Tubeless Conversion-- A Different Approach

[John Warner]

Funny Jim! 

I'm sure I saw somewhere long ago, where someone put two Tubes in a Tyre.
I think the reasoning was it'd be highly unlikely that anything puncturing the Tyre would get both Inner-Tubes.
One deflating, however suddenly, should theoretically leave you with at least half the original pressure.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I have found the best way to hold air in a wire spoked wheel is to slip an inner tube inside of the tire and put he air in that.
Motorcyclists have been doing this for well over a hundred years.

100 years ago we had one drum brake on the rear and nothing on the front, carbide lights as well, perhaps we had just upgraded from a drive belt and no gearbox to a chain drive, no rear suspension.

[SIR REAL ED]

I am in the midst of the Loctite 290 method, applied to the spoke nipples and wells. The front went down 8 psi in 12 hours and after a dunk in the tub I've found 1 leaking nipple.  I've removed the valve core to deflate the tire and doctored the nipple with denatured alcohol to speed the drying process, I'll let it set awhile and then reapply the Loctite to that particular nipple.  It's highly possible that I missed it in the original application, the Loctite draws in immediately and it's easy to lose your place.

The rear wheel is down 2-3 psi in 20 hours, but I wonder if that's loss incurred using the gauges.  Stay tuned for updates.

Sarah

Sarah,

I'm curious, when you had the tires off, did you notice if either or both of your rims had the safety ridges?  If so, which one had what?  thanks,

Ed

[SIR REAL ED]

I have found the best way to hold air in a wire spoked wheel is to slip an inner tube inside of the tire and put he air in that.
Motorcyclists have been doing this for well over a hundred years.

sooner or later, the Harley Davidson riding motorcycle purists show up every where.......

[tommy2cyl]

Yet another design of tubeless spoked rims.  Company is called Moto Wheels.  Product is Kineo Wheels.  Saw an ad for Ducati Desert Sled front wheel.
$1165.00 if I remember right.  Looks like a "busy" design and I think would be tough to keep clean.  Still like the BMW design best.

[tommy2cyl]

Dug a little deeper.  Kineo makes a lot of wheels for many motorcycle manufacturers, including MG's.   $1000 up per wheel.  Not cheap.  Doesn't seem they have a wheel for the V 85 yet.  At least not listed on the site.  The design does away with the Alpina O ring issue.  What do you think of this design Sir Real Ed?

[SIR REAL ED]

Dug a little deeper.  Kineo makes a lot of wheels for many motorcycle manufacturers, including MG's.   $1000 up per wheel.  Not cheap.  Doesn't seem they have a wheel for the V 85 yet.  At least not listed on the site.  The design does away with the Alpina O ring issue.  What do you think of this design Sir Real Ed?

Only the valve stem hole thru the rim, so it should seal well.  I like the look of all the spoke lugs on the inside of the rim. 

Lots of parts, so obviously expensive.  Tough to clean I imagine.  I still like the BMW tubeless design the best.  Damn shame they patented it.

[Moto Vita]

Only the valve stem hole thru the rim, so it should seal well.  I like the look of all the spoke lugs on the inside of the rim. 

Lots of parts, so obviously expensive.  Tough to clean I imagine.  I still like the BMW tubeless design the best.  Damn shame they patented it.

 Wouldn't that patent be expired by now? It's been over 30 years.

[tommy2cyl]

I talked to Chris at Woody's Wheels in Denver last Friday.   They don't make a tubeless wheel for the MG V 85.  I imagine they would offer this design if they were "allowed".  If anyone could make them, they would be the source.  He highly recommended OUTEX.  I know they sell the kits, but he says it is a very good product and they do the conversions all the time.  If anyone has another possible source of a wheel fabricator with the spokes to the outside rim design, I would love to know about it.

[larrys]

sooner or later, the Harley Davidson riding motorcycle purists show up every where.......

I think that Jim makes a valid point. Yeah, tubeless is safer, but that statement doesn't mean that tubed tires are unsafe. I've been riding half a century and have had a couple flats, neither of which caused me to wipe out. Keeping your tires inflated properly is your best insurance. YMMV.
Larry

[tommy2cyl]

My over riding interest in tubeless is not concern over having a flat and what happens during that event.  I know that a tubed tire deflation can be quick and generally a puncture in a tubeless is "less severe" at speed.  My goal is in quick tire repair along side the road if a puncture occurs.  The real danger is being along a busy road and having a lengthy repair with inattentive drivers flying by @ 80 mph.   I just want to get it plugged and out of harms  way.

[John Croucher]

Safety Bead?  Is this a proven method to "help" retain a tire on a motorcycle rim or is this a promotion created my some marketing department many decades ago to sell more of a brand of motorcycle? 

Any one have the history of this "safety bead"?  It appears to be one of those "it has always been done this way, so it must be right" kinda things. 

Obviously it does not work.  If it did, a tire could not be put on or off a rim with simple hand tools. 

As far as putting tape inside of a rim to seal, I saw the result of it balling up after peeling off from the gyroscopic force pulling away from the rim. 

Checked the rims I sealed with 3M marine sealant yesterday.  They have not lost any pressure since I last check pre Kentucky Rally ride in September. I'm good with my choice in sealing.

The Why do it question comes up.  I did it for weight reduction.  I installed aluminum Excell rims, lightened the hubs and brake carriers.  Losing nearly 10 pound per wheel assembly.  A lot of rotating mass.  And because I could. 

[wirespokes]

John - I wouldn't say that safety beads absolutely keep the tire mounted, but I'm sure they do help. After all, they make it more difficult mounting and dismounting.

What's your perception of handling since losing all that unsprung weight?

[Huzo]

Most of what I read suggests that the biggest concern is rapid deflation post puncture.
Naturally this will be due to air escaping through the spoke nipples and single valve hole. For those who want two bob each way, how about sealing the spoke heads and keep your tubes ?
Won’t be the way I’ll go, but a safety measure maybe ?

[wirespokes]

Well, you could seal the valve stem also, Huzo. A good thick o-ring inside, and maybe even a rubber seal on the outside should do the trick. That oughta slow the egress. Then all you've gotta worry about is a blow out, and 90% of those are caused by low air pressure.

I met an old timer who'd set records in the 30s out on Long Beach. His reality was that a large percentage of bike accidents back then were due to tire failures. Makes me respect even more the guys back then who set speed records over 100mph.

[rocker59]

  I've been riding half a century and have had a couple flats, neither of which caused me to wipe out. 

You've been lucky.  When I was riding a lot, I had flats regularly.  At least one per year.  Usually the rear.  Running tubeless and being able to plug and go sure is nice.

Those flats are never convenient.  Usually out in the middle of nowhere.  Plugging a tubeless tire and using a mini compressor to reinflate gets you back on the road in minutes. 

For me, patching or replacing a tube on a 500+lbs motorcycle, on the side of the road, just isn't something I want to suffer.

[wirespokes]

To add to what you just said, rocker, most of my bikes need to be tilted to the side a lot or remove the front wheel to get the back end high enough to clear the fender. I was lucky enough one time the rear tire went flat at a rest stop. I was able to put the rear tire over the curb which made removal pretty easy. But the time before that I'd had to remove the front wheel after tying the center stand down.

So being able to plug and go is a real time saver.

Les - with a safety bead, if the tire does come off the bead, it's going to be fun getting it seated again without a squirt of butane.

[greer]

So far so good on the Loctite 290.  One thing to note: in re-treating the front rim, we noticed that if we weren't careful to keep the tip clear the Loctite would tend to clog and thicken just a bit, possibly keeping it from wicking as well as it might.  I suspect that may have been my trouble the first time around, so would suggest anyone considering this to be mindful of that.  I got a chance to ride yesterday afternoon and tried to test the bike best I could; I ended up in our big health pavilion parking lot full of speed bumps, standing on the pegs and hitting them as fast and hard as I dared.  I rode 30 miles altogether and my pressures this morning are exactly where they were when I started.  I'll keep you posted.

Sarah

[blu guzz]

sounds like a job well done.  i would like to do this, heck, would have done this 20 years ago, but  now don't want to have to change my own tires. lazy me.

[Kiwi_Roy]

So far so good on the Loctite 290.  One thing to note: in re-treating the front rim, we noticed that if we weren't careful to keep the tip clear the Loctite would tend to clog and thicken just a bit, possibly keeping it from wicking as well as it might.  I suspect that may have been my trouble the first time around, so would suggest anyone considering this to be mindful of that.  I got a chance to ride yesterday afternoon and tried to test the bike best I could; I ended up in our big health pavilion parking lot full of speed bumps, standing on the pegs and hitting them as fast and hard as I dared.  I rode 30 miles altogether and my pressures this morning are exactly where they were when I started.  I'll keep you posted.

Sarah

Hi Sarah,
              When I replace the rubber on my V7iii this spring, i'm going tubeless, I wasn't aware of the Loctite 290 method until you started this thread, that's the way I am leaning at the moment.
How much Loctite 290 do I need to do two wheels, would one or two of the small bottles be enough?
Did you put a tape over the top, if so which one or just rely on the Loctite?
Thanks
Roy

[greer]

Hi Sarah,
              When I replace the rubber on my V7iii this spring, i'm going tubeless, I wasn't aware of the Loctite 290 method until you started this thread, that's the way I am leaning at the moment.
How much Loctite 290 do I need to do two wheels, would one or two of the small bottles be enough?
Did you put a tape over the top, if so which one or just rely on the Loctite?
Thanks
Roy

It's was a new one on me too, Roy.  I used only the Loctite 290 applied to the top of the nipples and the well, just like the fellow in the Triumph thread.  No tape or anything else.  This 10ml bottle seems like it would do several sets of rims, for one bike I'd think the 6ml tube would be plenty.  I looked around and didn't find it on any local shelves, so I ordered off Amazon.  Pressures still holding as of last night.

Sarah

[Moto Vita]

There is no good reason to put Loctite on the nipple threads if that is what has been done.
Edit.
Loctite 290 is a wicking thread locker for assembled fasteners.

When I was putting the Mallory metal inserts in my crankshaft I contacted Loctite USA asking for a product recommendation based on how I intended to do it which at that stage was to secure them with pad weld (TIG/309 filler wire) but leave some access so a locking agent could still get into the area... as an added precaution (I ended up doing 360 degree 309 pad welds instead)
One guess which product Loctite recommended (290) but don't let me put anyone off.

 Were your inserts threaded?

[Kiwi_Roy]

A little more research and discussion with our local sealant and adhesive distributors/manufacturers and the local Loctite guys suggested I try (no guarantees) their Loctite 290 Green product. For the equivalent of US$20.00 I bought a little 50ml bottle of the stuff.
 

In her very first post Sarah explains why she chose 290

[greer]

Roy is right, I just followed the fellow in the Triumph thread.  Here's the little blurb from Loctite:

Threadlocking adhesive - medium/ high strength. Ideal for locking preassembled fasteners.
LOCTITE® 290 is a liquid medium/high-strength threadlocker designed for the locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. Because of its low viscosity and capillary action, the product wicks between engaged threads and eliminates the need for disassembly prior to application. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close-fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage due to shock and vibration. The product can also fill porosities in welds, castings and powdered metal parts.

And here's the link to the Data Sheet:
https://tdsna.henkel.com/americas/na/adhesives/hnauttds.nsf/web/3184021E8BB54341882571870000D626/$File/290-EN.pdf

Sarah

[Kiwi_Roy]

Two sealants to consider: Loctite 211 ; Vibra-Tite 111. Both are low viscosity, low strength, wicking sealants. They will seal the threads, but allow adjusting or removing. Horst

Reading the data sheets a couple of notes stand out
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
LOCTITE® 211 a pre-applied coating for threaded fasteners and fittings. During assembly the microcaps contained in the coating are crushed thereby releasing an active ingredient which initiates the curing process.
The spoke nipples are pre assembled so I doubt it would work
---------------------------------------
LOCTITE 220
4. This product is not recommended for pre-assembled threads in a blind hole.
LOCTITE 220 is designed for the locking and sealing of threaded fasteners which require normal disassembly with standard hand tools.
The 220 may be ok as the nipple threads are not really blind holes, The second note is appealing
Thanks for your input Horst

[Kiwi_Roy]

The most applicable Loctite would be # 220, a blue, low viscosity, wicking sealant.  Horst.

By the way
Welcome to the forum, are you a Guzzi rider?

[greer]

I know there's been some concern over disassembly, in case you ever need to adjust the spokes.  Here's a copy&paste from the Loctite 290 Data Sheet:

For Disassembly
1. Remove with standard hand tools.
2. In rare instances where hand tools do not work because
of excessive engagement length, apply localized heat to
nut or bolt to approximately 250 °C. Disassemble while
hot.

Sarah

[wirespokes]

250C is close to 500F.

Maybe someone ought to try unthreading a spoke nipple sealed with 290 - on the bench. I'd be concerned applying that much heat to a spoke. But if it'll back out without heat then you're ok.

[KiwiKev]

Just a thought for you tubed guys out there, the aerosol inflator / sealers
are worth looking at. I carried one on my Cali for years and tried it
out when I had a slow leak a couple of years back. It worked fine and is a no brainier to carry with
you IMHO.

Sure beats trying to fix a flat on the side of the road.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Just a thought for you tubed guys out there, the aerosol inflator / sealers
are worth looking at. I carried one on my Cali for years and tried it
out when I had a slow leak a couple of years back. It worked fine and is a no brainier to carry with
you IMHO.

Sure beats trying to fix a flat on the side of the road.

In my experience, they're quite useless. Might work for a slow leak, but nothing more.

A few years ago I was off-road riding on my XT500 with several other XT500 guys. At one point the guy in front of me started swerving side-to-side and then went off into a shallow ditch. Rear tire flat. The leader of our group proudly whipped out his can of "fix-a-flat" proclaiming that it would do the job according to what he'd read on ADV Rider. It failed miserably. 

Lots of hand wringing ensued, especially since we were in an area with no cellphone signal. None of them had a "plan B". No worries - in my backpack I had patches, glue, tire irons, CO2 inflator - everything to do the job, even a spare tube. Within 20 minutes the tube was patched, wheel back in place and inflated.

In my own bikes with tubes (which is 100% of them), I use "Ride On" which is a sealer/balancer. Before that I used PJ1 Balance Plus which was the same type of product. Both work well - I've had punctures without ever even knowing it. Orange (or green for PJ1) spot on the tube where the puncture was sealed. The only time it didn't work was when I somehow picked up three nails all together (from a strip for a nail gun I assume). That made a rather large hole in my tire and an even larger one in the tube. PJ1 tried it's best, but failed.

Last Sunday I was checking over the Convert before going out for a ride, like I do before every ride. Front tire: 32 psi, rear tire: zero.  Spun the tire around a couple of times before I finally spotted a screw down in the groove of the tread. The head of it was quite worn, so it was in there a while. Never noticed any weird handling from low pressure when I rode it last. Super slow leak - I pumped it up so I could move the bike and it took a several days to drop back to 20 psi. Ride On doing it's thing I guess.