Bread Thread

[80CX100]

Hey Cliffrod,     Thank you so much for sharing that information, I'll be filing all of this and it will be my "go to" baking reference 

      I wasn't aware of the relationship between biscuits and dumplings, and now at least, I have an idea what all those different types of flours are about.     

      I just made a huge pot roast with dumplings yesterday, so it will be a while before I do up another batch, but I'll definitely incorporate some of your ideas and guidance going forward.

      In the interest of managing my food cupboards and kitchen, if possible, I like to use ingredients that I can do many things with, I'd appreciate your thoughts on some of the following.

      First, I was shocked you never mentioned eggs! I think I've thrown an egg in every dumpling I've ever made; have I been wasting my eggs all this time for no reason,lol?

      I like your idea of keeping it simple, if I understand correctly, when my bag of AP flour & baking powder are finished, a bag of good SR flour is all I need and I'm good to go?

      I manage my pantry with big glass jars, would 2L glass pickle jars be suitable storage for SR flour or would it be light sensitive?

      I normally have 10% cream and canned evaporated milk on hand, which would be closest to Buttermilk? I have thrown a cup of yogurt in on occasion.

      I love your idea of the Parmesan cheese,  and the fresh spices. 

      I use ground up dry Rosemary and Summer Savory, any other recommendations on spices?

      I never have lard or margarine on hand;I have butter on hand, but it's not something I normally use, should I?

      I use Olive oil, but I could start saving my bacon drippings if it would be a better substitute for lard.

      I know it's a regional thing, but grits & cornmeal are not things I'm real familiar with, I can see the cornmeal adding a nice flavorful touch at the end. I usually just add my potatoes a bit early for the starch, and sometimes add a little oatmeal at the end, I find it it does nice things to a broth.

      I just replaced my cook top, repairing my oven is next on the to do list; when it's up and running, the first thing going in it, will be my first ever batch of savory biscuits!     

     Thank you very much

     Kelly

     

[tris]

Cheers Cliffrod - that is a true tour de force - thank you

If I can just get some flour and yeast I'd be cooking with gas but the shelves are bare here at the moment

Its starting to recover though so I'll keep my eyes peeled

[Lannis]

Wow.   What a lot of good info to incorporate into my biscuit-making.

No matter how hard I try, I can't use standard ingredients, and make my biscuits come out tall and fluffy like even KFC or Biscuitville biscuits.    But I've got a few different things to try now!

Just a detail note ... Whereas pure oils and lard are 100% fat, hydrogenated vegetable shortening is about 70%, and "real" butter is about 80% fat, I think ....

Lannis

[cliffrod]

Hey Cliffrod,     Thank you so much for sharing that information, I'll be filing all of this and it will be my "go to" baking reference 

      I wasn't aware of the relationship between biscuits and dumplings, and now at least, I have an idea what all those different types of flours are about.     

there are lots of variations, but the are similarities because of the shortened aspect of the dough.  Yorkshire Pudding using the rendered fat from the roast beef is similar.  They aren't formal dumplings or biscuits, but are close relatives.

      I just made a huge pot roast with dumplings yesterday, so it will be a while before I do up another batch, but I'll definitely incorporate some of your ideas and guidance going forward.

      In the interest of managing my food cupboards and kitchen, if possible, I like to use ingredients that I can do many things with, I'd appreciate your thoughts on some of the following.

      First, I was shocked you never mentioned eggs! I think I've thrown an egg in every dumpling I've ever made; have I been wasting my eggs all this time for no reason,lol?

eggs add different proteins plus fat plus water. 

Left whole and unbeaten, they are more likely to interfere with development of gluten structure.  You'll have a tougher product and risk having definitive areas of cooked egg white and/or yellow yolk.

If separated and whites are beaten into a meringue and gently folded into a soft batter, they are an effective leavening agent. It's difficult to gently fold beaten egg whites into any dough that's stiff enough to be kneaded.

If beaten whole as in an attempt to make meringue, the yolks interfere and limit the amount of potential volume.  This helps avoid definitive streaks of egg white or yolk, but leavening potential is limited.

Egg yolks contain lecithin, which is a very effective emulsifying agent.  This can cause specific effect within a mixture, which may or may not be desired.  Unless there's something in a biscuit/dumpling dough that I need to emulsify, I don't need to add it.   

Add eggs if you like.  Lots of variations.

      I like your idea of keeping it simple, if I understand correctly, when my bag of AP flour & baking powder are finished, a bag of good SR flour is all I need and I'm good to go?

yup.  I only make SR flour from AP and baking powder when I run out.  Otherwise, I keep SR flour on the shelf.

      I manage my pantry with big glass jars, would 2L glass pickle jars be suitable storage for SR flour or would it be light sensitive?

I avoid all glass at all times in a kitchen because glass breaks.  When broken with energy (dropped) it broadcasts over a large area and requires everything within radius that is uncovered be discarded.  It is a huge liability in a professional kitchen.  No need for me to do things differently at home.  I cannot afford the risk of wasted product or injury.  I have two Purex measuring cups but even those make me uncomfortable.  Commercial grade (marked NSF in USA) cookware, small ware utensils and storage equipment is often no more expensive than typical consumer equivalents. 

Light can be an issue, but probably less so where you live than in a hotter environment.  Except for these tin baking powder cans, we use either used restaurant-grade stainless steel hotel pans and containers or new clear plastic commercial grade lexan containers (Rubbermaid, etc). Square/rectangular containers economize space.  Uniform sizes share lids and nest when not in use.  I decided to start building by kitchen with them and eventually got there, mostly buying used.  Takes a while on a budget but IMHO it's worth the effort.

      I normally have 10% cream and canned evaporated milk on hand, which would be closest to Buttermilk? I have thrown a cup of yogurt in on occasion.

Growing up on a dairy farm in VT & SC, I see store-bought "buttermilk" as much different than real buttermilk.  As a chef, you adapt to what's on hand.  Canned evaporated milk will dilute as desired to the desired fat percentage. 10% cream can also be diluted.  Grocery store buttermilk often has very minor fat content, sometimes 0%-2%.  I'm a big fan of the flavor added by buttermilk.  A small amount of vinegar or lemon juice will acidulate whatever milk is on hand for a basic substitute. Drained yogurt solids are a great alternate ingredient for many uses.  The yogurt liquid/whey has use as well, including adding to milk/cream as a way to fake the tangy flavor of buttermilk.....

Try your dough with variations of what you have and keep good notes along the way.  Find what works for you.

      I love your idea of the Parmesan cheese,  and the fresh spices. 

      I use ground up dry Rosemary and Summer Savory, any other recommendations on spices?

I make the dough to appropriate quality without the Parmesan cheese, then mix in approx 1/4-1/3 as much grated cheeses as flour.  Parmesan cheese does not interact with the other ingredients in the same way, so doesn't change the dough that much in this situation- especially if mixed in after the dough is made.

Parmesan cheese adds salt, so I regularly use it in a range of recipes as a salt trade-off.  salt is adjusted down other parts of a recipe. 

The herbs used range with the meat or flavor I want.  I keep dried oregano, dried basil and dried thyme to supplement the same fresh (plus parsley, rosemary and more) that grow well here.  In VT, dried herbs were more regularly used. 

      I never have lard or margarine on hand;I have butter on hand, but it's not something I normally use, should I?

      I use Olive oil, but I could start saving my bacon drippings if it would be a better substitute for lard.

the fat used is up to you. That's why I explained my goal of wanting to produce a large quantity of flour coated small lumps of solid fat.  One friend makes his biscuits with mayonnaise.  A liquid fat changes the waly the dough cooks and leavens.  Not right or wrong, just different and maybe desirable. 

Butter is more difficult to cut into the flour.  Chilled from the fridge, it is very hard.  It can be diced up to make it easier to cut into the flour, but that's a PIA.  It can be warmed slightly to soften, but there's a narrow range between soft and melted.  If melted, it works as a liquid fat and things change.

I keep a range of fat here, reserved from cooking for cooking.  Chicken fat, bacon fat, pork lard, etc. plus unsalted butter, margarine, vegetable oil and good tasting olive oil.   most animal fats are more condiment than anything else.  Most cooking is done with olive oil, which would be my last choice for biscuit or dumpling dough- as much for flavor as anything else.

For flavoring dumplings, I am more likely to use something like bacon fat or chicken in the stew pot to brown/cook the meat and veg.  When I add the stock, the fat floats on top.  When adding dumplings, submerge them at first.  The tops will then be coated with this floating flavored fat.  Anything not captured by the tops will still rise to the top of the liquid to be trapped and then incorporated into the underside of the dumpling. The flavor of the liquid fat is captured by the dumpling without compromising the leavening of the dough.  With this fat on top, the dumpling  tops even brown to a better golden brown.  Win, win, win. 

      I know it's a regional thing, but grits & cornmeal are not things I'm real familiar with, I can see the cornmeal adding a nice flavorful touch at the end. I usually just add my potatoes a bit early for the starch, and sometimes add a little oatmeal at the end, I find it it does nice things to a broth.

we keep oatmeal and have used it for the same.  I usually run it through the food processor first to make it more homogenous when it gelatinizes.  Potatoes work fine.  Mashed cooked beans work fine.  I like the small bits of cooked reconstituted corn a lot.  Not like eating whole kernel corn, but more substance than other finer starches. 

I keep cornmeal to cook and to use as a lubricant on counter & pans when making bread, so it's handy.  It's easy to have extra left over and it may have bits of dough in it.  If you don't just put it back into the bag, Sweep it into a container and save it to use for thickening like this. You can also save the loose baked cornmeal from the bread sheet pan and use it the same way.  It's a cheap way to stretch budget and not waste anything in your kitchen. 

      I just replaced my cook top, repairing my oven is next on the to do list; when it's up and running, the first thing going in it, will be my first ever batch of savory biscuits!     

its tricky to cook good biscuits on a stovetop or campfire, but I've done it.  Keep me posted and ask any questions you have.  I'll try to help.

     Thank you very much

you're very welcome, sir.  Glad this made someone happy! 

     Kelly

     

[cliffrod]

Wow.   What a lot of good info to incorporate into my biscuit-making.

No matter how hard I try, I can't use standard ingredients, and make my biscuits come out tall and fluffy like even KFC or Biscuitville biscuits.    But I've got a few different things to try now!

Just a detail note ... Whereas pure oils and lard are 100% fat, hydrogenated vegetable shortening is about 70%, and "real" butter is about 80% fat, I think ....

Lannis

Butter varies a lot, depending upon what brand or style.   A European style like Plugra is higher fat (80%+ range) and performs much differently than typical USA butter that more likely to be in the 70%-75%.  Some probably leave (or incorporate) more water as an extender or to make it softer.  Handmade butter varies the most.  The only way you can really know is to clarify a given brand and quantify the percentages.  The 70% value is a dependable average, even if low.

For this use, hydrogenated fats may have attached water (molecular level) but it doesn't melt out readily.  So it performs more lke a solid fat than a butter or margarine where the water is readily accessible. 

Hydrogenated oils are hygroscopic and may also have emulsifying qualities, so attract moisture to keep baked products from staling as quickly as non-hydrogenated fats.  Given this tendency to adhere to moisture and moist surfaces, they are functionally "stickier."  This can help adhere present flavor qualities to tissues in the mouth to enhance and prolong the tasting experience. 

Sticky fats in the body aren't necessarily a good thing.  But the body can probably more readily process naturally occurring non-hydrogenated sticky fats in moderation that man made hydrogenated sticky fats in any quantity.

My goal has been the same KFC-Hardee's-Bojangles southern style biscuits.   The margarine and the late addition of reserved raw flour made the big difference in mine.  Working/kneading the dough very little is critical, but it seems the extra water from the margarine (which also cuts into a finer mesh more readily) for leavening and the extra gluten structure were the turning points.   

With biscuits, less is more.  It's one of the most minimalistic things to cook. Whatever people do with their unsatisfactory biscuits, simply working them a little less often improves the result.  Once that is realized, the rest becomes easier to address.  Having the science at hand to use for evaluation will hopefully be beneficial.

[80CX100]

"eggs add different proteins plus fat plus water.

Left whole and unbeaten, they are more likely to interfere with development of gluten structure.  You'll have a tougher product"

^^^^^^^We have a winner, chicken dinner^^^^^^^

Hey Cliffrod,     Thanks for addressing all my questions.

     My dumplings have always been flavorful, but very hearty like biting into a steak, what others might call "tough" lol.

     I always wondered why my dumplings weren't the fluffy light clouds I remembered eating as a kid, now I know, glad I asked you.

     I'll up my game on my next batch, add a little vinegar, cut in the butter and with no egg should be light and fluffy like cotton candy.

    Thanks for sharing and taking the time, very much appreciated, but I'm sure the proof will be in the dumplings.

    stay safe take care

    Kelly

[cliffrod]

Very cool, Kelly. 

Comfort food is very personal.  Lots of chefs ruin favorite grandma/family recipes when they "fix" them.   Clarifying the mechanics of what's happening is better than dictating right vs wrong.   It's hard for a chef that's been driven towards perfection to simply relax and just cook.

One more point to add regarding ingredients that may help.  Professionals usually prove ingredients and recipes.  They will normally scale ingredients for more consistent results.  Home cooks just trust that all will be fine if they follow the recipe and usually measure most things by simple volume.  It doesn't always end well.

As an example, Butter is mostly oil and water. Since water weighs more than the oil, percentage values of a given sample's weight will be different than values in the sample's volumetric percentages.    It may be negligible in a small batch recipe.  Scaled up to production levels, it may be significant.  It's very common for recipes to need significant adjustment depending upon scale of production.  This is a main reason that certain ingredient/products are absolutes in a kitchen to ensure consistent performance.

[cliffrod]

We hadn't had biscuits this week.  so after all this bread threadin', its biscuit time.


Measure SR flour into bowl.  Between 2 1/2-3 cups, guesstimate, to make 8 3 1/2" X 1" breakfast sandwich-sized biscuits. Reserve <1/2 cup flour to add later.  Oven is already preheated to 500F conventional. Margarine and buttermilk are waiting on board.





Scoop 1/3- <1/2 cup (guesstimate) of margarine with masher, drop into center of flour.





Cut fat (margarine) into flour.  It only takes a few mashes to cut flour into small pieces and minor simultaneous  "mixing" to ensure all are covered with flour. As soon as the largest remaining pieces of fat are approx the size of a fresh green pea, I stop.





Make well in center of flour-fat mixture.  Add approx 3/4 cup buttermilk to well.






i mix all together using a fork to stir dry ingredients towards center into buttermilk while turning the bowl as needed.  I try to keep fork relatively dry at first until good incorporation is achieved.   Then I turn all together enough times to equalize the dough.  I'm looking for consistent and uniform incorporation, not a single unified mass of dough.  If sides of bowl,are basically dry but not perfectly clean, liquid ratio is good.  It's better to have to add a little liquid than to try to work in more flour.  The excess water will evaporate and actually makes biscuits a little lighter and crispier.  More flour wreck ratio of flour-fat and leads to more gluten potential.









Dump/spread just more than half of the reserved flour onto work surface (I do it on the actual baking sheet, one less thing to clean) and turn dough out of bowl onto flour.  If ratios are good, bowl should be very clean but not perfectly clean.  See pic-





Put most of the remaining flour on top.  Then knead together 3-4 times, turning and folding the dough as majority part of the kneading process.  Don't knead it like bread dough.  Simply incorporate it into a single, uniform mass.  It shouldn't be stuck to the work surface.  There should still be a light layer of loose flour underneath, separating dough from work surface.





With my fingers, I press dough into a uniform thickness, approx 3/4"-1" thick.  Using a rolling pin is fine but I like feeling the dough to monitor condition.  It should be very delicate and soft, almost puffy.  Using my fingers also also allows me to shape the dough into a shape facilitating cutting biscuits with less scrap.  More working of scraps=more kneading= more gluten potential.  Rolling dough with rolling pinusually means more scrap to reassemble and work, resulting in a greater number of tougher biscuits.





Thickness is relevant to my desired result.  My largest biscuit cutter is 2 3/4" diameter.  I cut 6 biscuits before assembling the scraps for the final two biscuits. Then 1 is cut.  The last one is formed by hand.









Biscuits are arranged in staggered position because I want them to nest & cook together for softer edges.  For,crispy biscuits, I would keep them well separated.    Then I gently flatten them with my fingers to approx 1/2" thick to make them larger, approx 3" in diameter.  (This flattening is typical to do with yeast dough sandwich buns, so,they aren't just super balls..).  Uniform thickness means uniform bake.  Dust the tops with remaining flour and place in HOT 500F oven.





My wife says "aren't you going to take pics and tell them about the rest of breakfast?"

On the stovetop are hash browns. After turning on the oven and beforei start the biscuits- Three medium potatoes, large grated on the old flat cheese grater like typical pizza cheese.  Grate into bowl (actually used this biscuit bowl before doing biscuits). Add a little salt.  Mix and let rest for a couple minutes.  Medium-medium high heat burner with cast iron skillet and a little left over vegetable oil.  Potatoes oxidize and turn brown.  No worries- they turn back to proper white color as they cook.   Squeeze out excess water.  Layer squeezed grated potatoes into pan.  Long, slow even sizzle.  Adjust heat (usually down) to avoid burning.  Add a little extra oil around edges of needed.  Turn once or twice after initial browning. They should hold together but will still be a challenge to turn in one piece.  If they stick like crazy, they aren't browned/caramelized yet.  Slow cook and even sizzle makes great hash browns.  Fast cook high heat burns them.

Next to the hash browns is some leftover ham, not proper country ham but our favorite Cade's Cove ham from Lenoir City, TN-





Beat a few eggs (4). When ham is done, make eggs for biscuits.  8-9 pieces





If you're busy at the stovetop while something is in the oven instead of being far away from the stove, it's easier to keep track of what's happening.  Looks like biscuits are ready.  If undercooked, they fall apart. (Wet, soft) if overcooked, they go from brittle and shatter to hard.  These are great moderate gold showing through raw flour on top-





Add a pat of margarine to each to flavor and limit moisture loss.  I use unsalted, but using salted butter/margarine gives more flavor more quickly when eaten because salt is left on surface to be tasted.  As it melts, the true color is better revealed.









Time to eat.  Happy daughter. Happy wife.  Life could be a lot worse.










That's enough editing.... Time to finish my last biscuit and try to get some paying work done.  Hope this helps with your biscuit (and dumpling) dough adventures.

[Texas Turnip]

thanks for taking the time to explain your bicuit making process.

I'm over half deaf from all the ex wives that made WHOP biscuits.

Tex

[80CX100]

     Hey Cliffrod,     I did a big hamburger stew today so I thought I'd post a follow up with my modified dumpling recipe. Roughly as below with some notes.

     3 cups flower
     3 tblspn baking powder
     lots of Rosemary 4 tblspns ?
     thumb width of butter 1/3? cup? sliced/diced cut in with fork
     2 tblps vinegar
    2 cups ?10% cream
    very thick, next time add 1/2 water
    no egg dry dough,
    spooned grease over dumplings
    simmered 15 minutes off covered 20 minutes

     I forgot to add water to dilute the cream, and without my standard oil, I had a very tough time getting my dough wet enough, I kept adding and working it in, that might have toughened the dumplings up a bit; I used up about 2 weeks worth of cream for my coffee in the dumplings, lol, but they came out pretty good if I say so myself.

     Thanks for your guidance, as I said the proof will be in the dumplings, and a picture is worth a thousand words   

      Kelly
     

[cliffrod]

     Hey Cliffrod,     I did a big hamburger stew today so I thought I'd post a follow up with my modified dumpling recipe. Roughly as below with some notes.

     3 cups flower
     3 tblspn baking powder
     lots of Rosemary 4 tblspns ?
     thumb width of butter 1/3? cup? sliced/diced cut in with fork
     2 tblps vinegar
    2 cups ?10% cream
    very thick, next time add 1/2 water
    no egg dry dough,
    spooned grease over dumplings
    simmered 15 minutes off covered 20 minutes

     I forgot to add water to dilute the cream, and without my standard oil, I had a very tough time getting my dough wet enough, I kept adding and working it in, that might have toughened the dumplings up a bit; I used up about 2 weeks worth of cream for my coffee in the dumplings, lol, but they came out pretty good if I say so myself.

     Thanks for your guidance, as I said the proof will be in the dumplings, and a picture is worth a thousand words   

      Kelly
     

Very cool, Kelly. Those are looking good.  I think you'll be happy with the added cream being thinned.    Quick look at your quantities- I would be closer to 1- 1 1/4 cup total wet liquid (drinkable fluid wet, not thick). Only use barely enough liquid to achieve the necessary dough.

Making the biscuit dough just wet enough to quickly stick & mix together but not stick to the bowl is always my personal challenge.  When I learned to do that, it helped mine a lot. Mine now comes together (mixing with fork as above) in maybe 4-5 rotations of my mixing bowl followed  by only 2-3 more mix/stirs of dough with fork alone.  When done properly, I have a soft, delicate dough that will only need 3-4 turns to knead (press flat, fold in half, press together is one turn) to make good biscuits.  Avoiding extra working of the dough is always a challenge, even for me.  Every batch is practice.  It's fun to practice.

When adding baking powder to flour, to ensure uniform mixing you can either sift it together with a formal flour sifter or whisk the two dry ingredients together very well with a whisk.   Then use as desired.

And there's nothing better than good fat- especially good meat fat- to flavor your dumplings.  I always save my hamburger fat.  having breakfast eggs cooked in last night's hamburger pan is always a special treat....

Carry on- Practice makes perfect!

[blackcat]

I make a no kneed bread and bake in the clay pot(Emile Henry) with consistent results. Basically, mix the dough and let it stand for 12 hours or longer. The next day I just dust a towel with flour and use a spatula to drop it on the towel, fold it a couple of times and dust the top. Let stand for a second rise while the pot heats up in the oven. Drop it in the hot pot and in 40 minutes:

[sib]

Thanks guys.... 

Nice post, but I have a couple of quibbles:
1.  Cholesterol is NOT "...animal fat, nothing more nothing less".  Cholesterol is a specific fatty molecule that differs completely from other lipid molecules like triglycerides and phospholipids.  It's made by a completely different pathway than these other lipids.  All animal cells have cholesterol as a minor component of their cell membranes, and cholesterol is absent from most plant cells.  Almost all animals can synthesize their own cholesterol, so it isn't a required dietary nutrient, but it is an essential component of their cell membranes.
2.  Flour is bleached not by exposure to light. Rather it is exposed to chemical oxidants like "Chlorine Dioxide, Nitrogen Dioxide, Chlorine, Calcium Peroxide, Azodicarbonamide, and Benzoyl Peroxide" (Wikipedia).
3.  "Alternate flours, like rye..." some alternate flours, including rye, barley, and oats, DO contain glutens.

[Guzzi Gal]

This Bread Thread is perfect timing!!!

Grandma's monthly bread day was the BEST for my cousins and me.  We'd play in the yard until the earsplitting Learjet whine of her wheat grinder came to an end, before venturing back inside to help.  We were her "little dough mules", transporting bowls to the warm living room to rise was our job.  I don't ever remember seeing that living room fireplace cold, no matter how hot it got in the summer, that hearth was always aglow.

Grandpa got in the mix too.  He'd place a few jars of honey and comb from his apiary on the kitchen table, along with unsalted butter and an assortment of homemade jams.  Grandma usually made a few dozen loaves, knowing full well that half of the day's work would be ingested before nightfall.  Each batch had several "sacrificial" loaves that were carved, slathered with the aforementioned tasties and eaten before they could cool properly. 

Last week, I made my first whole wheat loaf.  I let it cool considerably before the slicing and slathering, much to my children's chagrin.  My middle son, the pickiest of eaters, fell in love.  The others thought it was okay, but it didn't meet their storebought expectations.  My husband doesn't appreciate "cardboard" bread, regardless of the source.

I was gifted a sourdough starter that has survived my intermittent neglect since last summer.  Methinks I shall try again.   

[cliffrod]

Nice post, but I have a couple of quibbles:
1.  Cholesterol is NOT "...animal fat, nothing more nothing less".  Cholesterol is a specific fatty molecule that differs completely from other lipid molecules like triglycerides and phospholipids.  It's made by a completely different pathway than these other lipids.  All animal cells have cholesterol as a minor component of their cell membranes, and cholesterol is absent from most plant cells.  Almost all animals can synthesize their own cholesterol, so it isn't a required dietary nutrient, but it is an essential component of their cell membranes.
2.  Flour is bleached not by exposure to light. Rather it is exposed to chemical oxidants like "Chlorine Dioxide, Nitrogen Dioxide, Chlorine, Calcium Peroxide, Azodicarbonamide, and Benzoyl Peroxide" (Wikipedia).
3.  "Alternate flours, like rye..." some alternate flours, including rye, barley, and oats, DO contain glutens.

Keep schooling me-

1. Specify the plant sources of cholesterol.  The vast majority of "cholesterol-free" assertions are based upon the fact that no animal fats are added to the product.  It's a marketing claim directed at people who know no better.   That's the entire point of my assertion. 

2.  Chemical oxidants can be used.  Read the label to see what method of oxidation is used.  Before the govt created specifc means to address spurious methods and ingredients,  Diatomaceous earth was used as an extender for white sugar.  Not cool, to say the least.   Different oxidation methods produce different peripheral effects, speed of process, etc.  tell an average person that something is bleached and they'll think the item was soaked in bleach. 

Unbleached flour avoids much of this matter....

3. Specify the actual proteins present in alternative flours that provide gluten potential.  As stated, "gluten" is not a specifc unique molecule or chemical compound like sodium chloride or the oxidizing agents listed above.  It is a elastic physical structure created as specific proteins are moistened with water and manipulated.  Either you have a physical sensitivity to the elastic gluten structures (which are changed dramatically by cooking process during which the responsible proteins are coagulated), you have specific allergy to the protein(s) present and responsible for gluten potential or both.   If you have a true gluten-related medical sensitivity or allergy, it is imperative that you know the true specifics of the matter- not just anecdotal information.   

I will agree that oat flour (made from wheat) contains glutenin and gliadin.  That is obvious.

[sib]

Keep schooling me-

1. Specify the plant sources of cholesterol.  The vast majority of "cholesterol-free" assertions are based upon the fact that no animal fats are added to the product.  It's a marketing claim directed at people who know no better.   That's the entire point of my assertion. 

2.  Chemical oxidants can be used.  Read the label to see what method of oxidation is used.  Before the govt created specifc means to address spurious methods and ingredients,  Diatomaceous earth was used as an extender for white sugar.  Not cool, to say the least.   Different oxidation methods produce different peripheral effects, speed of process, etc.  tell an average person that something is bleached and they'll think the item was soaked in bleach. 

Unbleached flour avoids much of this matter....

3. Specify the actual proteins present in alternative flours that provide gluten potential.  As stated, "gluten" is not a specifc unique molecule or chemical compound like sodium chloride or the oxidizing agents listed above.  It is a elastic physical structure created as specific proteins are moistened with water and manipulated.  Either you have a physical sensitivity to the elastic gluten structures (which are changed dramatically by cooking process during which the responsible proteins are coagulated), you have specific allergy to the protein(s) present and responsible for gluten potential or both.   If you have a true gluten-related medical sensitivity or allergy, it is imperative that you know the true specifics of the matter- not just anecdotal information.   

I will agree that oat flour (made from wheat) contains glutenin and gliadin.  That is obvious.

1.  As far as I am aware, no plants contain cholesterol, but many plants contain low levels of related sterols (phytosterols) that apparently can react with our metabolism to lower LDL levels and not affect HDL levels.
2.  Agree totally.
3.  To quote from Wikipedia: "Gluten ... is a group of proteins, called prolamins and glutelins, which occur with starch in the endosperm of various cereal grains....It is found in ... wheat species and hybrids, (such as spelt, khorasan, emmer, einkorn, and triticale), barley, rye, and oats....Prolamins in wheat are called gliadins; in barley, hordeins; in rye, secalins; and in oats, avenins. These protein classes are collectively referred to as gluten.  Wheat glutelins are called glutenin. True gluten is limited to these four grains.  (The storage proteins in maize and rice are sometimes called glutens, but they differ from true gluten.)"

[cliffrod]

1.  As far as I am aware, no plants contain cholesterol, but many plants contain low levels of related sterols (phytosterols) that apparently can react with our metabolism to lower LDL levels and not affect HDL levels.
2.  Agree totally.
3.  To quote from Wikipedia: "Gluten ... is a group of proteins, called prolamins and glutelins, which occur with starch in the endosperm of various cereal grains....It is found in ... wheat species and hybrids, (such as spelt, khorasan, emmer, einkorn, and triticale), barley, rye, and oats....Prolamins in wheat are called gliadins; in barley, hordeins; in rye, secalins; and in oats, avenins. These protein classes are collectively referred to as gluten.  Wheat glutelins are called glutenin. True gluten is limited to these four grains.  (The storage proteins in maize and rice are sometimes called glutens, but they differ from true gluten.)"

1. As stated, cholesterol is animal fat, not plant fat.  Very cool.
2. Very cool.
3.  In motorcycle terms, gluten is analogous to a power band in a motorcycle's engine.  It exists as a function or behavior of other specific components.   All engines have a power band where optimum power is produced during operation, but not as a specific component.  Gluten is as difficult to explain to most people as a power band.   Both are a catch-all term, used to describe a created condition similar but not necessarily the same in different situations.   Just like a mechanic's eyes glaze over when a person wants the power band on his two stroke dirt bike fixed or adjusted, a knowledgable chef does the same thing when the word gluten is wielded improperly.

Many things have tendencies that are described as glutinous, whether or not that is a scientifically accurate use of the word (much like the difference between "demonstrated" and "proven.")  Mash your potatoes too vigorously, they get tough and your chef will kick your butt while telling you developed the gluten in the potatoes.  Different potatoes have different starch characteristics so are often recommended with a warning about how much gluten they"ll make when mashed.     High lysine corn meal seems very firm and almost glutinous to employ in a recipe, but it isn't truly providing any gluten structures as such.   Lots of examples.

In terms of bread and baking bread- (Bread Thread), the gluten potential of alternate flours is minor if even present compared to traditional hard or soft wheat flour.    Bake all of them and see. Post your results.  If there was a quantitative amount of gluten-related proteins providing adequate gluten potential in alternate flours, bread baked from them would leaven just fine.  It doesn't.  Thick, dense loaves with no webbing and few if any visible voids (bubbles) is all you get. 

I'm not a dietician nor do I claim to be one.   Probably should have included that disclaimer at the beginning.  I have successfully and safely fed hundreds if not thousands of special-diet-request patrons (with real and contrived conditions) over the years.   Wiki is open source, so I only trust it to a point.   I've been through 15 yrs of allergy shots with our daughter and now understand even better that generic allergy claims are often inadequate.

Far too many people who have no reason other than fashion enjoy the gluten-free trend, much like vegetarians wearing leather....  As stated, know what you are specifically allergic to and address it accordingly.   If you would like to quote wiki and do a thread on microbiology and chemistry, that would be fine.   It would be more fun to bake good bread. 

[sib]

Cool, let's get back to V7 Moto Guzzis.  I forwarded your no-knead process to my wife, who says it's very much like the method she has been using, but she appreciates the details and explanations you provide.  Thanks.

[not-fishing]

A man's got to know his limitations

I make a trip every so often (now every 2 weeks) to this little Baker that was educated in France.

The Griso and I get at least 5 loaves when we go.  Three olive, a ciabatta, a blue cheese and walnut usually.  I have to wait to St Paddy's day for Irish soda bread.

They last about a week and a half.

I'm glad I put the alum panniers on the Griso.  The rides take at least 45 minutes of windy country road each way in the Sierra Foothills.  (it's been known sometimes to take hours)

[cliffrod]

I make a trip every so often (now every 2 weeks) to this little Baker that was educated in France.

The Griso and I get at least 5 loaves when we go.  Three olive, a ciabatta, a blue cheese and walnut usually.  I have to wait to St Paddy's day for Irish soda bread.

They last about a week and a half.

I'm glad I put the alum panniers on the Griso.  The rides take at least 45 minutes of windy country road each way in the Sierra Foothills.  (it's been known sometimes to take hours)

Olives are such a great food.  I make and keep tapenade on hand nearly all the time.  I've cured a number of batches of fresh olives, but it's hard to source fresh olives in this area without buying a large quantity for 1-2 persons to eat.  And not everyone is keen on sharing large quantities of olives.  Nothing like good olives and fresh bread, whether they're in it or on it.

A long traditional bread apprenticeship in France would have been great.  Earning an earring would have been very cool.

[pebra]

Cliffrod,
many thanks for an inspiring thread, that, for me as for others here, also evokes childhood memories.
Your educational explanations of what happens during baking and cooking were particularly useful.

Something good has come out of this for me: Craving fresh bread I've started baking, but so far only the befitting lazy man's bread  Flour, nuts, oatmeal, seed, dry yeast and water stirred, poured in loaf tins for leavening cold overnight and then baked.
I admit it's far from the really good homemade bread you advocate, yet it's good to vary bit, and it's good in its own way.

[cliffrod]

Cliffrod,
many thanks for an inspiring thread, that, for me as for others here, also evokes childhood memories.
Your educational explanations of what happens during baking and cooking were particularly useful.

Something good has come out of this for me: Craving fresh bread I've started baking, but so far only the befitting lazy man's bread  Flour, nuts, oatmeal, seed, dry yeast and water stirred, poured in loaf tins for leavening cold overnight and then baked.
I admit it's far from the really good homemade bread you advocate, yet it's good to vary bit, and it's good in its own way.

Very cool, Pebra.  If I can share anything that helps or motivates someone else to cook or cook better, that's the big prize.  This isn't about uppity food.  Some chefs & foodies are snobs.  Others are slobs.  I want to be somewhere in the middle with the fluency to go either way. 

The thing about this artisan bread in five minutes bread is it is the laziest dough i've ever made and it still makes great simple bread. After the first rise and overnight retard, you can just cut a chunk of this dough, throw it in a pan to proof and bake like that.  The only seeds we regularly use in bread are flaxseed, sunflower or sesame seeds but that defeats using the old bread for bread crumbs.

This detail hasn't been mentioned yet.  If you do want seeds, pretzel salt, sanding sugar, additional coarse corn meal, etc on the outside of a bread product- before cooking, wet the surface of the proofed dough just before cooking. Then roll, broadcast or sprinkle the seeds onto the dough.  I use a spray bottle.  Plain water is fine, but anything with water (egg, milk, beer, etc applied with a brush) will make the seeds stick and stay on the bread as it bakes.  Water hydrates some of the present starch, which creates a functional glue on the surface of the gluten cloak.  This makes product stick vs product applied to dry dough that typically just falls off.     If the surface is too wet, the crust may blister- especially if the oven is really hot.  That's usually only a problem if there are actual droplets of water on the dough.

btw- your bread sounds good..

[pebra]

^ Thanks for your kind words, Cliffrod! 

I'm definitely interested in your recipe for the artisan bread on page 1 (inserted below), for a day I feel extra energetic!   

I'm used to metric recipes, but I guess I can simply take a not-too-big cup and measure away.
Then I'm not familiar with your granulated yeast, and doubt if I can get it here. How about using dry (powdered) yeast instead?
And - 1 1/2 tbs of salt, are you sure about that?


3 cups lukewarm water
1 1/2 tablespoon granulated yeast (1 1/2 packets)
1 1/2 tablespoon kosher or other coarse salt
6 1/2 cups unsifted unbleached all purpose flour, measured with the scoop-and-sweep method.

[cliffrod]

^ Thanks for your kind words, Cliffrod! 

I'm definitely interested in your recipe for the artisan bread on page 1 (inserted below), for a day I feel extra energetic!   

I'm used to metric recipes, but I guess I can simply take a not-too-big cup and measure away.
Then I'm not familiar with your granulated yeast, and doubt if I can get it here. How about using dry (powdered) yeast instead?
And - 1 1/2 tbs of salt, are you sure about that?


3 cups lukewarm water
1 1/2 tablespoon granulated yeast (1 1/2 packets)
1 1/2 tablespoon kosher or other coarse salt
6 1/2 cups unsifted unbleached all purpose flour, measured with the scoop-and-sweep method.

I specifically typed that recipe word-for-word from my copy of the book.   It was the first time I had opened it in a long time.

Powdered dry yeast may perform the same.  Depends upon brand.  Give it a try.  Understand that finer grains mean greater density within a given volumetric measure- just like I describe with the salt below.

The 1 1/2 T coarse salt measure is correct.  Kosher salt is larger uneven pieces, so is far less dense than the same volumetric measure of normal cubic crystalline table salt.

After all these years, I only roughly measure the ingredients now while trying to keep ratios appropriate.  Instead of equal measures of granulated yeast & salt, I generally try to err with a little more yeast than salt.  Salt kills yeast and a little extra yeast in this dough doesn't present problems.

[centauro]

Cliffrod,
You have a wealth of good information on baking; my wife has been making artisanal bread for the last few years, using the "no-knead" process, and all done by hand. Lots of time (2 days) are needed to make 2 round loaves, but the result is wonderful.

She uses bread flour, sometimes with a blend of rye flower, or a mix of unbleached and whole grain.
Since we are from Italy, and flour there goes by the grade "00" or Manitoba, we would like to know:

What are the US equivalents for 00 and Manitoba?

Also, where can you buy fresh (cake) yeast?
It used to be available in all supermarkets back in the '70s, but now, you can only get dry, powdered yeast, either the instant or regular kind. In Europe fresh yeast is still available in any grocery store.

Thanks,
VB

[cliffrod]

Cliffrod,
You have a wealth of good information on baking; my wife has been making artisanal bread for the last few years, using the "no-knead" process, and all done by hand. Lots of time (2 days) are needed to make 2 round loaves, but the result is wonderful.

She uses bread flour, sometimes with a blend of rye flower, or a mix of unbleached and whole grain.
Since we are from Italy, and flour there goes by the grade "00" or Manitoba, we would like to know:

What are the US equivalents for 00 and Manitoba?

Also, where can you buy fresh (cake) yeast?
It used to be available in all supermarkets back in the '70s, but now, you can only get dry, powdered yeast, either the instant or regular kind. In Europe fresh yeast is still available in any grocery store.

Thanks,
VB

The following should be close if not fully correct. 

00 refers to the mesh of the grind.  Pretty typical for pasta dough in Italy.    Rough equivalent in terms of mesh or grind is what would is sold as Pastry Flour here in the states.  The problem is Pastry flour is usually very low protein (low gluten potential, to produce tender product) so isn't an equitable substitution.  All purpose flour would be a closer equivalent in terms of protein to 00, but would equate to what is sold as 2 in Italy which is a larger mesh.  It's my understanding that Italian flour was milled to a given mesh more as a trade method of identification for intended use than an indication of protein content & gluten potential.  Totally different approach than some others cuisines.

Manitoba is a general trade name/term for farina flour, a hard winter wheat flour that is very high in protein so it has more gluten potential.  It's often blended with lower protein flour to raise gluten potential.  The prefix W in a flour name is indicative of flour enhanced with Manitoba flour.   You may be able to purchase what is labeled high gluten flour that has a 15% protein content, typical for making bagels and some specialty breads.  That would be a W or Manitoba product.  That's what I used making bagels.  Otherwise, use a good bread flour that will normally be in the minimum 12.5%-13% range.  We rely upon King Arthur Bread Flour and are very happy with it.  In my experience, most bread products do not benefit from using high gluten flour.  It works, but 13%-14% flour is a better option than 15%.

True bagel dough uses very little yeast.  A regular batch of plain bagel dough was 100 pounds of high gluten flour, 50 pounds water, 8 pounds sugar, 1 pound kosher salt(iirc) and 1 pound fresh yeast.  So that's 159 lbs of product being leavened by 1 pound of fresh yeast (with significant inherent water content).   So there needs to be a significant gluten structure to capture every bit of leaving gases produced by the yeast.  Most breads have a much greater yeast ratio and much less sugar, so that extra 1-2% of protein isn't needed.

If available at a supermarket, Fresh yeast cakes are usually very well hidden near the fresh butter.  Look close to the Plugra or European style high fat butter.  If they carry that, there's often fresh yeast nearby in small 1 ounce foil-wrapped packages that look like a butter pat at a restaurant.  Bigger 1 pound blocks can be purchased through a professional food service like Sysco or US Foods if you have access.  Sometimes a local food coop or farmer's market will have such a connection.  Brewer's yeast is different, but you may even find a local craft brewery that can connect you with a resource for regular fresh yeast. 

I find it's hard to find fresh yeast that's actually fresh- it's usually old, flexible and rubbery instead of firm and brittle like fresh yeast should be.  Most regular stores don't sell enough fresh yeast to keep stock rotated.   That's why I buy Fleischman's or Saf T instant yeast in vacuum packed 1 pound foil bags.  it's more consistent and durable.

Hope this helps, VB.

[centauro]

The following should be close if not fully correct. 

00 refers to the mesh of the grind.  Pretty typical for pasta dough in Italy.    Rough equivalent in terms of mesh or grind is what would is sold as Pastry Flour here in the states.  The problem is Pastry flour is usually very low protein (low gluten potential, to produce tender product) so isn't an equitable substitution.  All purpose flour would be a closer equivalent in terms of protein to 00, but would equate to what is sold as 2 in Italy which is a larger mesh.  It's my understanding that Italian flour was milled to a given mesh more as a trade method of identification for intended use than an indication of protein content & gluten potential.  Totally different approach than some others cuisines.

Manitoba is a general trade name/term for farina flour, a hard winter wheat flour that is very high in protein so it has more gluten potential.  It's often blended with lower protein flour to raise gluten potential.  The prefix W in a flour name is indicative of flour enhanced with Manitoba flour.   You may be able to purchase what is labeled high gluten flour that has a 15% protein content, typical for making bagels and some specialty breads.  That would be a W or Manitoba product.  That's what I used making bagels.  Otherwise, use a good bread flour that will normally be in the minimum 12.5%-13% range.  We rely upon King Arthur Bread Flour and are very happy with it.  In my experience, most bread products do not benefit from using high gluten flour.  It works, but 13%-14% flour is a better option than 15%.

True bagel dough uses very little yeast.  A regular batch of plain bagel dough was 100 pounds of high gluten flour, 50 pounds water, 8 pounds sugar, 1 pound kosher salt(iirc) and 1 pound fresh yeast.  So that's 159 lbs of product being leavened by 1 pound of fresh yeast (with significant inherent water content).   So there needs to be a significant gluten structure to capture every bit of leaving gases produced by the yeast.  Most breads have a much greater yeast ratio and much less sugar, so that extra 1-2% of protein isn't needed.

If available at a supermarket, Fresh yeast cakes are usually very well hidden near the fresh butter.  Look close to the Plugra or European style high fat butter.  If they carry that, there's often fresh yeast nearby in small 1 ounce foil-wrapped packages that look like a butter pat at a restaurant.  Bigger 1 pound blocks can be purchased through a professional food service like Sysco or US Foods if you have access.  Sometimes a local food coop or farmer's market will have such a connection.  Brewer's yeast is different, but you may even find a local craft brewery that can connect you with a resource for regular fresh yeast. 

I find it's hard to find fresh yeast that's actually fresh- it's usually old, flexible and rubbery instead of firm and brittle like fresh yeast should be.  Most regular stores don't sell enough fresh yeast to keep stock rotated.   That's why I buy Fleischman's or Saf T instant yeast in vacuum packed 1 pound foil bags.  it's more consistent and durable.

Hope this helps, VB.

It sure does, Cliffrod. Through repeated experimentation, we concur with you  that the King Arthur line of flours and the SAF powdered yeast  make excellent dough time after time.
For pizza dough, however, we have relied on the imported Caputo brand from Italy, which tends to show consistent results. This brand is only available online.

[cliffrod]

It sure does, Cliffrod. Through repeated experimentation, we concur with you  that the King Arthur line of flours and the SAF powdered yeast  make excellent dough time after time.
For pizza dough, however, we have relied on the imported Caputo brand from Italy, which tends to show consistent results. This brand is only available online.

Yup, Caputo is the name to get get.   Good stuff.  Lots easier to throw a dough when it's made with a good strong flour that's well relaxed.

The only food product I generally order online anymore is fresh rennet to make fresh cheese.  I did that quite a bit for a while when they started selling raw milk a mile away, but not much lately.  We enjoy the Mozz and Ricotta, but we grew tired of using all the whey elsewhere and are too cheap to throw it away...

[cliffrod]

We hadn't had biscuits this week.  so after all this bread threadin', its biscuit time.


Measure SR flour into bowl.  Between 2 1/2-3 cups, guesstimate, to make 8 3 1/2" X 1" breakfast sandwich-sized biscuits. Reserve <1/2 cup flour to add later.  Oven is already preheated to 500F conventional. Margarine and buttermilk are waiting on board.





Scoop 1/3- <1/2 cup (guesstimate) of margarine with masher, drop into center of flour.





Cut fat (margarine) into flour.  It only takes a few mashes to cut flour into small pieces and minor simultaneous  "mixing" to ensure all are covered with flour. As soon as the largest remaining pieces of fat are approx the size of a fresh green pea, I stop.





Make well in center of flour-fat mixture.  Add approx 3/4 cup buttermilk to well.






i mix all together using a fork to stir dry ingredients towards center into buttermilk while turning the bowl as needed.  I try to keep fork relatively dry at first until good incorporation is achieved.   Then I turn all together enough times to equalize the dough.  I'm looking for consistent and uniform incorporation, not a single unified mass of dough.  If sides of bowl,are basically dry but not perfectly clean, liquid ratio is good.  It's better to have to add a little liquid than to try to work in more flour.  The excess water will evaporate and actually makes biscuits a little lighter and crispier.  More flour wreck ratio of flour-fat and leads to more gluten potential.









Dump/spread just more than half of the reserved flour onto work surface (I do it on the actual baking sheet, one less thing to clean) and turn dough out of bowl onto flour.  If ratios are good, bowl should be very clean but not perfectly clean.  See pic-





Put most of the remaining flour on top.  Then knead together 3-4 times, turning and folding the dough as majority part of the kneading process.  Don't knead it like bread dough.  Simply incorporate it into a single, uniform mass.  It shouldn't be stuck to the work surface.  There should still be a light layer of loose flour underneath, separating dough from work surface.





With my fingers, I press dough into a uniform thickness, approx 3/4"-1" thick.  Using a rolling pin is fine but I like feeling the dough to monitor condition.  It should be very delicate and soft, almost puffy.  Using my fingers also also allows me to shape the dough into a shape facilitating cutting biscuits with less scrap.  More working of scraps=more kneading= more gluten potential.  Rolling dough with rolling pinusually means more scrap to reassemble and work, resulting in a greater number of tougher biscuits.





Thickness is relevant to my desired result.  My largest biscuit cutter is 2 3/4" diameter.  I cut 6 biscuits before assembling the scraps for the final two biscuits. Then 1 is cut.  The last one is formed by hand.









Biscuits are arranged in staggered position because I want them to nest & cook together for softer edges.  For,crispy biscuits, I would keep them well separated.    Then I gently flatten them with my fingers to approx 1/2" thick to make them larger, approx 3" in diameter.  (This flattening is typical to do with yeast dough sandwich buns, so,they aren't just super balls..).  Uniform thickness means uniform bake.  Dust the tops with remaining flour and place in HOT 500F oven.





My wife says "aren't you going to take pics and tell them about the rest of breakfast?"

On the stovetop are hash browns. After turning on the oven and beforei start the biscuits- Three medium potatoes, large grated on the old flat cheese grater like typical pizza cheese.  Grate into bowl (actually used this biscuit bowl before doing biscuits). Add a little salt.  Mix and let rest for a couple minutes.  Medium-medium high heat burner with cast iron skillet and a little left over vegetable oil.  Potatoes oxidize and turn brown.  No worries- they turn back to proper white color as they cook.   Squeeze out excess water.  Layer squeezed grated potatoes into pan.  Long, slow even sizzle.  Adjust heat (usually down) to avoid burning.  Add a little extra oil around edges of needed.  Turn once or twice after initial browning. They should hold together but will still be a challenge to turn in one piece.  If they stick like crazy, they aren't browned/caramelized yet.  Slow cook and even sizzle makes great hash browns.  Fast cook high heat burns them.

Next to the hash browns is some leftover ham, not proper country ham but our favorite Cade's Cove ham from Lenoir City, TN-





Beat a few eggs (4). When ham is done, make eggs for biscuits.  8-9 pieces





If you're busy at the stovetop while something is in the oven instead of being far away from the stove, it's easier to keep track of what's happening.  Looks like biscuits are ready.  If undercooked, they fall apart. (Wet, soft) if overcooked, they go from brittle and shatter to hard.  These are great moderate gold showing through raw flour on top-





Add a pat of margarine to each to flavor and limit moisture loss.  I use unsalted, but using salted butter/margarine gives more flavor more quickly when eaten because salt is left on surface to be tasted.  As it melts, the true color is better revealed.









Time to eat.  Happy daughter. Happy wife.  Life could be a lot worse.










That's enough editing.... Time to finish my last biscuit and try to get some paying work done.  Hope this helps with your biscuit (and dumpling) dough adventures.

I made a new mistake this morning.  It was instructive and good to add to this biscuit lesson. 

The Self Rising flour canister was almost empty, so I grabbed a new bag (right brand but still in the grocery bag) of flour, filled the canister and made up the dough with approx 2 3/4 cups.  This dough needed a little more buttermilk to come together.  I finished the dough, which was a little heavier than usual, and cut it into 8 biscuits instead of the 9-10 I was expecting.   Put the biscuits into a 500F oven and made bacon and eggs.   

When I checked in 10-12 min, The biscuits didn't have any oven spring.  All were just as flat as when I made them up & placed into the oven.  Not cool.  Turned oven off, reset temp and turned it on again while hoping the oven was ok.   A couple minutes later, the tops were starting to brown but no leavening.  In fact, the bottoms were hard, tops were starting to brown and a central band of raw dough was visible on the edges of many of the biscuits.  Not cool. 

A quick review of what might be wrong turned up the flour.  With grocery store inventory sketchy at this time, the branded bag I used was All Purpose instead of the brand of AP we usually buy.    I didn't pay attention and made a mistake.  Glad it was just breakfast for us.....

We did have another bag of SR on hand, so I made up a new batch with the right ingredients & same quantities. All went as normal.  Only the normal amount of buttermilk was needed to produce a good dough mass.  The dough was noticeably lighter and more delicate to handle.  This initial leavening extended the dough. The same 2 3/4 cups of flour produced 10 biscuits as normal.  They baked properly and came out very well.  Very cool.

Two pics for comparison-

General side by side pans, showing the difference in leavening and biscuit count-




The raw band in center of unleavened AP biscuits is visible in biscuit on the right-




I have posted that it's ok to make your own SR flour using AP and proper measurement of baking powder.  It is but there are drawbacks I didn't mention that may be more obvious with this example.    You'll find that some manufacturer-blended SR flour has a lower protein level than AP flour, between AP and Pastry Flour, to allow the baking powder to more effectively leaven tender products.    Some pastry chefs will blend their flour like this, some don't.   I've done lessons making basic dough from AP and Bread (and, when available, pastry and high gluten) flours to demonstrate the difference in gluten potential.  Since SR flour is typically not used for bread or pizza dough, it wasn't part of those lessons.    It should have been...

Doing a quick batch of each this morning while on autopilot, the difference between AP and SR was very obvious.  The extra liquid required is usually a clue that this flour was different.   The dough did demonstrate a stronger gluten behavior, usually seen as elasticity & a tendency to spring back instead of complying when shaped.  This was confirmed by the nearly total lack of leavening from water in both buttermilk and the margarine used in the dough.

In the end- if you're not happy with your biscuits after making your own SR flour from AP + baking powder, consider purchasing premixed SR Flour before accepting defeat.  The same recipe and technique may produce much different results.   This is why chefs are often inflexible and anal about the ingredients, products and equipment they use.  Small changes can yield significantly different results, so any changes need to be proofed before they can be trusted in service.

[80CX100]

I made a new mistake this morning.  It was instructive and good to add to this biscuit lesson. 

In the end- if you're not happy with your biscuits after making your own SR flour from AP + baking powder, consider purchasing premixed SR Flour before accepting defeat.  The same recipe and technique may produce much different results.   This is why chefs are often inflexible and anal about the ingredients, products and equipment they use.  Small changes can yield significantly different results, so any changes need to be proofed before they can be trusted in service.

     Tks for keeping it real and taking the time to share your experience and insight on the successes and failures.

      I have a whole new appreciation for the different bags of flour on the shelves at the stores.

      I look forward to the next time I'm out shopping to check out what they're actually selling, lol.

      Tks

      Kelly