DOT Helmets, WTH?

[LowRyter]

DOT helmets are supposed to be self-certified by the manufacturer.  I was one of those naive enough to believe that no one would sell a defective helmet.

Well, looks likes it's 43% fraud.

https://www.rideapart.com/articles/397241/dot-helmet-failure-rate-increases/

[kingoffleece]

And there's a bridge for sale in Brooklyn........... ...........

[wirespokes]

It'd be nice if they defined the tests. Like, what is 'failed labeling' all about???? And how about letting us know what tests failed.

I've wondered about those really cheap helmets and my sanity sticking with the expensive Arai - but not so much now.

[Lannis]

There's nothing more irrelevant or that I care less about in today's world than a government "safety certification".

After listening to a thousand B.S. OSHA safety talks, watching the CPSC try to regulate dirt bikes out of existence because of "lead dangers" (riders might chew on the battery terminals),  looking at what they've done to gas can spouts, and seeing (well, I barely see them anymore, my brain has tuned them out) the "This Product Is Known To The State Of California To Cause Cancer" on almost everything sold ....

.... a "DOT" certification on a helmet means absolutely nothing to me.   We buy Nolan, Schubert, and HJC helmets these days and I peel off anything I don't need.

Lannis

[LowRyter]

There's nothing more irrelevant or that I care less about in today's world than a government "safety certification".

yack yack

.... a "DOT" certification on a helmet means absolutely nothing to me.   We buy Nolan, Schubert, and HJC helmets these days and I peel off anything I don't need.

Lannis

Those are all DOT helmets.  And in true free market method, the standards are DOT but the it's self compliance.  I understand the USDA is going with that for meat inspectors soon.  As I said, I had more faith in the free market approach, why would anyone make a faulty helmet?

I have five or so HJCs, only two Snells (out of date).  My Shoeis are ECE.  I have to wonder about my HJCs, and  that 3/4 helmet from Cycle Gear.

[oldbike54]

 Uh , er , hmm , well , how long did this take to turn political ?

 Dusty

[JC85]

Most helmets sold in the US will be labeled DOT certified, just because that's the minimum, and it's easy for the layman to recognize. I always contact the manufacturer and check for additional certifications they have. An example is my LS2 Spitfire helmet. The ones produced for the US market, like mine, have a big DOT stamp on the goggle loop, but because it's made in the UK, it's also ECE certified, which is even more stringent than Snell on the testing requirements.

[Bisbonian]

I dad the me actual reports, there is a link so where and how to pull them.

Predictably, almost all the helmets which failed on performance were brands I'd never heard of. The name brands made me believe they catered to a certain group of motorcyclists who don't take helmets all that seriously.

Moral of the story, stick with a well known brand and you should be okay.

[cliffrod]

The best helmet quote I ever heard was about bicycle helmets, but it correlates well to motorcycle helmets. 

I was trying to move up from the wtf old soft bicycle "helmet" of my younger days that simply had a label with lines labeled "name" and "blood type".  Wondering about the differences between design and price of newer plastic & styrofoam models, the salesman simply said "what do you want - a one bounce or two bounce helmet?  How many times do you plan to hit the pavement with your head?"

[Ncdan]

Just to illustrate how ridiculous the DOT helmet laws are, read the info that comes with the most expensive helmets. You will find the warning “ if this helmet is involved in an accident such as dropping, replace immediately” or similar wording.

[LowRyter]

Just to illustrate how ridiculous the DOT helmet laws are, read the info that comes with the most expensive helmets. You will find the warning “ if this helmet is involved in an accident such as dropping, replace immediately” or similar wording.

That's industry practice for all MC helmets.  Has nothing to do with DOT.

[twowheeladdict]

My wife had a helmet that was recalled.  We got the full purchase price back and bought her a different color helmet.   

[Ncdan]

That's industry practice for all MC helmets.  Has nothing to do with DOT.

I understand, the point I’m making is that if the manufacturer has that little faith in the protection limits of their product, then how is the required DOT sticker going to add too or reduce anything on the safety issue of wearing a helmet or not.

[Kev m]

I understand, the point I’m making is that if the manufacturer has that little faith in the protection limits of their product, then how is the required DOT sticker going to add too or reduce anything on the safety issue of wearing a helmet or not.

That's nothing to do with little faith.

1. That's how helmets work. They deform with impact, though I generally feel they need to have something in then during the impact for that to work. Then again on the flip side improper handling like placing them on a mirror might have a familiar effect.

2. We live in a highly litigious society where a lawsuit over a helmet could meet lifetime medical care so the stakes are very huge, some of that isn't lack of faith but extreme cya.

[Dilliw]

2. We live in a highly litigious society where a lawsuit over a helmet could meet lifetime medical care so the stakes are very huge, some of that isn't lack of faith but extreme cya.

Someone at the campground made this argument to me and I thought it was odd.  Because my Nolan is the European version it doesn't have the DOT sticker on it and my insurance could deny any head injury claims.  Has there ever been a case like that?   

[chuck peterson]

Uh , er , hmm , well , how long did this take to turn political ?

 Dusty

Lannister, in true service to the court,  came to the rescue in 3x posts...a little faster than usual I'd say..

[rocker59]

DOT helmets are supposed to be self-certified by the manufacturer.  I was one of those naive enough to believe that no one would sell a defective helmet.

Well, looks likes it's 43% fraud.

https://www.rideapart.com/articles/397241/dot-helmet-failure-rate-increases/

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of the failures are with no-name / off-brand 1/2 and 3/4 helmets marketed to the people who mostly don't wear helmets, but keep one for use when in a State which requires it.  The $39 helmets sold in vendor booths at "biker rallies".

[Kev m]

Someone at the campground made this argument to me and I thought it was odd.  Because my Nolan is the European version it doesn't have the DOT sticker on it and my insurance could deny any head injury claims.  Has there ever been a case like that?   

I would think this could be true only if said insurance lists a requirement to wear a DOT approved helmet, no?

[Moparnut72]

I am a former APBA (American Power Boat Assoc) boat racer. I retired last year but the year before they made DOT helmets illegal for boat racing. Deemed that some were unsafe. They required only Snell certified helmets were legal foe competition. I lobbied for ECCE approved helmets to be included as I bvelieve them to be even better. However the powers to be didn't want to revisit the issue. I have read quite a bit about helmet safety ECCE is more concerned with protection from concussions whereas Snell puts more emphasis on penetration. Granted this was a couple of years ago and things may have changed. FWIW I wear a Nolan when riding but my boat racing helmet is a Scorpion, they make reasonably priced Snell approved helmets.
kk

[Ncdan]

There can be several issues of discussion on this subject of DOT certified helmets.
What criteria is involved in DOT certified helmets, what test does it have to comply with.
When is a DOT helmet no longer legal, due to the helmets condition and age.

Bottom line there are no definitive legal answers. My view is wearing a helmet should be a personal choice nationwide and not just in some states.
Regardless of a states laws that I ride through, I always wear a DOT helmet. Will it save my life, maybe or maybe not. I can attest that I have investigated two motorcycle fatalities where EMS removed DOT certified helmets from dead riders. Go figure.

[Moparnut72]

The problem with DOT helmets is that the standards are set by the DOT. Helmets certified to meet these standards are supposedly met by the manufacturer, tested by the manufaturer and certified by the manufacturer. Lots of room for "stretching" the truth. Snell certified helmets are tested by Snell on helmets supplied by the manufacturer. ECCE certified helmets are purchased by the testing agency at retail and certified by them. No room for any underhanded shenigans. It is what it is.
kk

[TimmyTheHog]

For those don't mind FortNine style video, this one is quite on subject...at least for me

https://youtu.be/0BUyp3HX8cY

[LowRyter]

The problem with DOT helmets is that the standards are set by the DOT. Helmets certified to meet these standards are supposedly met by the manufacturer, tested by the manufaturer and certified by the manufacturer. Lots of room for "stretching" the truth. Snell certified helmets are tested by Snell on helmets supplied by the manufacturer. ECCE certified helmets are purchased by the testing agency at retail and certified by them. No room for any underhanded shenigans. It is what it is.
kk

That was my point.  Unfortunately, I never believed that any helmet company would cheat.  My neighbor, Bimmer car track day guy, retired AF Lt Col and retired FAA warned me and he always purchases SNELL.  I hate to eat crow for that guy.  But he's right.

I mean, hell.  Who you gonna trust anymore?  My dang mortgage company was Countrywide, neither my brokerage or credit union would let me send money out of the country to buy a bike, stock market is run by crooks, can anyone figure out their insurance, cable, phone or medical bill?  And now the DOT sticker means isn't worth the sticker it's printed on. 

I AM TIRED OF BEING RIPPED OFF !!!!!!!!!!!!     

[Moparnut72]

I have severalHarley riding buddies. I cringe at the helmets these guys wear. Not a one of them has a full face helmet. Most of them wear those beanies, why bother? I know the law makes them.
kk

[GeorgiaGuzzi]

I have severalHarley riding buddies. I cringe at the helmets these guys wear. Not a one of them has a full face helmet. Most of them wear those beanies, why bother? I know the law makes them.
kk

When I first started riding I had a full face helmet. I was riding thru the countryside and the mother of all locusts splattered all over my shield right in between my eyes! My first thought was “that woulda hurt!” I’ve always worn full face since then.

Now 20 years later I’ve been down three times. 2 of those three times I’ve had significant damage where my face/jaw was. The helmet did it’s job and I still have my stunning looks! I’ll always have a full face.

About DOT, it’s worthless. I only buy snell or ece approved helmets. And for those who think dropping a helmet shouldn’t ruin it, the principal is the same as crumple zones on cars. Once a helmet has been dropped from a height of three or four feet the energy absorption in that spot has been used, so if you High side your bike and land head first on that spot, more energy from the impact will transfer to your body. Not good.

[Motormike]

I remember many years ago, Motorcyclist Magazine (I believe) did an elaborate multi-issue article on DOT vs. Snell helmet safety ratings.   The jist of it was: the Snell standard made helmets shells too rigid, transmitting more shock through the helmet to the wearer.  The DOT standard led to a softer shell, that flexed somewhat, spreading the impact, resulting in less shock to the wearer.  They basically came out and said a DOT was a safer helmet.  Snell issued a long rebuttal. It caused quite a stir as I recall. 

[frozengoose]

They basically came out and said a DOT was a safer helmet.  Snell issued a long rebuttal. It caused quite a stir as I recall. 

Lotta angst over a little sticker!

Most riders didn't wear helmets for close to a hundred years, until they started passing helmet laws. I rode a bicycle for 10-12 years until I was old enough to get a motorbike, then a cycle. Always rode without a helmet, almost nobody else did either, until I moved to Mich. in the early 70's where they had a helmet law. Picked up a used Bell open face cheap, but it had a Snell sticker, from 1962! Owned a series of Bell's since then. never even thought about "sticker shock" until I picked up a Zox "shorty" for an occasional ride and noticed that it only has a DOT sticker. So maybe I should drive a little slower when I wear that one instead of the full-face Bell? IDN, but I'd say just get a helmet from a reputable outfit, avoid Chinese knock-offs, and sleep well at night. Or take the bus, don't need a helmet then!

[Bisbonian]

I remember many years ago, Motorcyclist Magazine (I believe) did an elaborate multi-issue article on DOT vs. Snell helmet safety ratings.   The jist of it was: the Snell standard made helmets shells too rigid, transmitting more shock through the helmet to the wearer.  The DOT standard led to a softer shell, that flexed somewhat, spreading the impact, resulting in less shock to the wearer.  They basically came out and said a DOT was a safer helmet.  Snell issued a long rebuttal. It caused quite a stir as I recall.

Blowing the lid off: https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/MotorcyclistHelmets.html

Supposedly this article led to the firing of Dexter Ford. It was an excellent article at the time and not long after it was published, Snell changed their certification process to be closer to those of the DOT certification. A number of years have passed since then, I have no idea what Snell does now.

[Testarossa]

Most riders didn't wear helmets for close to a hundred years, until they started passing helmet laws.

Until the mid-30s most American "highways" were unpaved, and speeds relatively low. Nonetheless there were plenty of head-injury fatalities. No one took helmet design seriously until after T.E. Lawrence died when he ran his Brough Superior off the road in 1935. One of the brain surgeons who attended did some testing to define what it would take to protect a skull, and came up with the concept of a hard but frangible shell to dissipate impact and a softer inner shell to decelerate the skull. The first standardized hardshell Air Force helmet (P-1) launched in 1947 with a canvas-reinforced phenolic shell. The first fiberglass version (P-4A) didn't arrive until 1957 -- same year the Snell Foundation was created. Before that there was no standard to legislate. National Highway Safety Act of 1966 required that in order to receive highway funds, states would have to require helmets, with immediate pushback from AMA etc. DOT standard didn't come along until 1974 and "enforcement" was purposely made loose after intense lobbying by trade groups. No one should be surprised that cheap helmets are useless. 

I know this stuff because I've done extensive research on the origin of ski helmets, which weren't required in ski racing until after the development of metal skis pushed speeds over 60mph -- around 1960.

[LowRyter]

I remember many years ago, Motorcyclist Magazine (I believe) did an elaborate multi-issue article on DOT vs. Snell helmet safety ratings.   The jist of it was: the Snell standard made helmets shells too rigid, transmitting more shock through the helmet to the wearer.  The DOT standard led to a softer shell, that flexed somewhat, spreading the impact, resulting in less shock to the wearer.  They basically came out and said a DOT was a safer helmet.  Snell issued a long rebuttal. It caused quite a stir as I recall.

Exactly my recollection.  That is one reason I originated this thread.

I think Snell did revise their standards after the article appeared.  The "hard shell" was appropriate for auto racing to prevent shrapnel from penetrating the helmet, they were also fire resistant.  Neither standard is appropriate for motorcycle helmets, since fire protection is unnecessary and the hardness standard is detrimental to rider likely to bounce to the pavement.  The article made the point the softer polycarbonate helmets were safer than the Snell hard fiberglass models.  Of course, fiberglass and carbon fiber can be made at the right strength for motorcycle helmets.

update: I read the subsequent posts and see you guys were a step ahead of me.