V7II Gearbox or Tranny?

[stornello465]

Hey Guzzi community! This is my first post here - hoping that someone has some experience or insight with a problem that's been persistent with my V7 II Stornello. First off, I absolutely love the bike. She's been good to me and I've managed to put 10,000 miles (16,000 km) on her. All in all, it's been a smooth ride except for sometimes shifting from fifth to sixth gear (going 60-70MPH) it seems to get stuck in-between, not really going into sixth gear. Engine revs but no power transmission to the rear wheel, which can be a bit gnarly.

Does anyone have insight into what the problem could be? My fist instinct was me, but I've been paying close attention and noticed it's not due to pushing the gear change too soft or too hard, it just happens sometimes. Also drove my buddy's Racer this weekend for an hour and it didn't have the same problem.

[Beowulf]

I may be off but i have found checking the cable adjustment made a tremendous difference for me. If its to loose shifts can be poor. If its to tight shifts are difficult. I found it should be at the point were it isnt putting tension on the arm located at rear of the tire but no slack.you should be able to rotate the cable in the joint without to much difficulty if not its to tight and vice versa. it smoothed things tremendously. When someone says Guzzi shift rough it isnt adjusted correctly imo( take that for whats it worth)


The other thing i would do is drain the transmission oil and look for metal. See if you have something deeper going on. Start with adjustment points and make sure everything is engaging as it should. Sometimes the shoes i wear make a difference ( odd i know) the other thing i found is the oci on the trans and gearbox is better at half life for smoother shifts at least in my head.

Not trying to push oil here as i have run many different types but redline shockproof is great stuff.

[stornello465]

I may be off but i have found checking the cable adjustment made a tremendous difference for me. If its to loose shifts can be poor. If its to tight shifts are difficult. I found it should be at the point were it isnt putting tension on the arm located at rear of the tire but no slack.you should be able to rotate the cable in the joint without to much difficulty if not its to tight and vice versa. it smoothed things tremendously. When someone says Guzzi shift rough it isnt adjusted correctly imo( take that for whats it worth)


The other thing i would do is drain the transmission oil and look for metal. See if you have something deeper going on. Start with adjustment points and make sure everything is engaging as it should. Sometimes the shoes i wear make a difference ( odd i know) the other thing i found is the oci on the trans and gearbox is better at half life for smoother shifts at least in my head.

Not trying to push oil here as i have run many different types but redline shockproof is great stuff.

Thanks for the tips, Beowulf! This gives me something to get started with. Will post here if I find anything changing out the transmission oil or adjusting the cable.

[Kev m]

Just to double check it's not you, besides not pushing too hard or soft are the errors of:

* Not pushing far enough (not enough throw)
* Not RELEASING fully before the shift (not allowing the ratchet to reset).

If you have too much preload on the shifter the ratchet can't reset, this can be because of foot position or size.

[jpv7]

Hey Guzzi community! This is my first post here - hoping that someone has some experience or insight with a problem that's been persistent with my V7 II Stornello. First off, I absolutely love the bike. She's been good to me and I've managed to put 10,000 miles (16,000 km) on her. All in all, it's been a smooth ride except for sometimes shifting from fifth to sixth gear (going 60-70MPH) it seems to get stuck in-between, not really going into sixth gear. Engine revs but no power transmission to the rear wheel, which can be a bit gnarly.

Does anyone have insight into what the problem could be? My fist instinct was me, but I've been paying close attention and noticed it's not due to pushing the gear change too soft or too hard, it just happens sometimes. Also drove my buddy's Racer this weekend for an hour and it didn't have the same problem.

I’ve missed the odd shift between 5th and 6th on my V7ii too.  It’s usually towards the end of an 800km day, so I chalk it up to the fact that I’m getting tired.  How often does it happen to you?

[stornello465]

Just to double check it's not you, besides not pushing too hard or soft are the errors of:

* Not pushing far enough (not enough throw)
* Not RELEASING fully before the shift (not allowing the ratchet to reset).

If you have too much preload on the shifter the ratchet can't reset, this can be because of foot position or size.

Kev m - thank you for this. When you say releasing before the shift, do you mean releasing the shifter (foot) before releasing the clutch and engaging the throttle? I'll definitely have to check this out when I ride.

[stornello465]

I’ve missed the odd shift between 5th and 6th on my V7ii too.  It’s usually towards the end of an 800km day, so I chalk it up to the fact that I’m getting tired.  How often does it happen to you?

Happens to me about 1-3 times for every hour driving or so. If I read what Kev m said correctly, could be that I don't release shifter before releasing clutch, or something like that.

[Kev m]

Kev m - thank you for this. When you say releasing before the shift, do you mean releasing the shifter (foot) before releasing the clutch and engaging the throttle? I'll definitely have to check this out when I ride.

Yes, I'm just talking about the shifter pedal. It works on a ratchet mechanism that must reset after each shift. If your foot is holding too much pressure against the pedal after a shift it cannot fully reset and may not go the full stroke in the next shift.

[stornello465]

Yes, I'm just talking about the shifter pedal. It works on a ratchet mechanism that must reset after each shift. If your foot is holding too much pressure against the pedal after a shift it cannot fully reset and may not go the full stroke in the next shift.

This is super helpful. If it wasn't obvious yet, this is my first bike so I have lots to learn! I'll pay close attention and see if I'm applying too much pressure after shifting to 5th, which wouldn't let it reset before shifting to 6th.

[jpv7]

This is super helpful. If it wasn't obvious yet, this is my first bike so I have lots to learn! I'll pay close attention and see if I'm applying too much pressure after shifting to 5th, which wouldn't let it reset before shifting to 6th.

Make sure your shifter pedal is adjusted so it’s comfortable for you.  Otherwise, you might be loading it inadvertently...

[malik]

You definitely have to allow the gearshift return spring to operate the re-set. Take your toe right away from it.

Another things to check is the gear shift linkages. Check that the gear lever is firmly on the splines of the selector shaft (the one that comes out of the gearbox) and the lower one on the splines of the pin. Those studded rod ends aren't the best and seem to allow more slack than is necessary. Some adjustment there may help. Those rod ends can be disassembled, (the wire comes out & the ball pulls out), and cleaned. I use white lithium grease to lubricate.

[SED]

Hey Stornello,  Welcome to WG!

Everyone's advice is great - good cable adjustment and clean shifts.  I've had the problem Kev mentioned for just the reason that JPV7 said.  When relaxed, my boot had a little load on the shifter and the ratchet didn't reset between shifts.

One more tip:  Hold the shifter down (or up) against it's stop until you've started to engage the clutch (release the lever).  This makes sure you pushed the shifter all the way and that it doesn't jump out of gear as the gears are taking up the load.  This is especially helpful if you've got a dodgy transmission like the Albion 'box in the Royal Enfield that trained me.      Practice these techniques and you won't have false neutrals. 

[malik]

Ahhhh. Those old Enfield boxes - 1-N-2-N-3-N-4.

[Muzz]

I have a Breva, which is the predecessor of your Stornello.
 
It probably doesn't apply, but it could be worth checking in case it does.  No one else has ever mentioned it that I can remember on this site.

The linkage rod that goes from the inside lever on the foot change up to the lever on the gearbox does not actually push in a straight line.  If the rod linking the foot change to that lever was a bit longer it would, and I think would improve the gear change no end.  The tester who does my Warrant of Fitness checks picked up that there was actually a bit of lateral movement in that shaft.  With that bit of angle on that rod it would actually move the gear shifter out a bit every time I changed gear.  Fortunately i possess a lathe, so I just made up a spacer from a piece of slippery bearing type industrial plastic and set it so that the linkage rod was just that bit closer to being  vertical.  The shifting which I thought was pretty good before became far more positive without that lateral movement happening.

As I said, probably doesn't apply but it wouldn't hurt to check.

[Sykestone8886]

I also have a stornello with 11,000 miles on it. I've never experienced what your dealing with but I did have a problem finding neutral, turns out locknut on the lever was loose and out of adjustment. I have missed a shift between 5th and 6th several times due to my error. I'm sure you know these bikes need to rev high to run good, don't put pressure on the shifter and I think you'll see a difference.

[stornello465]

Wow, really overwhelmed by the support and insight form everybody - thank you!

jpv7 - I'll see what I can do to adjust the shifter if necessary. Right now I don't have any force on it for 99% of the ride, but could be that 1% when it's acting up.

Malik - I think I've had the toe touching during times I've experienced the issue.

SED - Super helpful, will definitely give this a try! I may have mistimed before where I've released pressure from shifter a bit too early before releasing clutch.

Muzz - this is really insightful. I think I'll ride my buddy's V7 II racer around a bit more to see if I can replicate the problem on his bike - then it'd be a design issue like with your Breva. Like you said, definitely doesn't hurt checking :)

Skystone8886 - yeah, 100% of high revs. I try to keep her between 4k and 6k, generally. I've had some problems finding Neutral when she's cold - will check the locknut. Thanks!

Time to go to work, I have lots of checking to do :) Thanks again everyone!

[Andy1]

I would replace the gearbox oil - with whatever is specified in the MG manual - which no doubt will be a synthetic.
I had a late Ducati MHR which had a similar issue when I bought it - New oil sorted it
AndyB

[stornello465]

I would replace the gearbox oil - with whatever is specified in the MG manual - which no doubt will be a synthetic.
I had a late Ducati MHR which had a similar issue when I bought it - New oil sorted it
AndyB

AndyB - thank you, can't believe I didn't think of it. I have a '79 Vespa P125X that had the exact same problem, changing gearbox oil sorted it then too. Now I've gotta order some parts.

[Huzo]

I think it’s significant that it only happens on the change from 5 to 6...
The other associated parts of the mechanism are working fine for the other changes. I would replace the oil with the very best possible and if it doesn’t stop playing up, I’d go in for a look.
There’ll be no half arsed magical remedy...

[malik]

Re the toe - if one rides with the balls of the foot on the pegs, rather than the instep, the toes are less likely to linger longer than necessary.

The Racer is a little different animal down there, the rear sets have more linkages. Keep that in mind, as other than that, it's the same.

Having difficulty getting into neutral when stopped - is usually on our V7's an indication that the clutch lever needs a tad more tightening. Try winding the adjuster out a few turns - there should be about 2mm of free play (the width of a small coin) and the clutch should start to engage further out, rather than closer to the bar. Check out the "V7 clutch adjustment" threads on here for the definitive advice from Pete Roper. Note that it is not uncommon for new bikes just off the showroom floor to have a badly adjusted clutch cable.

[stornello465]

I think it’s significant that it only happens on the change from 5 to 6...
The other associated parts of the mechanism are working fine for the other changes. I would replace the oil with the very best possible and if it doesn’t stop playing up, I’d go in for a look.
There’ll be no half arsed magical remedy...

Yeah, I thought it was pretty significant too. Brought it in for service in September with my local Guzzi garage in SF and asked them to take a look since it's been going on since I got it. Warranty is still active through June this year so was hoping we could identify what was going on. They kind of just ignored it / chocked it up to user error (just adjusted the clutch cable, didn't even tell me). Emailed them recently again asking to take a look, they said "maybe just nature of the beast," and then when silent on me.

Kind of left to my own devices now and all the support from this community.

[stornello465]

Re the toe - if one rides with the balls of the foot on the pegs, rather than the instep, the toes are less likely to linger longer than necessary.

The Racer is a little different animal down there, the rear sets have more linkages. Keep that in mind, as other than that, it's the same.

Having difficulty getting into neutral when stopped - is usually on our V7's an indication that the clutch lever needs a tad more tightening. Try winding the adjuster out a few turns - there should be about 2mm of free play (the width of a small coin) and the clutch should start to engage further out, rather than closer to the bar. Check out the "V7 clutch adjustment" threads on here for the definitive advice from Pete Roper. Note that it is not uncommon for new bikes just off the showroom floor to have a badly adjusted clutch cable.

Thanks! Didn't know that about the Racer and the 2mm free play on the adjuster, so that's really helpful.

[malik]

Here's the full instructions from Pete, posting then (26 Dec 2014) as VascoDG in "how to adjust clutch of a 2012 V7?". Save it, print it, sooner or later, it will come in handy.

Quote -

OK. Firstly, unless you have an issue leave it alone!

There should be a couple of mm of movement at the lever on the bar before you begin to feel resistance. This is the free play needed to prevent the arm riding the thrust bearing and constantly pre-loading the clutch. I know a lot of people like the clutch lever to feel 'Firm' and not move about in the perch but this is actually bad for the system. You have to have that free play!

If you have the handlebar adjuster on the perch backed all the way out and there is still TOO MUCH free play at the bar? Then and only then do you need to frig about with the difficult to access adjuster on the actuating arm on the back of the gearbox.

In the case you cannot get the free play right with the perch adjuster proceed like this.

1.) Turn the perch adjuster 3/4 of the way in towards the lever increasing the free play.

2.) Grab a 13mm spanner and I think for a V7 of your vintage a 3mm Allen key and lie down by the bike. Make sure it can't fall on you while you're messing about. If you have a lift? Elevate the bike appropriately.

3.) Loosen the 13mm locknut on the arm adjuster and then using the Allen key wind the adjuster IN towards the engine until resistance is felt. Back it off about an eighth of a turn and lock up the locknut.

4.) Slither out cursing from under the bike and go round and feel the free play in the lever on the handlebar. If it is close to the 2mm of free play you are aiming for simply use the perch adjuster to get it right and you're done. If it is too tight? Get back under the bike and loosen the locknut and wind the arm adjuster out a smidge more. If you still have too much play at the lever wind the arm adjuster in a bit and lock it up again.

5.) Repeat step 4 until you have the free play correct and most of the adjustment at the perch is available for tightening in service. This will coincide with your being really dirty and pissed off but life's like that.

6.) Put 13mm spanner and Allen key back in toolbox, curse, brush off as much grot as possible from your clothes and go to the fridge and crack a beer.

Pete


Note that on both my V7's the bottom adjuster is a 3mm blade, not an Allen key. I've had a tool made up to fit - a bit of stainless plate, with a couple of 3mm slots at different angles -'cos there's not a lot of room down there. Whatever works. If you have, or can find, a 3mm spoke wrench, you're laughing.

[Vagrant]

the 5 speed Pete wrote about does not apply to the 6 speed!
Why I don't know but they are totally different animals when it comes to finding neutral.

[SmithSwede]

I'm not sure why Guzzi even put a 6th gear on this bike.   My 2013 V7 only has 5 gears, and 5 is plenty. 

Just ignore that pesky 6th gear and all will be well. 

[Kev m]

I don't find any difference in finding neutral on the 5-speed or 6-speed transmissions. I mean they both are hard if the cable is out of adjustment and both are fine when adjusted.

I suspect most owners shouldn't need to touch the bottom end adjustment, not in normal course of maintenance.

As for the 5 or 6-speed necessity debate, I can't say I felt my MKI needed a 6th gear, at least not when 2 of the other 3 bikes in the fleet were also 5-speeds.

Then one day I woke up and 3 of the 4 bikes were all 6-speeds (with ABS to boot) and I started looking for a 6th gear when riding my MKI.

So I guess it's not all black and white and perception may play a part, maybe a large part.

[Huzo]

As for clutch adjustment.
If you have free play at the lever and you can also put the bike in 1st gear with the clutch in and wheel it around easily, or turn the wheel by hand on the centrestand...?
Then you are within the design limits.
Obviously this needs to be the case hot and/or cold.
Buggerising around with minuscule adjustments will just alter the take up point.
My V85 has a large degree of free play at the lever, yet I can select 1st gear on the centrestand and still easily rotate the back wheel by hand with the clutch in.

[stornello465]

Thanks again everyone for the support here. Wanted to give a quick status update.

I contacted Piaggio to see if they could give some guidance (warranty is still active, Guzzi dealer in SF blew me off, got a bunch of advice here that I wanted to try). They ended up recommending that I take it to a shop that's quite a bit further away (San Jose) so their techs could take a look at it. Just got a phonecall today that their tech confirmed it's an issue with the transmission. I can't remember the exact details, but long story short they noticed the shifting issue (around 5th to 6th gear, specifically), found metal shavings in the transmission oil, and just submitted the warranty claim to replace the whole transmission!

Hoping everything goes smoothly, but can't say enough good things about this community for imparting your wisdom on me, Piaggio group for going the extra mile, and Spirit Motorcycles in SJ for taking the bike in and working on it in these difficult times! Thanks to everyone.

[Muzz]

Hope that warranty claim goes straight through with no hiccups.

[stornello465]

No dice :/