Tubeless Conversion-- A Different Approach

[SIR REAL ED]

WOW, we are not lacking details in this discussion. Nor should we.

But - I've had tire problems on the road with tube tires, and somehow got through them and got home.

I definitely would PREFER tubeless tires,  have them on my BMW, and hope to have them on a cafe Guzzi that's in the works. But I probably will not convert my Cali 1100i to tubeless simply because the tradeoff for me is to work through the issues IF you ever have a problem on the road with your tube tires OR spend time and $$$$ converting in the small likelihood that you MIGHT have a problem on the road.

Life is a series of choices.

well said.  I think the consensus is forming that tubeless tires on tubeless rims are the best choice, tube type tires on tube type rims are the least acceptable, and tubeless tires on a tube type rim are the intermediate choice.

But as always, opinions will vary.

I agree you can argue that the tubeless "fix" for tubeless wheels can resemble a pound of prevention for an ounce of cure.  All depends on what the rider is comfortable with in regards to their shop abilities and the fear/consequences both real or imagined of being stranded. 

Largely, the tubeless fix is "fun" tinkering that may result in "peace of mind" for the rider.  Defining "fun" and "peace of mind" are personal concerns.

[SIR REAL ED]

All I'll say here is that the Alpina Rims (as used on the NTX Stelvio), in my opinion, are one of the dumbest design ideas I've ever seen on a Bike in 41+ years of messing with them.
'On paper', fine, it's an OK idea, but the second they leave the Production line they'll be slowly deteriorating.
You can't realistically 'maintain' the O-Rings to keep them in good condition, unless you want to strip them apart every year or so.

As for sealing the Rims, and still being able to adjust the Spokes, you could paint the inner Nipple end with a dry-film mould-release before sealing.
That would stop the Sealant adhering to the Nipple, but wouldn't affect the sealing.

Interesting perspective on the Alpina Rims.  I like the design and I'd trust them with my life.  If one was really concerned about o-ring deterioration, you could always replace them when the tire is changed.

Can't say that disassembling components simply to maintain 0-rings would be a big concern to many.  Most 0-rings are there for life if the enclosing components are not removed for a different reason.  But, this is a peace of mind modification, so to each his own.

I do agree with you on the spoke adjustability.  I think a non hardening silicone sealant is also a feasible substitute as long as it is viscous  enough to stay if place while rotating the wheel and applying the sealing tape.

[wirespokes]

I think the consensus is forming that tubeless tires on tubeless rims are the best choice, tube type tires on tube type rims are the least acceptable, and tubeless tires on a tube type rim are the intermediate choice.

Agreed!

The difficulty is gaining understanding that converting a tube type to tubeless is a safer way to go. If there's no safety bead, running tubes makes very little difference keeping the bead seated. If air pressure is too low, it doesn't matter - the tire can unseat - tube or not.

A very smart guy in the bmw airhead community did some very thorough analysis of the issue. He's a pilot, has raced, ran a repair shop, and did a lot of in-depth testing of tires. You can read what he did and it's impressive. His conclusion is pretty much what I've been saying. His conclusion was that in all cases but one, the tubeless conversion (without safety bead) is safer than running tubes. That one case is where a rim gets bent enough that it wouldn't seal the bead, and somehow the tube wasn't pinched so still held air. You can read all about it here:

https://bmwmotorcycletech.info/section6.htm

[bigbikerrick]

My spoked wheels have already been converted years ago, and have been holding air just fine, but If i had to do it again, knowing what I know now about the products available to seal rims, I would use the 3m 5200 fast cure to seal the spoke holes, then the 3m tape on top. Looks to be the most fool proof method. IMHO.   
Rick

[Moto Vita]

Point of reference, friends.  All DOT approved motorcycle wheels over the past couple decades have the beads on the rims.  Cast or spoked.

Sure, if you're talking about your old 1970s Guzzi, the wire wheels do not have the safety bead and really shouldn't be run tubeless.

If the wheel is stamped DOT MC, it's going to have the beads.

 I don't know about the DOT stamp part but there are plenty of modern bikes that come without safety bead rims. The Honda Africa Twin comes to mind as that's the main reason I never bought one.

[Moto Vita]

Poll:
vote 1 if you have ever had a flat with a tube and/or found a nail in a tubeless tire, but the tire still held air.
vote 2 if you have ever had a tubeless tire pop off a tube type rim while at speed (or even while stopped for that matter).

Let me guess, 1000 #1 votes, zero #2 votes.

 Your third question should be, how many have ever run a tubeless tire without tube on a tube type rim? Not many I suspect, other than the BMW snowflakes I think it's almost unheard of.
 I've had tubeless tires pop off of tubeless rims a few times, does that count? It was in low pressure off road applications so probably not the example you were looking for, but the same principles apply.

[Moto Vita]

well said.  I think the consensus is forming that tubeless tires on tubeless rims are the best choice, tube type tires on tube type rims are the least acceptable, and tubeless tires on a tube type rim are the intermediate choice.

 To be thorough it should be pointed out that tube type tires work fine on tubeless rims, as long as you use a tube.

[SIR REAL ED]

To be thorough it should be pointed out that tube type tires work fine on tubeless rims, as long as you use a tube.

Yep!  And the fourth case is tubeless tires on tube type rims with a tube installed.  My current Guzzi situation.  Tire say "Tubeless, on tube type rim, fit tube."

[acguzzi]

Your third question should be, how many have ever run a tubeless tire without tube on a tube type rim? Not many I suspect, other than the BMW snowflakes I think it's almost unheard of.
 

I guess I'm one of the few then, I've done this on several wheels and gone racing, at corner speeds totally unrealistic on the road, never had a problem. I think if the tire separates from rim enough to lose air I'm probably crashing anyway.

[Moto Vita]

I guess I'm one of the few then, I've done this on several wheels and gone racing, at corner speeds totally unrealistic on the road, never had a problem. I think if the tire separates from rim enough to lose air I'm probably crashing anyway.

 Interesting. What tires, what rims, and what type of racing?

[acguzzi]

I have some CMA cast rims I ran tubeless with metzler when sport tires moved away from tubed bias ply, then I replaced those with cast wheels from a mk4 lemans, then got some boranni with avon am22, then went to 17 inch rims laced to the old hubs using pirelli supercorsa on excel rims. I've been running it on the track for nearly 20 years, I race with AHRMA in superbike middleweight. I suppose Iv'e been experimenting this for nearly 30 years. All I did on the cast wheels was fit a tubeless valve, one of them (a CMA cast wheel) did have a slow leak due to casting porosity, just had to keep the tires checked.

[Moto Vita]

I have some CMA cast rims I ran tubeless with metzler when sport tires moved away from tubed bias ply, then I replaced those with cast wheels from a mk4 lemans, then got some boranni with avon am22, then went to 17 inch rims laced to the old hubs using pirelli supercorsa on excel rims. I've been running it on the track for nearly 20 years, I race with AHRMA in superbike middleweight. I suppose Iv'e been experimenting this for nearly 30 years. All I did on the cast wheels was fit a tubeless valve, one of them (a CMA cast wheel) did have a slow leak due to casting porosity, just had to keep the tires checked.

 Cool! Are you running the Excels tubeless? If so what is your preferred sealing method?

[acguzzi]

yes I run the excels tubeless, I did it the hard way with rtv, a cut down innertube to be a rim strip with valve, and more rtv, after reading all this  there may be simpler (or better) options, I haven't had to adjust any spokes yet, having the innertube as a rim strip may increase my chances of retaining seal, we'll see. I did use a smaller tube (16 inch I think) for the rim strip, that way it is tight against the rim instead of being loose. I believe credit for this method belongs to another poster on this BB.

[jpv7]

This thread has pretty much convinced me to convert my V7ii Special over to tubeless.  I'm currently using the RA3s.  I might try the 3M 4200 (easier to remove) instead of the 5200, with the 3M tape on top.  Thanks!

[John Warner]

Interesting perspective on the Alpina Rims.  I like the design and I'd trust them with my life.  If one was really concerned about o-ring deterioration, you could always replace them when the tire is changed.

Can't say that disassembling components simply to maintain 0-rings would be a big concern to many.  Most 0-rings are there for life if the enclosing components are not removed for a different reason.  But, this is a peace of mind modification, so to each his own.

I do agree with you on the spoke adjustability.  I think a non hardening silicone sealant is also a feasible substitute as long as it is viscous  enough to stay if place while rotating the wheel and applying the sealing tape.

As I said, it works, but only when new, or not more than a couple of years or so old.
After that they become an annoying liability.
Depends on environment, climate, use etc as well of course.

Disassembling (and re-furbishing, rebuilding, and truing) a Spoked wheel is a huge job (and expensive if you can't DIY), relative to something else that has an O-ring (or several) inside it, and they're almost always fully enclosed/sealed, so don't suffer the same type of deterioration as something like a Spoke Nipple, which is exposed to the elements, and has the added challenge of dissimilar-metal corrosion, exacerbated by the cocktail of salts on our roads throughout winter.

I was happy with mine, until they started to leak, but I went to Three-Spoke Alloys from a Griso anyway.
Of course they're not going to fail suddenly or spectacularly, failing O-Rings are no worse in practical terms than a typical slow punture in a Tubeless tyre, mine lost 3-4psi a week.

[John Croucher]

So lets play analyze this.  Looks like the tube has pressure and the safety bead did not work.

[wirespokes]

If it has a tube, I'd say it's deflated.

I blew up the image but it's difficult to tell if that rim has a safety bead or not. Kinda looks like it doesn't.

[redhawk47]

Point of reference, friends.  All DOT approved motorcycle wheels over the past couple decades have the beads on the rims.  Cast or spoked.

Sure, if you're talking about your old 1970s Guzzi, the wire wheels do not have the safety bead and really shouldn't be run tubeless.

If the wheel is stamped DOT MC, it's going to have the beads.

Not always true. I have a pair of rims (spoked) that came off a ~2006 KTM 950 Adventure. They are both marked DOT - D. The rear has safety beads, the front does not. The front doesn't really have room for safety beads; it is a 21-2.15.

Dan

[SIR REAL ED]

As I said, it works, but only when new, or not more than a couple of years or so old.
After that they become an annoying liability.
Depends on environment, climate, use etc as well of course.

Disassembling (and re-furbishing, rebuilding, and truing) a Spoked wheel is a huge job (and expensive if you can't DIY), relative to something else that has an O-ring (or several) inside it, and they're almost always fully enclosed/sealed, so don't suffer the same type of deterioration as something like a Spoke Nipple, which is exposed to the elements, and has the added challenge of dissimilar-metal corrosion, exacerbated by the cocktail of salts on our roads throughout winter.

I was happy with mine, until they started to leak, but I went to Three-Spoke Alloys from a Griso anyway.
Of course they're not going to fail suddenly or spectacularly, failing O-Rings are no worse in practical terms than a typical slow punture in a Tubeless tyre, mine lost 3-4psi a week.

Doc,

Are you saying you had a set of Alpina wheels and they started to leak after a couple of years?  If so, do you know if the o-rings were assembled dry?  If so, I hope you had the chance to dope slap the person who did the assembly.

When they started to leak, did you submerge part of the wheel at a time and determining how many spokes per wheel were leaking?

Very Interesting.  Thanks in advance for your answers.

[tommy2cyl]

Sir Real Ed:  My questions as well.  Thanks for asking Doc to clarify.  Still enjoying this discussion.

[SIR REAL ED]

Sir Real Ed:  My questions as well.  Thanks for asking Doc to clarify.  Still enjoying this discussion.

Me too.  Lots of interesting set of opinions from lots of experienced people. 

As Doc says lots of things can affect longevity.  With o-rings especially, careful assembly and proper o-ring material selection are huge factors.

Lots of o-ring failures can be traced back to lack of lubrication or presence of debris during assembly.

One could argue that the tire side o-ring pneumatically seals the rim and the inner o-ring protects the pneumatic seal from the elements.  But if it requires a rocket scientist to do the assembly, there are better solutions.

The Alpina wheels are definitely an expensive route to solve a problem that has obviously been solved less expensively by lots of people.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Your third question should be, how many have ever run a tubeless tire without tube on a tube type rim? Not many I suspect, other than the BMW snowflakes I think it's almost unheard of.
 

Well excuse me, my 72 Eldorado should qualify, I have been running its wheels tubeless for 4 years. The wheels are original without a bead. I replaced the original spokes because they were really rusty and sealed them with GE General purpose 100% Silicone.
https://www.amazon.ca/Silicone-Window-Door-Sealant-2-8/dp/B000M2UPAG/ref=asc_df_B000M2UPAG/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=339674613808&hvpos=1o7&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1481927829330053640&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001506&hvtargid=pla-791989743576&psc=1
A friend who introduced me to the concept runs his 46 Indian that way as well.

I will convert my V7iii but I intend to use the Loctite 290 with a backup 3M tape, at least that is the plan at the moment.
I still need to chose which 3M tape to use.

[SIR REAL ED]

Well excuse me, my 72 Eldorado should qualify, I have been running its wheels tubeless for 4 years. The wheels are original without a bead. I replaced the original spokes because they were really rusty and sealed them with GE General purpose 100% Silicone.
https://www.amazon.ca/Silicone-Window-Door-Sealant-2-8/dp/B000M2UPAG/ref=asc_df_B000M2UPAG/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=339674613808&hvpos=1o7&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1481927829330053640&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001506&hvtargid=pla-791989743576&psc=1
A friend who introduced me to the concept runs his 46 Indian that way as well.

I will convert my V7iii but I intend to use the Loctite 290 with a backup 3M tape, at least that is the plan at the moment.
I still need to chose which 3M tape to use.

Oddly enough, I just bought a tube of that yesterday.  I plan to test it to see if it is non-hardening. If I go down this road, it will not happen for a month or two, I plan to use a non-hardening silicone on the nipple and some 3M tape.

[John Warner]

Doc,
Are you saying you had a set of Alpina wheels and they started to leak after a couple of years?  If so, do you know if the o-rings were assembled dry?  If so, I hope you had the chance to dope slap the person who did the assembly.
When they started to leak, did you submerge part of the wheel at a time and determining how many spokes per wheel were leaking?
Very Interesting.  Thanks in advance for your answers.

My Stelvio was 6yrs old when I got it, but only had 19,000 miles on it (so a typical 2-3 year mileage for most riders).
Both wheels lost pressure almost from the beginning (of my ownership), I replaced the Wheels in April '17, at 28,000 miles.
I've not disassembled them yet, but probably will in a few months time.
I'll be sealing them with a 2-part Sealant.

I've also seen plenty of reports of younger Bikes (year & mileage-wise) having leaks from the Nipples.

I checked mine with Leak Detection Fluid, 6 Spokes on the rear, and 4 on the front leaked.

[Moto Vita]

My Stelvio was 6yrs old when I got it, but only had 19,000 miles on it (so a typical 2-3 year mileage for most riders).
Both wheels lost pressure almost from the beginning (of my ownership), I replaced the Wheels in April '17, at 28,000 miles.
I've not disassembled them yet, but probably will in a few months time.
I'll be sealing them with a 2-part Sealant.

I've also seen plenty of reports of younger Bikes (year & mileage-wise) having leaks from the Nipples.

I checked mine with Leak Detection Fluid, 6 Spokes on the rear, and 4 on the front leaked.

 Did you replace them with identical wheels? Where and how will you be applying the sealant and what two part sealant will you use?

[John Warner]

. . . I went to Three-Spoke Alloys from a Griso . . .

The plan is to seal just the Nipple Wells in the Rim.
Two-part Polysulphide Sealant.
Sticks like s**t to a blanket, and forms a tough but flexible seal.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282098582620

[greer]

I am in the midst of the Loctite 290 method, applied to the spoke nipples and wells. The front went down 8 psi in 12 hours and after a dunk in the tub I've found 1 leaking nipple.  I've removed the valve core to deflate the tire and doctored the nipple with denatured alcohol to speed the drying process, I'll let it set awhile and then reapply the Loctite to that particular nipple.  It's highly possible that I missed it in the original application, the Loctite draws in immediately and it's easy to lose your place.

The rear wheel is down 2-3 psi in 20 hours, but I wonder if that's loss incurred using the gauges.  Stay tuned for updates.

Sarah

[SIR REAL ED]

I am in the midst of the Loctite 290 method, applied to the spoke nipples and wells. The front went down 8 psi in 12 hours and after a dunk in the tub I've found 1 leaking nipple.  I've removed the valve core to deflate the tire and doctored the nipple with denatured alcohol to speed the drying process, I'll let it set awhile and then reapply the Loctite to that particular nipple.  It's highly possible that I missed it in the original application, the Loctite draws in immediately and it's easy to lose your place.

The rear wheel is down 2-3 psi in 20 hours, but I wonder if that's loss incurred using the gauges.  Stay tuned for updates.

Sarah

Sarah,

thanks for starting a great thread.  lots of useful information and interesting opinions.

Later in the spring, I'll probably go the silicone sealant under the sealing tape method.  I suspect the sealing tape does 98+% of the sealing, while the silicone is useful mainly to fill the gap on top of the nipple and prevent excess stretching of the tape.

[Sasquatch Jim]

I have found the best way to hold air in a wire spoked wheel is to slip an inner tube inside of the tire and put he air in that.
Motorcyclists have been doing this for well over a hundred years.

[wirespokes]

I have found the best way to hold air in a wire spoked wheel is to slip an inner tube inside of the tire and put he air in that.
Motorcyclists have been doing this for well over a hundred years.

LOL
Pretty funny.
Hell with that new-fangled idea of running them tubeless like so many are doing!! What the hell are they thinking, anyway???!!!!

Real airplanes have two wings and propellers - that's the ONLY way to fly!