Author Topic: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)  (Read 2920 times)

Online Vagrant

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2020, 08:40:44 AM »
I assume the TPS is on top of the injector so the following shouldn't be the issue.
on my 98 EV the TPS was on the bottom. the bike sat on the dealers floor for over a year and gas dripped down through the TPS i even commented about it when I bought it. by 12000 miles it was acting up like what you describe and a new tps fixed it. taking yours off and flushing it out with contact cleaner might solve your problem. on the EV's it was easy to reset them with a digital meter I don't know about the V7.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 08:41:53 AM by Vagrant »
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Online malik

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2020, 02:38:04 PM »
Pointing in the right direction, perhaps. On the 2TB V7's the TPS is on top of the RHS throttle body. Should a new one be needed, (Magneti Marelli PF1C00), they are cheaper from HD - Part # 27629-01A. Also found on some Fiats, Lancias, Alfas, Renaults & Dacias. See the cross reference list in the Files section of the Moto-Guzzi-750@groups.io.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 03:12:27 PM by malik »
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Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2020, 05:39:04 PM »
That's great, Malik!
I love knowing parts compatibility with different applications!
That's the kind of thing that will help keep these things going when they are old!

Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2020, 02:39:11 PM »
Well, here is an interesting update...
Today I pulled the sending unit from the tank on this bike, and found a Mahle steel filter already installed, so that's nice :D
So I kept going and removed the Fuel pressure regulator, and inspected it closely.
It had a teensy bit of corrosion inside, the only corrosion I've found throughout the entire motorcycle at this point. I decided to see if I could free it up, first by trying to push the plunger against the spring with a small punch, and was not strong enough.
So, knowing that I've already ordered a replacement, I put it in my vise and tried to use the vise and a small bolt to squeeze the spring.
No dice! That sucker is seized!
I tried 150psi of air pressure against the inlet with a short length of hose clamped on, and couldn't even get it to bypass then.
So, unless my understanding of how this valve works is completely off base (and it probably isn't, as I am a mechanical engineer by trade), I think I may have just verified my suspicion of this regulator.
The new one will arrive in a week. Wish it would get here sooner! I feel like I'm very close....

I also checked the TPS with my fancy multimeter, and it seems to be working just fine.
It is just a potentiometer, after all  :)
I'll let you guys know what I find once I get my hands on the new regulator!

Thanks so much for your help up to this point! I believe I'll have this bike right pretty soon.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 02:59:00 PM by thechief86 »

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2020, 02:39:11 PM »

Online malik

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2020, 03:59:46 PM »
While you're waiting for that, if you haven't done so already, it might be an idea to grease the drive shaft splines (see the recent thread on the Nevada, it's the same) and change the fork oil - new oil makes a big difference, especially on our marginal suspension, and the chances are that yours may even have come from the factory in 2011. These jobs will make the waiting just fly by. Learning to get the rear wheel back on smoothly is an education in itself.
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Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2020, 05:01:57 PM »
 :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
While you're waiting for that, if you haven't done so already, it might be an idea to grease the drive shaft splines (see the recent thread on the Nevada, it's the same) and change the fork oil - new oil makes a big difference, especially on our marginal suspension, and the chances are that yours may even have come from the factory in 2011. These jobs will make the waiting just fly by. Learning to get the rear wheel back on smoothly is an education in itself.

This would definitely be time well spent. I have some other things to button up on my KLR 650 before a big weekend dual sport trip in a couple of weeks, but I may dive into this stuff once I'm satisfied that I can rely on that bike for the 2,000 or so miles we have planned.

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2020, 03:52:17 PM »
Because the Breva engine has run faultlessly since new in 2004 I have never needed to touch anything.  Consequently, I have never needed to get in to the system or indeed try to understand the workings.

On a 2TB I assume that there only needed to be one regulator and it is basically a common rail system with the amount of fuel controlled by the electronic injectors.  Correct?

If so, then my suspect would be that the electronic injector, for whatever reason, is stuck fully open.  If fuel is running out of the pipe that is one helluva lot of fuel.

Can a multi meter be put in the circuit to see if the injector is receiving a pulse, or a steady voltage that is keeping the injector fully open all the time?

My diagnosis would be a stuck injector.
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Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2020, 07:23:24 PM »
Because the Breva engine has run faultlessly since new in 2004 I have never needed to touch anything.  Consequently, I have never needed to get in to the system or indeed try to understand the workings.

On a 2TB I assume that there only needed to be one regulator and it is basically a common rail system with the amount of fuel controlled by the electronic injectors.  Correct?

If so, then my suspect would be that the electronic injector, for whatever reason, is stuck fully open.  If fuel is running out of the pipe that is one helluva lot of fuel.

Can a multi meter be put in the circuit to see if the injector is receiving a pulse, or a steady voltage that is keeping the injector fully open all the time?

My diagnosis would be a stuck injector.
I've tried 3 different injectors on that cylinder with similar results.
Tonight I got home and found the regulator I ordered in the mailbox. So I put it in, and the bike is doing the exact same thing.
I need to dig out my fuel pressure gauge and plumb it in, I guess, to be sure that is working right.
If so, I'll order a TPS and try it.
From there, I'm out of ideas.
Last resort will be to put it back together like I never messed with it, and take it to the dealer.
From there the old adage will ring true, that the cheapest bikes are always the most expensive.
Dammit. :violent1:

Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2020, 03:41:18 AM »
I just ordered the cables for Guzzidiag.
Hopefully my ancient laptop will boot up after sitting idle for a decade and can run the software. I haven't needed a computer at home since college, been Internet-ing on my phone and at work this whole time.
I'm beginning to get discouraged here.
I've been able to revive pretty much every machine I've ever messed with to a point of reliability, and yet, can't figure out this relatively new motorcycle, even with the help of other Guzzi folks online.
I'm at the point that I'm losing sleep over it now.
I'll order a TPS as well. Would the O2 sensor be a likely failure point as well? I hate just throwing parts at stuff, but at least on this bike, there aren't many parts in the first place, right?

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2020, 04:19:12 AM »
Because the Breva engine has run faultlessly since new in 2004 I have never needed to touch anything.  Consequently, I have never needed to get in to the system or indeed try to understand the workings.

On a 2TB I assume that there only needed to be one regulator and it is basically a common rail system with the amount of fuel controlled by the electronic injectors.  Correct?

If so, then my suspect would be that the electronic injector, for whatever reason, is stuck fully open.  If fuel is running out of the pipe that is one helluva lot of fuel.

Can a multi meter be put in the circuit to see if the injector is receiving a pulse, or a steady voltage that is keeping the injector fully open all the time?

My diagnosis would be a stuck injector.
He ran both injectors into a glass bottle, I assume he compared the results
I had the thought that one ECU output could be shorted out in which case one side would be hugely out of whack

How about one of those series spark checkers to ensure the spark is actually getting across the plug?
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Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2020, 06:53:31 AM »
He ran both injectors into a glass bottle, I assume he compared the results
I had the thought that one ECU output could be shorted out in which case one side would be hugely out of whack

How about one of those series spark checkers to ensure the spark is actually getting across the plug?
Yeah, I have one of those somewhere.
But I really think fuel is the problem. It is just dripping right out if the exhaust at every joint and spraying out of the right pipe when revved.
Funny enough, the check engine light went out and the thing seemed to run a little smoother, but the damn pipe on that side still never even gets warm.
I've ordered the Guzzidiag stuff, and a TPS, but I'm losing faith that I'll figure it out. Should I try ordering another used, but known good ecu?

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2020, 08:59:08 AM »
So I wonder if that's why it only had 373 miles? Could you track down the dealership that sold it new and try to get some info?
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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2020, 09:13:43 AM »
 Just curious , what does the spark plug on the offending side look like ? Is it fouled or just wet ?

 Dusty
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Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2020, 09:39:40 AM »
Just curious , what does the spark plug on the offending side look like ? Is it fouled or just wet ?

 Dusty
Brand new plugs at this point, the left side is wet and blackened.
The non running right side is clean as a whistles and shiny, and dripping wet after trying to run.

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2020, 09:47:24 AM »
Brand new plugs at this point, the left side is wet and blackened.
The non running right side is clean as a whistles and shiny, and dripping wet after trying to run.

 So the offending side is fouled ?

 Is the header pipe on the dead side discolored ?

 Dusty
Do you tango Miss Fisher ?

Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2020, 10:14:29 AM »
So the offending side is fouled ?

 Is the header pipe on the dead side discolored ?

 Dusty
The pipes are evenly heat-colored, which makes me believe it must have run right for most of its short life. I called the dealership where he bought it, but it is so far out of warranty that they want $130 to even look at it, with no guarantee that they can even figure out the problem.

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2020, 10:23:58 AM »
 Do the early V7 models have the same awful stock plug caps as the later models ? I know you replaced these , but the caps are junk .

 Dusty
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Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2020, 10:36:51 AM »
Do the early V7 models have the same awful stock plug caps as the later models ? I know you replaced these , but the caps are junk .

 Dusty
No the older ones have simple boots that screw into the wire and clip onto the plug, more or less just a conventional 90 spark plug boot like you'd see on the distributor end of an aircooled Volkswagen.

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2020, 10:52:23 AM »
 Have you checked the exhaust system for a mouse's nest ?

 Dusty
Do you tango Miss Fisher ?

Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2020, 11:09:11 AM »
Have you checked the exhaust system for a mouse's nest ?

 Dusty
I checked the intake, didn't expect it in the exhaust...

Offline wirespokes

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2020, 11:48:14 AM »
I worked for several months for a friend at an auto repair shop. They had a VW bug come in with a new exhaust system that wasn't running well. It would idle, but not rev up. The car was there for weeks, maybe a month and driving us crazy. Finally we swapped out the muffler and that did it. The car had gone through a deep puddle that evidently knocked a baffle loose. But it wasn't rattling.

When it's running, check to see there's pressure at the muffler outlet. I wouldn't expect a mouse nest to keep it from running - it would blow out after a bit. I'm guessing it's electrical. Just because you see a good spark with plug removed doesn't necessarily mean it sparks under pressure. Don't assume that! It doesn't seem logical compression pressure would make it more difficult to jump a spark, but that is the case. If there's a way to swap components side to side perhaps you could get the problem to move.

Was the bike parked due to this problem? Or is it the result of sitting so long?

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2020, 11:58:36 AM »
I checked the intake, didn't expect it in the exhaust...

 I would most certainly check .

 Dusty
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Offline thechief86

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2020, 11:59:44 AM »
I've swapped the coils and leads from side to side with no change. I really don't think this is a spark problem.
If it was, I promise, I would have been able to achieve some sort of change by now through the process of replacing parts and swapping them side to side, and even running the bike on Ether.
Nothing has given different results other than running on ether, which did actually work fine.
I am confident that spark can be ruled out. I believe I have an electrical problem, but I do not believe it is related to spark in any way. If I'm not getting spark, it is because the plug is being drowned in fuel.
When I rev the bike, raw fuel SPRAYS from the exhaust on both sides. The right pipe is not hot, while the left pipe is expectedly scorching hot.
There are no obstructions in the intake or exhaust, verified by removing the pipes and blowing air through them, as well as feeling the exhaust exiting strongly from both sides, although spraying my hand with gas on both sides.
PO swears the bike ran great within the last month or so, and he didn't realize it didn't until I was on my way to pick it up, so he lowered the price to get it sold anyway.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 12:03:08 PM by thechief86 »

Offline nc43bsa

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2020, 12:44:03 PM »
Disclaimer:  I haven't worked on a Guzzi with FI, but I have worked on many other FI systems.  On the systems I saw, the injector has constant voltage through the ignition switch on one terminal and the ECM grounds the other terminal to trigger the injector.

Try this: 

Take the injectors out of the manifold, leaving them connected to the fuel hoses.  Put them in a position where they can safely spray into a container.  Turn the ignition on (to make the pump run), but don't try to start the engine.  Look for one of the injectors to be continuously spraying and the other one not.  If it is, you have a stuck injector.  Clean it or replace it.

If not, turn the switch off and reconnect the electrical connectors to the injectors.  Turn the switch on as before.  If one of the injector sprays continuously now, then look for a grounded wire between the ECM and the injector that is spraying.

Over the years I have seen several vehicles where one or more cylinders didn't run or fouled plugs because of rodent damage to the wiring harness, usually when the vehicle was parked for an extended length of time.  In this case, the harness could have been damaged before the original owner bought the bike, but it didn't completely short out until shortly (no pun intended) before the bike was parked.

YMMV.
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Offline usedtobefast

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2020, 12:52:16 PM »
First, don't give up!  I think you'll sort it out easier/faster than the dealership (unless it is a great old school Guzzi dealership where they have mechanics that actually know something). 

I would pull off both silencers (aka mufflers or slip ons) and set them up to drain.  The cats are in there, and getting all that raw gas in there is not good. 

Have you re-done your injector in the bottle tests?  Would be interesting to see if right and left side are getting the same spray now.

Typing out loud here ... a bunch of rambling as I think about this ...  :grin:
So the bike could be getting too much fuel and so a normal ignition system just can not burn it all.  So why would a fuel system dump too much fuel?  Seems your new regulator and a fuel pressure test should sort the supply side out.  So injectors will be getting fuel at the right pressure ready for them to use.  Then the ECU tells the injectors when and how long to spray fuel.  A dirty/clogged injector might have a bad spray pattern, but that should not lead to mass quantities of fuel. 

From a bike just sitting around unused, it doesn't seem the ECU, mapping, or TPS, or balance would get messed up.  It does seem like the injectors might get clogged. 

When you did the ether test, are you 100% positive both sides were firing/running properly then? 

The other thing that doesn't make sense ... if both sides are getting way too much fuel, why does one side fire and try to run and the other side seems to do nothing?   That does sound like an ignition or timing problem.  Neither of which should just fail or go bad from sitting around.

The other possibility, one side is getting too much fuel, but is firing and trying to run ... the other side is getting WAY too much fuel and can't do anything with it ... so what issue could cause one side to get significantly more fuel than the other?

And, if you start to consider the seller is not being truthful ... bike started running like crap, he had all sort of issues, he parked it and never got it taken care of, then years later he sold it to you ... how would that change the troubleshooting?

Then I would start thinking bad ECU?  Heck, maybe the guy tried loading a "better" map into the ECU and screwed it up?  Maybe timing is messed up?  TDC sensor messed up?
Maybe it was running a little bad and he tried to make it better by trying a throttle balance adjustment and he messed that all up?

Maybe you've already done this ... but ... if you put in 2 new plugs, repeat the ehter test, check that both cylinders are running, both get equally warm, pull both plugs and see if they look the same ... then it seems that really does mean timing is ok, spark is ok, so 100% of fault is from the injectors and how they are operating. 

And what could that be?
Bad injectors
ECU instructing injectors to spray way too much fuel (but why?)
Too much fuel pressure on input side of injectors
What would a poorly set up throttle balance do?  (I'm not sure with this 2 TB model)  Seems that could send fuel too much/too little at wrong times?

Ok, that's my rambling thoughts.   :grin:

Good luck, don't give up! 
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Offline usedtobefast

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2020, 01:10:20 PM »
Hummm, came across this thread, sounds similar:  https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/help-with-new-v7-special-dies-when-let-to-idle.15776/

So maybe the stock mapping is that crappy? 
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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2020, 01:15:39 PM »
Hummm, came across this thread, sounds similar:  https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/help-with-new-v7-special-dies-when-let-to-idle.15776/

So maybe the stock mapping is that crappy?

 Different issue , and I would bet good money this isn't a mapping problem , or something that can be solved with a power commander .

 Dusty
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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2020, 01:19:47 PM »
Yeah,  The stock map is pretty lean, not rich. 
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Online malik

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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2020, 01:41:21 PM »
When I had some weird idle problems (on the V7C), idle so low that it would stall, or running at 1500rpm & spiking to 2,000 & fouling the plugs with carbon, I did do a whole lot of things to try to fix it, but annoyingly, nothing definitive. But it is working great now. These included - changing the plug caps (LB05F - they are common & cheap), cutting the corroded end off one of the HT leads, replacing the oiled air filter with the stock paper one, adjusting the throttle cables evenly, replacing the oil pressure sensor (which tested intermittent before testing dead), (do note that at each change you make, you should re-set the TPS & auto learning by removing the -Ve battery terminal for some minutes), then loaded Beetle's map for the 15RC - it's free/no charge because he says there's nothing much to do - which turns off the lambda sensor (so when it later broke a wire, I removed it, replacing it with a sumo plug - M18x1.5 - with no noticeable effects), and finally identifying a flat spot in the TPS & replacing that too. It's been running swimmingly ever since. Once you've got Guzzidiag up and running, you can use that to reset the TPS & the self learning, as well as check to see if the ECU manages to pick up any errors. In the middle of all that, there were other things raising their ugly heads, notably an ignition switch with melted terminals inside (for those that have to replace the ignition, do note that the lock set is only maginally more expensive than the switch alone, and you end up with only one key to manage). I haven't had any problems with the injectors to date (touch wood), but this bike has only done 220,000km, although the fuel lines (and the pump) were changed along with the metal 21L tank.

The stock map for the 15RC is good (bloody fantastic, compared to the 1TB's MUIG3) and self learns changes (such as new mufflers & headers) a treat.

These bikes do respond well to a throttle body balance, but the bike needs to be running reasonably before you can even go there. The sacred screw hasn't been touched, has it? It still has its blobs of yellow paint on it? If molested, it's all up for grabs - I've only heard of one chap who can get close to the factory's micro setting.

I've the idea that the ECU sets the RH cylinder, and copies those to the LHS with an appropriate fudge factor. So if you get the RHS working properly, the LHS should follow.
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Re: 2011 V7 Classic (Barn Find!)
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2020, 02:05:24 PM »
Is it possible something is making the computer see too lean of a mixture and the ECU is trying to riches it up to make it right?

If you disconnect the oxygen sensor, will that take that adjustment out and will the bike then run on a predetermined map?

Have you checked for a vacuum leak? Let's face it, normal stuff isn't working.

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