speedo gear set for 96 Cali 1100

[philwarner]

My 96 Cali 1100 apparently has a 7/33 rear gearing and speedometer is reading too high (reads 80 at an actual 60).
Folks say I need a 5/11 speedometer gear set to correct the speedometer and odometer errors.

The Cal 1100/1100i parts manual lists:
29  Bevel gear 8/33    30 35 46 00   (on PG 18 )
31  Lay Shaft 5/11     14 76 25 10  (on PG 32)
32  pinion         12 76 33 00
33  Ring gear    14 76 61 10

The California III 1000 parts manual lists:
29  Bevel Gear  Z=7/33  GU 17354650 
31  Speedometer gear Set  Z5/11-----GU 14762510
32  Pinion Z5-----GU 12763300
33  Chain ring Z11-----GU 14766110

So the parts manuals list the same Speedometer gear set for both 7/33 and 8/33 final drive gear ratios, but a listing on eBay for 1476 2510 speedo gear set says for use with 8-35, 8-37, AND 7-33 rear drive gears and does not list 8/33

So did my 96 Cali come with a different speedo gear set than is listed in the parts catalog?

Wayne says "I have changed the output gear as you are doing, and not changed the internal worm gear. I'm not sure they are matched."

Jeffrey Brannen says about switching to 7/33 rear gearing:  If you want a reasonably accurate speedo, you need to change the 5/10 speedo gear set out for a 5/11 set (14762510). You ONLY need to change the 10 tooth gear for the 11 tooth.

So.....Can I swap a 10 tooth speedometer pinion gear (assuming that is what I have now) for an 11 without changing the worm gear?  If so I wonder why the pinions are not sold separately.

[guzzisteve]

Be sure of what you have 1st, take off fill cap on rear drive and count the teeth looking down the hole.
I change as a set, both. Then there will not be ground up metal in your trans. If you pull the pinion up & out, don't loose the washer on the ledge it rides in.

[philwarner]

Be sure of what you have 1st, take off fill cap on rear drive and count the teeth looking down the hole.
I change as a set, both. Then there will not be ground up metal in your trans. If you pull the pinion up & out, don't loose the washer on the ledge it rides in.

Thanks for the suggestion, Steve.  Don't know why I didn't think of it before.

   Fortunately I do have an inspection camera and the drive pinion does have unique marks on the ends of two of the teeth so I could count them as I turned the rear wheel until a mark came around again.  It is definitely a 7 tooth pinion gear.  The hardest part was getting the Guzzi up on the center stand.

   So are you saying the speedo gears must be changed as a set?  That's a more involved undertaking than just the speedo pinion gear so I might just have to live with the over eager speedo unless another need arises for rear end work.

[philwarner]

Looking at some other parts catalogs,

California special sport parts catalog says:
29 Bevel gear 8/33-----GU30354602
13 Odometer gear 5/10-----GU28762540
14 Gear -----GU28763340
15 Chain ring Z11-----GU14766110

It lists the same “Chain ring” for 8/33 as the California III 1000 parts catalog does for 7/33 but a different pinion gear; 28763340  VS  12763300.  Might this be a 10 tooth pinion gear?    I wonder if the parts catalogs have errors or if the "Chain Ring" worm gear is the same for both 7/33 and 8/33 gear ratios and for the 10 tooth and 11 tooth pinions.   Perhaps Guzzi designed the 10 tooth gear to fit with the existing worm gear for the 7/33 drive?

[philwarner]

No confirmations yet on the 10 tooth to 11 tooth swap.  I tried emailing Jeff Brannen but it bounced, so I am going to have to trust his statement that "You ONLY need to change the 10 tooth gear for the 11 tooth" and order the $38 5/11 set from India.  Hope this all works out.

BTW, this is from a report Jeff had commissioned on alternate gearing for his Stone.
The full report covered a number of choices but this excerpt is regarding the 8/33 VS 7/33 gearing:

Gearing Guru  Performance Modeling Gearing Recommendation For
Jeffrey Brannen 12-07-04 Vehicle: 2002 Moto Guzzi California Stone – modified engine

33/8 Gearing (Stock)
RPM at 60 mph (want to keep this to a sensible rpm): 3013 (pretty low, even for this low rpm engine)
HP @ 60 mph (Horsepower available in top gear at 60 mph - without a downshift): 32 (not bad)
Top speed: 124,  RPM at top speed 6227  (measure of how ideally the bike is geared for top speed specifically)
RPM at 80 MPH 4018 (ridiculously low for this engine)
Crawl speed (Lowest speed in 1st gear without engine discomfort – let’s you avoid using clutch slipping): 16

33/7 Gearing 
THIS is the best option I think, for someone who rarely goes really fast on the highway.
RPM at 60 mph: 3444 (This is getting towards respectable!)
HP @ 60 mph: 36 (12.5% better than stock, and comparable to other big bore bikes)
Quarter Mile Sec: 12.79 (This is a fabulous 0.42 sec faster than stock. That’s HUGE)
Top speed: 119 (loss of 5 mph)
Avg HP avail 0 – 100 mph: 53
RPM at 80 MPH: 4591 (still ridiculously low for your needs, but acceptable)
Crawl speed: 14 (THIS is GOOD!)
HP available at different speeds in top gear: Now 54 vs 43 hp at 80 mph – 26% better than stock!

I think I am glad that some PO went to the expense of changing my 96 Cali to 7/33

[Loop Tonti EV]

When I changed my 01 EV to 7/33 I only changed the speedo pinion from a 10 to an 11. I since then installed a VDO electronic speedo. You must be careful of the washer on the bottom of the pinion.

[philwarner]

When I changed my 01 EV to 7/33 I only changed the speedo pinion from a 10 to an 11. I since then installed a VDO electronic speedo. You must be careful of the washer on the bottom of the pinion.

OK, thanks.  You are the third to say I can just change the pinion so third time is the charm.  The set I ordered is coming from India so it may take awhile and I won't pull mine until I have the 11 tooth in hand, and I'll watch out for the bottom washer.  Makes me wonder why no one sells just the pinion gear.

[Wayne Orwig]

OK, thanks.  You are the third to say I can just change the pinion so third time is the charm.  The set I ordered is coming from India so it may take awhile and I won't pull mine until I have the 11 tooth in hand, and I'll watch out for the bottom washer.  Makes me wonder why no one sells just the pinion gear.

Are you sure you have a 10 tooth now?

[philwarner]

Are you sure you have a 10 tooth now?

I haven't taken it out, Wayne, but everything I read says the bike originally came with 8/33 gearing and was changed to 7/33 gearing (verified by counting the teeth on the final drive pinion) and the speedometer reads 80 MPH at 60 MPH and the odometer reads high also, so I think it is a safe assumption that it still has a 10 tooth pinion.  I may be surprised when I do take it out, though; this bike has had a number of changes made to it before my time.

I did ask the sBay seller if I could buy just the 11 tooth pinion, but they replied "No sir...we can sell loose as our set will get disturbed ...".  I think they meant they can't sell loose, so I'll end up with a 5-10 set left over when I make the switch.

[Wayne Orwig]

I haven't taken it out, Wayne, but everything I read says the bike originally came with 8/33 gearing and was changed to 7/33 gearing (verified by counting the teeth on the final drive pinion) and the speedometer reads 80 MPH at 60 MPH and the odometer reads high also, so I think it is a safe assumption that it still has a 10 tooth pinion.  I may be surprised when I do take it out, though; this bike has had a number of changes made to it before my time.

As in, my 2004 EV came stock with a 9 tooth, and I switched to a 10 tooth.
But, I think that is an ITI speedometer difference, versus your Vaglia speedometer. So you may have a 10 and need to go to 11.

Maybe. Not that hard to pull and inspect. Just get a good light and mirror to make sure the washer (IF you have one) stays in place.

[philwarner]

As in, my 2004 EV came stock with a 9 tooth, and I switched to a 10 tooth.
But, I think that is an ITI speedometer difference, versus your Vaglia speedometer. So you may have a 10 and need to go to 11.

Maybe. Not that hard to pull and inspect. Just get a good light and mirror to make sure the washer (IF you have one) stays in place.

Well now you've got me thinking, Wayne.  Would Guzzi have compensated for the change from 7/33 to 8/33 gear ratio inside the speedo/odo instead of changing the gear at the cable end?  I've not heard anyone suggest that, but maybe I should pull the speedo pinion and count teeth while My Cali is on the center stand and it is still raining outside.  I'll try that tomorrow just to be sure.

[philwarner]

That is close quarters around the speedo gears, and the cable end was pretty darn tight, but I got it off and the pinion gear out - definitely 10 teeth.  The wear pattern is only 1/16 inch wide dead in the middle of the gear - interesting.

Now to go fishing for the bottom washer, or maybe I should just put the pinion back and hope the bottom washer stayed put?





Update:
  I used my inspection camera from above the frame to take a peak for the bottom washer and it appeared to be still in place so I used my small magnetic retriever from above to go into the hole and successfully take out the bottom washer.  Fortunately the case is aluminum so only the washer is attracted to the magnet.
   The bottom washer is 0.041” thick and the top washer is 0.039” thick.  The top washer has wear rings on both sides from the top of the gear section and the bottom of the gear holder; the bottom washer has no wear rings at all.  I think I’ll find a plug for the speedo drive hole and leave this assembly out until the new gear set comes and then use only the new pinion gear from that set, assuming it checks the same in diameters and lengths.  This is a pretty robust little gear set with oilite bearing inside a steel housing – impressive.

[philwarner]

I received this notice yesterday that got me thinking about my 96 Cali's speedo gear again.

A topic you are watching has been removed by Antietam Classic Cycle.
Topic removed: wanted - 11 tooth speedo pinion for 96 Moto Guzzi Cali 1100

 Perhaps this was in the classified section?

  Anyhow, as an update I did finally receive my 11 tooth speedo gear set from India and installed the 11 tooth pinion in June of this year and now my speedo reads 10 MPH too high instead of 20 MPH too high.   Is there such a thing as a 12 tooth speedo pinion gear?  Or is 10 MPG too high the norm for this vintage of Cali speedometer?

[andrewhush]

Hi Phil warner. I am in the process of changing my 1998 cali ev sidecar rig from 8/33 rear drive to 7/37. Nearly finished a small gearbox to slow down the speedo cable input by 15/17 x 15/17 to compensate when I discovered that the angled drive into the standard speedo steps up by 8:7. If you have the same setup, you could try removing the angled drive and instead drive the speedo directly with the cable. This should bring 20 mph per 1000 revs in top gear down to 17.5 mph.

Hope this helps and is not too late!

[philwarner]

Hi Phil warner. I am in the process of changing my 1998 cali ev sidecar rig from 8/33 rear drive to 7/37. Nearly finished a small gearbox to slow down the speedo cable input by 15/17 x 15/17 to compensate when I discovered that the angled drive into the standard speedo steps up buy 8:7. If you have the same setup, you could try removing the angled drive and instead drive the speedo directly with the cable. This should bring 20 mph per 1000 revs in top gear down to 17.5 mph.  Hope this helps and is not too late! 

Thanks Andrew for that information.  I did not know there was an angled drive that changes the ratio.  I looked again at the parts list and there it is.  I'll have to check this out to see if I can eliminate the angled drive.  My speedo with the 11 tooth pinion gear reads 60 MPH at an actual 50 MPH and 60 X 7/8 would be 52.5 MPH - close enough.  I would never have thought that an angle drive would change the ratio, but perhaps that was how Guzzi compensated for the different drive ratios.  I wonder if the original 7/33 bikes had that angle drive of if they have a straight cable to their speedos.  Thanks again.

[philwarner]

I just tool photos of the back of the speedo in my bike shed (too much snow to get it out right now) and it looks like there has been some modification to the case where the cable enters.  Anyone know if the case just slides off the bezel and how the bezel/case attaches to the dash?  I didn't find anything about this in the manual and I will probably have to remove the H&H fairing to get at it when the weather improves.

BTW, since this thread I bought and installed an 11 tooth pinion at the tranny case and it worked with the original worm gear and made the speedometer indication go from 80 at 60 to around 70 at 60.  I am hoping I do find an angle drive in there which I can eliminate and get it closer to actual speed.

[andrewhush]

Hi,

The small rusty allen head bolt is one of two that pull the cover up towards the dash and pull the speedo case down through the dash holding everything secure. It looks as is a previous owner has been unable to remove the rusty one and broken part of the case away instead to let them get the case off. If you remove the other one the case will slide down a bit. If you then squirt some wd40 around the rubber seal (use a small screwdrive to lift the seal to let the wd40 penetrate right around until the speedo can slide upwards. Once you do this it is much easier to undo the knurled nut retaining the speedo cable. I was doing just this last night on my bike! The angled drive is retained with two small bolts and a semi-circular retaining clip. Once these are off the angled drive can be pulled off. Watch out for one part of the worm drive disappearing across the garage. The two bolts need to be replaced to retain the works inside the case but check their length as they look like they would bottom out if you omit the clip. On mine the loose worm had 7 teeth and the driving worm has 8.

Best of luck

Andrew

[andrewhush]

Oops, just realised yours is an 1100 not an ev which has a different dash arrangement. Your pods are fixed from the side but I think the cases are still held on the same way with two small allen bolts.

[philwarner]

Hi,

The small rusty allen head bolt is one of two that pull the cover up towards the dash and pull the speedo case down through the dash holding everything secure. It looks as is a previous owner has been unable to remove the rusty one and broken part of the case away instead to let them get the case off. If you remove the other one the case will slide down a bit. If you then squirt some wd40 around the rubber seal (use a small screwdrive to lift the seal to let the wd40 penetrate right around until the speedo can slide upwards. Once you do this it is much easier to undo the knurled nut retaining the speedo cable. I was doing just this last night on my bike! The angled drive is retained with two small bolts and a semi-circular retaining clip. Once these are off the angled drive can be pulled off. Watch out for one part of the worm drive disappearing across the garage. The two bolts need to be replaced to retain the works inside the case but check their length as they look like they would bottom out if you omit the clip. On mine the loose worm had 7 teeth and the driving worm has 8.

Best of luck

Andrew

Thanks again, Andrew.  I'll go spray some liquid wrench on those allen screws now and hope to get time to take things apart in a day or two.

I found these photos in another thread by MedicAndy looking for an angle drive for a 1996 1100 Sport speedometer and it appears the driving end of the cable is the usual male square but the speedo drive is a male blade and the angle drive is a female on both ends.  It would appear I would need some kind of female/female adapter to drive the speedo directly from the cable and a way to hold the cable end in place since the speedo in these photos is not threaded for the cable end ring but uses a U shaped plate to hold the angle drive.  Are these photos similar to our speedo setup?










.

[Wayne Orwig]

Your time and money is likely better spent switching to a good speedometer from Speedhut.

[andrewhush]

Philwarner,
Yes, mine is exactly the same as those pics. I forgot to mention the two different end types. An adapter could be made using a short length of metal tube crimped at each end to suit the two different shapes and epoxied onto the speedo one. Are your two cogs 8 and 7 teeth?

[philwarner]

Philwarner,
Yes, mine is exactly the same as those pics. I forgot to mention the two different end types. An adapter could be made using a short length of metal tube crimped at each end to suit the two different shapes and epoxied onto the speedo one. Are your two cogs 8 and 7 teeth?

  I have not taken the angle drive out yet so I don't know.  I would expect it to be stock if that is 8 and 7, but my bike has had a number of non-stock changes in its past so that is pure conjecture on my part.

  My Cali has a 7 tooth drive pinion (verified with an inspection camera) and I assume a 33 tooth ring gear but have not counted its teeth.  It came with de-coupled brakes, a non-stock rear brake pedal, hydraulic clutch linkage, stainless fenders, Harley tail light, K & N air filters, pulsing brake light, LED headlight, pulsing driving lights (pulse activated by on-off-on-off-on sequence of a switch on the left bar), H & H fairing, and a Tom Simmons custom seat.  I've added aftermarket "Harley type" grips (the small stock grips put my hands to sleep), lighter carb springs, low fuel sensor, trip odometer reset knob, small induction tachometer, 11 tooth speedo cable drive pinion, and a little breather/filter on the end of the loose oil separator hose.

[andrewhush]

Hi again. Very sorry but I have dropped a bollock here. My angle drive is in fact 7 to 7, I.e. direct not 8 to 7 as stated earlier. I put some red ink on one tooth and proceeded to start and finish on the mark getting 8! One a positive note I have counted the input shaft turns on my m.p.h. speedo and it is about 1600 turns per mile. This is the same ration as 1000 turns per km on the k.p.h. speedos and why both kph and mph bikes have the same 5 to 10 tooth (or 11) speedo cable drive gears at the gearbox end. Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase!

Andrew

[philwarner]

Hi again. Very sorry but I have dropped a bollock here. My angle drive is in fact 7 to 7, I.e. direct not 8 to 7 as stated earlier. I put some red ink on one tooth and proceeded to start and finish on the mark getting 8! One a positive note I have counted the input shaft turns on my m.p.h. speedo and it is about 1600 turns per mile. This is the same ration as 1000 turns per km on the k.p.h. speedos and why both kph and mph bikes have the same 5 to 10 tooth (or 11) speedo cable drive gears at the gearbox end. Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase!

Andrew

Thanks for the update, Andrew.  I am imagining you counting 1600 turns and watching it tick over one mile while singing 99 bottles of beer on the wall.  Did you really count 1600 turns?  Now that's dedication.

I had not tried to take the angle drive out of mine yet, so no harm done.  I've also not yet risked trying to reposition the needle; I just mentally subtract 10 MPG from the speedo reading and judge speed by the traffic around me.  Been too cold lately to even do that, but I hear that Spring will come eventually regardless of - and politics and am looking forward to that.

[andrewhush]

Hi,

Not quite! I used an old fashioned hand drill (56 big cog, 15 little cog) and a short length of rubber tube to drive the speedo spindle. 43 turns of the handle becomes 160 to move 1/10th of a mile. However I did quite a few sets of 43 just to make sure. I tried it again with the angle drive in place and got the same result and so discovered my earlier blunder!