel, it makes a difference.

A couple of tips with batteries
Dont ever connect a battery up without first scraping the terminals and applying some sort of grease to prevent the terminals from oxidizing (Vaseline is my choice)
Always disconnect the Negative terminal first and re-connect it last, this avoids accidentally shorting it out which can be quite un-nerving.

The power makes its way to the ignition switch via a fat red wire then back to the fuse box via a fat brown wire, measure the Voltage at the fuse box to chassis, it should be almost the same as the red wire to chassis. If the bike still has the original pointy fuses I would suspect those as the point where you are loosing Voltage, I usually clean the points up by rubbing on some cloth then make sure the springs are under good tension, I know some owners stretch an "O" ring around them to apply tension, there again smear a little vaseline on the points to stop then corroding.
Any spade or bullet connectors have to be clean and tight.

[stratoguzzi]

Mine did the same and it turned out to be the ignition switch.Took it apart and a small post for the on circuit was loose.Staked it with a small punch and continuity was restored....

[Kiwi_Roy]

Mine did the same and it turned out to be the ignition switch.Took it apart and a small post for the on circuit was loose.Staked it with a small punch and continuity was restored....

There again this would show up as a low Voltage at the brown wire, with the key On you should have almost full Voltage back at the brown wire feeding the fuses then through the fuses.
You never answered whether you are reading the Voltage off the dash gauge or off a multimeter.

[nick949]

Check the battery terminals are tight and clean.  It's simple stuff that will stop you dead.

Nick

[Kiwi_Roy]

Its something really simple
Start by cleaning the battery terminals as Nick says, scrape them with a pocket knife or similar to get rid of the hard lighter grey oxidization then preferably smear some grease on them, this provides a barrier against oxygen in the air which causes the lead to oxidize. Lead Oxide is a perfect insulator. Once they are cleaned and greased they will last several years without a re-occurance.

With the key turned on look for 12 Volts on the fat brown wire at the fuse area, that's the first place that sees power when the key is turned On.

Check the fuses to make sure they are tight, you should see 12 Volts compared to chassis at both ends of the fuses, the diagram shows just two are fed from the ignition switch (Brown wire)
and a couple of others, the green wire is the parking light and tail-light

Notice how on the diagram I posted, the red wire going to the ignition switch doesn't run direct from the battery to the switch it shows it from a terminal on the solenoid, it may be either way so don't be put off by that, either way is good.

Reading back over your post you said you have 11 Volts, I'm going to assume you didn't have a multimeter in your pocket but you read that off the Voltmeter in the dash
The dash Voltmeter measures more than the battery, it reads the Voltage after the ignition switch, one fuse and several connections so it may be reading lower than the actual Voltage if it has a poor connection along the way (here again I would suspect the fuse not making proper contact) or perhaps a dirty switch contact or loose spade connector.

If you get stuck reach out for the fellow Guzzi riders in your area, many of them have been riding Guzzi so long they would have you going in no time flat and invite you to a social event while doing it.

Good Luck

[Sazerac]

Well, I finally got some time to take off the windscreen and see what’s going on. I removed the key switch and disassembled it, but other than 35+ years of dust it looked fine. There wasn’t any resistance when I checked it with the key in so I thought I would reassemble to think about what to test next. I had the wild idea to try and and see if my fiddling did anything, and voila! It worked! I can only as assume that one of the connections to the key switch was loose and just needed to be reconnected.

Thanks to all for your responses!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thats good, it may reoccur just be ready for it
As I pointed out the old style European fuses are a failure point but they can be easily tightened up.
Another point I have had fail are the Molex connectors, sometimes the high current ones can cut in and out for a while they really don't serve any purpose once the bike has left the factory so I have no hesitation in bypassing with a butt splice. When you get the opportunity inspect the connectors for discolouration and loose contacts, spade connectors etc.

It's a 30 year old bike, it needs a little bit of TLC, don't wait for it to fail.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, I finally got some time to take off the windscreen and see what’s going on. I removed the key switch and disassembled it, but other than 35+ years of dust it looked fine. There wasn’t any resistance when I checked it with the key in so I thought I would reassemble to think about what to test next. I had the wild idea to try and and see if my fiddling did anything, and voila! It worked! I can only as assume that one of the connections to the key switch was loose and just needed to be reconnected.

Thanks to all for your responses!

Caig DeOxit is your friend. Spend a couple of hours and go through every electrical connection.. especially high current ones. Spray both, insert, wiggle them around, pull them apart, put them back together. You and your bike will be glad you did.
In many cases on these old bikes, the corrosion will be pretty severe. For instance:
2018-08-01_01-35-54 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
They will need to be cleaned up with a point file, fingernail file, popsickle stick and emery, etc. first.
You may also find that after all these years the connectors have become brittle from heat and cooling.
2018-08-01_01-36-10 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Just unplugging that connector and replugging that connector on the ignition switch cleaned it a little. It *will* happen again if you don't spend some time doing this. It's much preferred to do this in the comfort of your shed than by the side of the road. At night. In the rain. 

[blackcat]

Buy a new switch, it’s $25 bucks and it’s one less thing to worry about failing again. Then consider having Greg Bender fabricate a new harness if you’re going to keep the bike for a long time.  Good luck.

[moto-uno]

 Well if you're considering a harness , it's probably one of the most satisfying DIY jobs  there is  , Peter
 

[Sazerac]

Thanks for the tip on deoxit. Is there a specific series you’d recommend? I have just been using the dielectric grease up to this point.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks for the tip on deoxit. Is there a specific series you’d recommend? I have just been using the dielectric grease up to this point.

<tearing out hair> Fortunately, there aren't many relays on a 1000SP for dielectric grease to screw up. Don't even *think* of putting it on the ignition switch contacts. The only "good" place for it is the spark plug boots.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Have been using Petroleum Jelly aka Vaseline on contacts for well over 50 years, as an apprentice we used to slather it on the large drum controllers of overhead cranes, it would extend the life of the rubbing parts.
On battery terminals it prevents the formation of Lead Oxide, on NiFe batteries it prevents corrosion and on any contact or joint open to moisture it will keep the metal pristine, I seldom apply a crimp on terminal without first dipping the wire in it.

I have no experience with Dielectric grease  because I have never felt the need to use it but several on here who's opinion I value hate the stuff.

There is quite an array of Craig De-Oxit, which one do you recommend Chuck?
https://caig.com/deoxit-d-series/

[Chuck in Indiana]

Have been using Petroleum Jelly aka Vaseline on contacts for well over 50 years, as an apprentice we used to slather it on the large drum controllers of overhead cranes, it would extend the life of the rubbing parts.
On battery terminals it prevents the formation of Lead Oxide, on NiFe batteries it prevents corrosion and on any contact or joint open to moisture it will keep the metal pristine, I seldom apply a crimp on terminal without first dipping the wire in it.

I have no experience with Dielectric grease  because I have never felt the need to use it but several on here who's opinion I value hate the stuff.

There is quite an array of Craig De-Oxit, which one do you recommend Chuck?
https://caig.com/deoxit-d-series/

I like the D5. It's not as expensive (Guzzi content)  as the Gold. It's been nothing short of magical on these old electrical systems.

[moto-uno]

 As one who has used dielectric grease for literally decades on mine and customers bikes ( and for a short while in marinas ) I'm curious what experiences they've have lead to the
hate for this experience ? Have I just been lucky for this long ?  Peter

[s1120]

As one who has used dielectric grease for literally decades on mine and customers bikes ( and for a short while in marinas ) I'm curious what experiences they've have lead to the
hate for this experience ? Have I just been lucky for this long ?  Peter

Ive only used it on plug boots, and to seal up connection boots.. I dont know for a fact, but I always thought its main use was to stop electrical arcing, and crossfire..  At least thats what I was always tought back in the day.

[Chuck in Indiana]

As one who has used dielectric grease for literally decades on mine and customers bikes ( and for a short while in marinas ) I'm curious what experiences they've have lead to the
hate for this experience ? Have I just been lucky for this long ?  Peter

You'll probably be ok if you don't have relays to deal with and keep it out of the ignition switch.  I don't have time to look it up right now, but Wayne has posted warnings from a relay manufacturer about it's use.
I had a bike that went through two owners that couldn't make it run. A previous owner had thought it was a good idea to pack *everything* with dielectric grease. It took me a very long time to get it cleaned out and the bike running..after replacing the relays.
One of our old members.. Herbert Few.. did the same. Muley bought that bike and finally got it going.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, I'm back. The original pdf and info on Waynes site was an Austrian company.
I found a post by him on ADV rider. I'm sure he won't mind a repost here.. highlight mine.
    As written by Wayne Orwig, MGNOC Georgia State Rep.

    Using Dielectric Grease on connectors.

    A lot of people use dielectric grease on connectors. Some people mistakenly believe that dieletric grease is a conductor. In fact, it is just the opposite; it is an insulator. Dielectric grease is typically made of silicone grease.

    As an insulator, dielectric grease is good for use on spark plug boots. This was one of the original applications on vehicles when the high-energy ignition systems came out. It can help insulate the connector and, in particular on a motorcycle where it can get wet, it waterproofs the spark plug boot. And, because it is silicone, it is fairly stable at high temperatures and won't affect the rubber and plastics.

    So why would you put an insulator on a connector? The idea is that you use a thin layer. When you push the connector together the grease is pushed out of the way enough to get a connection and the surrounding grease then keeps out water and oxygen. The connector will be protected from the environment and less likely to corrode. Plus, the silicone is safe for the plastics and PVC insulation.

    That sounds good, so far; so why not smear it on everything? Well there are a number of good reasons.

    First, silicone grease outgases constantly. If the silicone gas gets near a connector or a contact, such as a relay, and there is a spark, the spark at the contact can create silicon dioxide. Some people even suggest that the silicone gas from dielectric grease can travel many feet through the unsulation on a wire and damage a contact on the other end. Omron states that even their sealed switches can be damaged by nearby silicone grease outgassing. Reference the following links for more info:

    http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-d2vw.pdf

    http://machinedesign.com/article/lubricating-electrical-switches-1025

    Second, it is an insulator. It can prevent contacts from touching. If you do use it, use a very thin layer.

    Third, if you have a corroded connection, silicone grease will not help. In fact, it may make it worse. It can never improve anything. Dielectric grease will never make a poor connection better.

    Fourth, it attracts dust and dirt and it hardens over time. This means that if you smear a lot of silicone grease on connectors you may see nearby relays, switches, or points fail later on. Since silicone grease does nothing at all to improve the connection and, in fact, may insulate the contacts in the connector increasing the resistance the connector may still fail.

    So what do you do? Look for a contact enhancer/lube. While most contact cleaners are simple solvents that just wash the connector off there are contact enhancers that deoxidize the contact surface and actually work to lower the contact resistance (make a better connection). Most contact enhancers leave a lubricant behind that protects the metal and continue to deoxidize the metal and improve the connection. They can work to lower the resistance and make a better contact as time goes by. The best you can hope for from dielectric grease is that it seals it enough to not get worse. I have used Caig Deoxit on my bikes for a few years now. I first found out about this on my job when I had to correct an issue in a connector system that could not tolerate even 5 thousandths of an ohm of resistance drift. We had a connector in the field that had been improperly plated and was starting to drift, mostly in warm humid areas like Florida. Our testing showed that the Caig Deoxit could be a good long-term fix. We ended up using the Deoxit to stabilize the bad units until we could get corrected wiring harnesses built with the correct connectors. We also put a layer of Deoxit on the new parts to protect and keep them clean over their lifetime. This solved the drift issue that we had.

    I still use a small amount of silicone grease on my spark plug caps. It helps to waterproof them and makes it easier to pull the cap off, but I use it in very small amounts and never near a relay or switch.

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