Author Topic: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.  (Read 903 times)

Offline Tom H

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Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« on: January 07, 2020, 07:22:26 PM »
I'm trying to understand the steering stop range of motion and why one bike has less range than another.

I understand that the range is limited by clearance issues, like tank clearance and the like. Is there a handling issue, such as a tank slapper that would need a narrower range?

My Loops can make a U turn at an intersection on a road with two lanes each way with a turn lane. They just need one lane with the bike pretty much upright. My EVT needs to go into one more lane to make the same upright U turn. My HD can almost do one lane, not quite as tight as my Loops.

I ask this because my EVT seems to need to be at full steering lock/stop at times to park/turn around/ maneuver. I'm thinking of cutting the stops on either the frame or the lower triple clamp to make it turn sharper in an upright situation. Also, one time I dropped the bike because I hit the lock, I need a bit more turn (or throttle which I couldn't do due to space) to keep it from falling over.

Is there a good reason to not cut the stops????

Thank you,
Tom

2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline normzone

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 10:34:37 PM »
Madness ... You must resist.

Frame geometry and tire size are factors - try wearing thinner pants so your center of gravity is lower.
Could be the timing chain or the kickstand spring - the suggestion is bunkum

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 12:20:55 AM »
I'm sure the bike was designed with the maximum turning taken into consideration. Physical constraints as you said - forks/tank, fairing/handlebars, etc. Snip the stops and you're asking for trouble.

No, not tank slappers - that's a completely different matter.

However, there is a way to turn a bike quicker with limited lock to lock movement. While sitting upright on the bike, turn the bars and give it throttle. You'd be surprised how tight it's possible to turn with that technique.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 09:31:41 AM by wirespokes »

Offline Two Checks

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 06:49:10 AM »
Boy did the OP bring back a memory.
I shuttled bikes from the hotel to the STL BMW dealer at the 07 (?) Iron Butt.
One of the bikes I rode was a BMW K1200LT. When I got back to the hotel lot I went to make a hard left into a parking spot as I would on the Cal III. Nope! I hit the stop and it wouldn't turn any more and I had it leaned over but we were going to fall. I quickly straightened it and stopped.
A couple guys happened to see it and complimented me on my quick reaction.
I was still shaking.
1990 Cal III f/f  "Il Duce' III"
1987 1000 SPII "Il Duce' II"

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 06:49:10 AM »

Online John A

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 09:29:23 AM »
I was considering a Triumph Rocket 3 but I was so struck by the limited steering that I didnít even want to ride it.  It made me think that with all that power and weight a rider might want to keep it on the straight and narrow at all times.
John
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The only reason for not breaking parts is if your not making enough power.

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2020, 09:37:02 AM »
The BMW RS is that way - limited steering movement due to the bars fouling the fairing and fairing mounts. With bikes like that it's easy to drop them when they don't turn as quickly as expected. I rode mine four years as my only transport in Los Angeles. At first it took a parking lot to turn around, but after a while I could do it in my own lane.

Offline Tom H

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2020, 11:01:31 AM »
Two Checks,

Your situation was much like what happened to me, except I didn't have enough room to give some gas and straighten up.

I know there are ways to turn quicker. With my Loops, I feel I can almost plant my foot on the ground and pivot on it. My EVT no.

I will ask this question again because I may not have asked it clearly before. Other than any clearance issues, is there a good reason not to trim the stops a little? IS there a safety issue??

BTW: when I got the EVT for some reason the stop tab on the frame was bent back so that it didn't make contact with the stops on the triple clamp. The only thing keeping the bars from hitting the tank was the steering damper. Maybe a PO hated the narrow range as well??

Thank you all so far!!
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline Two Checks

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2020, 11:12:53 AM »
IMO I don't THINK there would be a problem. Some bikes have indentations in the gas tank for handlebar clearance at full lock.
I COULD be wrong but I dunno.


On that BMW I was lucky, I didn't have to give it any gas. I straightened it out and it stood up on its own all I had to do was stop. And take the seat out of my hiney.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 11:15:03 AM by Two Checks »
1990 Cal III f/f  "Il Duce' III"
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Offline Rick4003

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2020, 12:28:14 PM »
I cut down the steering stops on mine as there was a mile between the tank and the fork. The limited steering lock was very annoying. Haven't had any trouble by trimming the stops. As long as nothing hits (forkleg or handlebar to tank usually) then I can't see a reason why it would be a problem. The tighter turning radius makes it a lot easier to maneuver around in the workshop and in parking lots. 

Make sure your hands doesn't get caught between the tank and the handlebars at full stop though.
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Offline Andy1

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2020, 12:40:26 PM »
Having too narrow a lock range is dangerous as as soon as you hit the stop you loose balance.  I tweaked the locks on my Norge to make the travel each way the same - it only takes a mm or two at the the stops to make quite a big difference.  Obviously check tank / fairings etc not hit and controls remain all free
AndyB

Offline keener

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2020, 05:19:09 PM »
 leave everything alone and learn to ride the motorcycle well within its capacities ... some can turn tight and others not so much ..

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Online John A

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2020, 09:01:57 PM »
Any thoughts about how you would do it?  I think I would grind the steel lug.  I usually message that lug anyway, bending it towards the base of the tree so itís less likely to skip over the stops.
John
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Online Huzo

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2020, 09:47:09 PM »
leave everything alone and learn to ride the motorcycle well within its capacities ... some can turn tight and others not so much ..
I was going to say the same thing, I agree with you completely.
Half the fun I reckon.

Online John A

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2020, 10:20:28 PM »
You could try raising the tubes up,  I think 3/4Ē is the max. Iíd go 1/2Ē to start,  keeping watch for anything hitting.
John
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The only reason for not breaking parts is if your not making enough power.

Offline Tom H

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2020, 12:02:05 AM »
Since it seems that there is no "safety/handling" reason to keep it as is, I'll have to decide if I want to take a bit off the stop on the frame or the lower triple tree.

If I ever needed to go back to stock, the frame stop would probably need to be welded. Most vehicles with computers IIRR should not be welded on without proper precautions. I would guess removing the computer and any other sensitive electronics. If I do the lower triple, I could just replace the part. I will have to think about this.

Thank you all again!!
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline pressureangle

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2020, 08:04:36 AM »
Trimming the stops is a no-brainer. They do absolutely nothing until you touch them. Racing frames quite often have adjustable stops.
I would give careful consideration to where you remove material, and how; if you're carving the lower triple tree, I imagine it's possible to compromise the strength if you go too far.
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Offline Tom H

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2020, 10:18:01 AM »
You bring up adjustable stops on racing bikes. Why would they want the stops adjustable? What advantage other than clearance issues would a narrow range have?

Tom
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 10:18:59 AM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
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1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Online Moto Vita

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2020, 11:12:49 AM »
You bring up adjustable stops on racing bikes. Why would they want the stops adjustable? What advantage other than clearance issues would a narrow range have?

Tom

 It allows for changing tanks, handlebars etc.

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2020, 11:14:28 AM »
I was going to say the same thing, I agree with you completely.
Half the fun I reckon.

 Wait a minute, you of all people, recommend leaving a motorcycle alone and riding it the way it is!!! :copcar:

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2020, 01:13:21 PM »
Here's the way BMW did it back in the 70s. The steering stop was a square chunk of steel with a horizontal hole through the middle. If the steering needed to be limited, a bolt with a nut was fitted. By adding washers or grinding, the stop point could be adjusted.

But I wouldn't muck around with the stops if it meant grinding. It's easy enough turning sharply once the technique is mastered.

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2020, 03:08:44 AM »
I ground a bit of each side of the tabs on the lower triple tree. Yes okay, if I crash really hard against something, maybe the stop is weakened enough to break it off. But with the force that would take, the rest of the bike is toast anyway.

I cannot get the idea that you must at all time leave everything stock and just live with the annoyance of something that is very easy to fix. If you think every model that comes out of any manufacturer is trimmed to perfection you are wrong. The manufacturer is running a business and they just need to make the bikes good enough to sell. Any trimming that is not needed to sell the bike or live up to regulations is not done. This is especially true with small scale companies like Moto Guzzi. Every heard about a parts bin special? Connecting rods on the early V35-v50 as an example.

If it makes you like your bike better, modify it as much as you like.
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Offline bigbikerrick

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2020, 12:18:34 PM »
I have a fabricator/welder buddy that  lately does alot of HD bagger conversions into big front wheel, extended bags type, and he does mild modifications to frame stops as needed, always has, for many years, on cafe bikes, and everything in between. I have also seen him add weld to steering stops to make them bigger. If you have the clearance, to grind a bit off to make it turn tighter, without any components hitting I would not hesitate, but thats just me. I like to tinker/experiment/modify.
  Just be reasonable in what and where you remove material, and you will be ok.
 I know what you mean about the loopframes handling at slow speeds. The way the handlebars mount , where they extend way back from the top of the triple trees must have something to do with it, all I know is my 73 can dance like a ballerina at low speeds. Its no wonder cops liked them!
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2020, 11:21:52 PM »
I canít answer the OPís question.   

My comment is just that the limited steering lock on my 1996 Ducati 900SS was quite shocking compared to my other bikes, including a Guzzi small block.

You get used to it.   But yeah.  It will really get your attention.   

I too have wondered why I canít just file the steering lock stops back to increase clearance
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 11:45:34 PM by SmithSwede »
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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 11:58:46 PM »
Wait a minute, you of all people, recommend leaving a motorcycle alone and riding it the way it is!!! :copcar:
I actually thought that when I was posting, does seem hypocritical...
Canít defend it.
Why the cop car ?

Offline Tom H

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2020, 12:02:30 AM »
I thank you all for your responses. I'm still thinking about cutting the stops a bit. I wish they were just adjustable.

It does seem that there is not a good reason not to trim them a bit as far as safety and handling issue goes. Only issue would be clearance.

AS bigbikerrick and smithswede mentioned, the Loops just turn and turn anywhere you want them to go. My HD is almost that good. The EVT not so much.

Yes, if I want to I can lean the EVT into a tight U turn. But.... lets say I hit some water on a big white line crosswalk and dump the bike trying to make that tight U turn. The last time I dropped it, I HAD to have help picking it up quickly (I think given enough time to work out a solution, I'm pretty sure I could have picked it up myself. Even if I had to resort to removing all weigh including the tank). So I would rather be able make the tight U turn, like my Loops, with the bike in basically an upright position.

Also, where I park the bike I pull in on grass and make a tight turn coming to a stop so that I can make a 3 point turn. My Loops never make me worry. The EVT I'm on the stop and feel that if I get just a tad off balance/slip a foot on wet grass at the wrong time, it's going over.

Maybe it all comes down to being afraid that I may not be able to "quickly easily" pick it back up. Maybe the EVT is just more top heavy than my other bikes?

Tom
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 12:15:00 AM by Tom H »
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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2020, 12:03:07 AM »
Madness ... You must resist.

Frame geometry and tire size are factors - try wearing thinner pants so your center of gravity is lower.
Funny thing that.
The height of the centre of mass above the point of support wonít change the lean angle.
If you strap 2 bags of cement to your tank, youíll still have the same angle of lean for a given radius and speed.
Same thing if you sit someone on your shoulders...(Wonít change..)

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2020, 11:38:35 AM »
Iím not being sarcasticójust trying to help in case you donít know.    :smiley:

There is a technique to righting a fallen motorcycle.   Turn handlebars to the low side.  Put your *back* to the bike and sorta ďsitĒ on the seat with your knees bent.  You are looking away from the bike now, not over it.  Grab the low side handlebar grip in one hand, and some frame part in the other hand.  Then lift bike up by pushing backwards with your knees.

There are videos of this on line. 

I rode for decades not knowing this technique until somebody showed me
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Offline Groover

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2020, 12:25:16 PM »
I think the rake of the bike has something to do with the turn radius as well.


The stop on my G5 had a hairline crack in it when i got it, so before powder coating it I asked someone to weld the crack, they did, then they said "looks good, made it nice a clean for you". It was no charge work done by a real shop so I was grateful and all, but when they cleaned it up they shaved maybe 1 mm or 2 off each sides of the frame tab, then my fork tubes hit the tank. I built the stopper back up, and all is good now. Point is, if doing this, shave just a tiny bit at a time as it makes a big different at the tank/bars area (someone else mentioned this too)

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Offline Tom H

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Re: Trying to understand Steering Stop/Lock Range.
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2020, 06:32:28 PM »
Smithswede,

I have watched the vids on various ways to pick a bike up including the small woman and a Harley dresser. I think that if the back to the bike didn't work, turning the low side handlebar outward and lifting only with the bar might work? Or just bend the crud out of the bar.

My friend has offered to get with me and set the bike on It's side so I can try various ways to pick it up. I should take him up on it.

I still think that it is a top heavy bike for a touring bike.
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

 

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