- V9 - Battery/Cranking Issue

[Kev m]

In the US batteries are often warrantied for a certain time frame but it depends on the OEM. Aftermarket batteries are often prorated and percentage of life left credited toward a replacement.

That said I don't think I ever recall personally pursuing one and didn't bother when Jenn's V7III battery failed recently.

[Kiwi_Roy]

For car batteries we have Canadian Tire, they have no problem honouring their warranty, they give you a percentage .
If you put the receipt underneath the battery when you install it you find it when you take the old one in for replacement.

[bodine99]

Might want to look at Battery Mart YTZ14S-BS $$66.00 230cca

[Vagrant]

Going through the same crap with my III. Came home from a trip with oxford heated grips on and the green light saying not enough juice flashing. I checked and. Batt was at 12.7 but max charge at 4000 was 13.0-13.1 not enough. Fully charged battery and stArted several times. Still only 13 volts at 4000. Tried to remove regulator and wire connections are buried and can't be gotten to with tank removed like the 2015. Looks like the  only way is to heat gun the plastic cover in the front and bend it down to get to the conndctors. I ordered a new regulator from Cadre but it's taking time. After fiddling to get the wire connections out it now is charging 14.1.  Mosfit didn't show one but said if i send a pic the might be able to match it. It has 7 wires. I should have done this.

[Bert Remington]

Hmmm this is beginning to sound like an RE forum -- battery and charging problems plus get a voltmeter.

Vagrant -- two years ago at GTM you said overcharging regulators weren't an issue for V7 IIIs so what happened with your undercharging?  The wire connection fiddling is concerning.  Water intrusion issues?  Undersized wiring issues?  And could you provide some details on your Mosfit conversation (did you mean Roadstercycle Mosfet?).  Are you going to get his LED battery monitor?  As an oldster I'm going to need those heated grips and heated vest on my V7 III.

PS that sucks on the regulator cover but thanks for the heads-up.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I picked up my V7III today, the service manager said a backfire had blown the throttle body connections apart, no wonder it was running weirdly. He said they will backfire with a low battery
I told him I wanted a larger capacity battery Yuasa YTX14H-BS 240 CCA, to my surprise he agreed.
The flames coming out of the middle of the mufflers was some sort of cloth sandwiched between the muffler and the trim, I will take the trim off and try to get a picture.
He had no explanation for the battery going flat in the first place, neither do I but I ordered a Voltmeter so at least I will be able to keep an eye on it in the future instead of the sudden surprise when it won't re-start.
I must say I was pleased with the way the Service Manager at International Motorsports treated me, he went to great lengths to talk to Piaggio on my behalf.
It sure is nice to have my baby back home.
The next day I pulled the trim of the catalytic converter to see what was burning up

It seems it was the aluminium foil that was burning, the crinkled part has no body left.
It might have been the glue used to stick the foil in place.

Thank goodness it didn't end up like this poor Racer at my tire shop.

Yes, Sir !

So, maybe the original battery is enough - and this particular battery is simply a bit wonky. Maybe it's something else.  Went over all of the wiring and grounds and such and have the same issue.

So, ordered the YTX14H-BS battery yesterday.  240 cold cranking amps .vs the 200 CCA of the original.

 

Thanks for the recommendation, why wouldn't you go for this battery for a V9 or V7?

[greer]

Good!!  Thank you for the follow up.  I am happy to have been wrong about the battery, and relieved to hear the flames were nothing serious.  That must have been a humdinger backfire.

Sarah

[Kiwi_Roy]

Sarah, there are thousands of owners of V7s out there who have never had problems with their batteries. I have never seen a schematic for a V9 so I just have to assume they are similar to the V7.
So why are the posters on this thread having problems, KBallowe, Kev M and Vagrant are all knowledgable guys and I like to think I know a thing or two about batteries and electrics.
So what is the difference between us and the rest of the owners, might it be just in the way the battery was put into service?
I know my bike sat for over two years in a crate, the guy who put it in service over here checked a box that said it was charged for 10 hours but really I take that with a grain of salt, he's probably doing half a dozen other bikes at the same time. For sure Luigi never bothered before it went in the crate although I imagine in the factory the batteries are all commissioned before even getting near the bike.
I'm sure some shops take more care than others when commissioning a battery.
The battery in my bike has always seemed weak, leave the heated gear on for 5 minutes without the engine running and for sure I was looking at a push start. Without a Voltmeter it was always a surprise when it went click, click click
I don't pretend to be an expert on AGM batteries but something tells me giving them a good initial charge builds up some stamina instead of just a surface charge, the instructions that came with the replacement battery called for 1.4 Amps for 5 - 10 hours, a battery tender will not do that it was reading well over 14 Volts after 3 so what is all that extra energy doing if not saturating the plates. I'm sure if you just throw a new battery in and ride away its not too late to condition it properly at some other date, perhaps even a decent long ride will do that for you.
So now as of tomorrow I have a brand new battery, I can't blame anyone else for the way it was put in service.
The YTX14H-BS battery also has a couple of extra plates, that additional cranking capacity can't hurt.
The Yuasa batteries are made in USA, I like that over made in China.
I will be installing a Voltmeter as soon as it arrives.
The charging circuit of the V7 looks fairly simple, I haven't pulled mine apart yet but I will do.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif

Excuse my following rant about battery terminals.
Don't forget to scrape and apply Vaseline to your new battery posts, It helps prevent Lead oxide and other nasty corrosion.
I always jamb a small piece of foam rubber under the terminal nuts, it makes it easier to get the bolt started especially if you have several wires to connect.

[Vagrant]

Hmmm this is beginning to sound like an RE forum -- battery and charging problems plus get a voltmeter.

Vagrant -- two years ago at GTM you said overcharging regulators weren't an issue for V7 IIIs so what happened with your undercharging?  The wire connection fiddling is concerning.  Water intrusion issues?  Undersized wiring issues?  And could you provide some details on your Mosfit conversation (did you mean Roadstercycle Mosfet?).  Are you going to get his LED battery monitor?  As an oldster I'm going to need those heated grips and heated vest on my V7 III.

PS that sucks on the regulator cover but thanks for the heads-up.

The 2015 V7 was a horrible overcharge 17+ volts. The 2017 is way under charge. Sometimes. I suspect  cheap chinese parts! Did not upgrade but should have. Still waiting on Guzzi new one. Dumb move. I will have a volt meter on it now.

My batt still tests good so will wait right now.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes we shouldn't assume Guzzi use the best parts but surely there must be some quality control.
Where will you attach the Volt meter, Im kind of leaning towards hooking it onto the city light (43), there it will be on a switched circuit and it should also show the Voltage while the bike is cranking.
Another spot would be to tie it to the GPS ready outlet (11) that also is switched and quite direct to the battery, I'm not sure where that's hiding though.
Both these points might be effected a little by the load of the headlight when the bike starts but they are easy to access without having to cut into the loom.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
I'm not sure why my charging failed back in reply no 21 but one way or another I will prevent a re-occurance

[Vagrant]

I have a couple of cigarette lighter units for temporary use.

[Kiwi_Roy]

After charging the battery at 1.4 Amps for 6 hours the Voltage across it was 16.8 Volts, it quickly dropped down below 14 once removed from power supply;
Obviously this current is fairly important, they go to the trouble of printing it right on the battery. A battery tender would not be able to meet those conditions.
After several hours running around doing errands its dropped back to 12.7.

[Kev m]

After charging the battery at 1.4 Volts for 6 hours the Voltage across it was 16.8 Volts, it quickly dropped down below 14 once removed from power supply;
Obviously this current is fairly important, they go to the trouble of printing it right on the battery. A battery tender would not be able to meet those conditions.
After several hours running around doing errands its dropped back to 12.7.

1.4 Volts? Current?

Did you mean Amps?

FYI, my "current" (see what I did there?) battery tender is a 5 amp unit.

https://www.batterytender.com/Battery-TenderR-5A-Power-Tender-Series-High-Efficiency

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes of course its Amps, I fixed that 
I probably rode about 50 km yesterday and taking Voltage readings whenever I stopped its fairly obvious its just running on the battery (not charging)
I'm running an LED headlight so it's not sucking the battery down as fast as the OEM bulb would, there must be an intermittent fault somewhere which is probably effecting multiple bikes.
According to the shop they tested the charging circuit, I didn't talk to the mechanic, just the manager so I'm not sure how they did that. 
I tried to find where the connections (1) are so I could start testing but the wires at the regulator disappear somewhere, hidden by the ABS, has anyone spotted these or changed out the regulator?
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif

[Vagrant]

see my post #33 above. the only way I can see to get to the connection is to heat the plastic cover on the top front of the frame with a heat gun. bend it down to get to the connector. can't reach it from the tank top side but did pull on them a bit and it started charging again.
I'm still waiting for the part. let us know what you find.

[Kiwi_Roy]

https://www.batterytender.com/Battery-TenderR-5A-Power-Tender-Series-High-Efficiency

Haha THIS ITEM IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE DUE TO COUNTRY RESTRICTIONS. they must thing its too high tech for us Canucks lol

[Kiwi_Roy]

see my post #33 above. the only way I can see to get to the connection is to heat the plastic cover on the top front of the frame with a heat gun. bend it down to get to the connector. can't reach it from the tank top side but did pull on them a bit and it started charging again.
I'm still waiting for the part. let us know what you find.

I did read that but I wasn't sure what plastic cover you were referring to, will try to spot it today, obviously we need to get at the connections.
from your pulling on the wires must be a loose connection in there that needs to be sorted.
Could you post a picture of the cover perhaps.
Update,
I think the best way to access the connectors is remove the tank then unbolt the front coil, the connectors are just stuffed into the space,
Cheers
Roy

[Kiwi_Roy]

Good!!  Thank you for the follow up.  I am happy to have been wrong about the battery, and relieved to hear the flames were nothing serious.  That must have been a humdinger backfire.

Sarah

The flames would have been serious if I hadn't scrounged a bottle of water from a passing car, I tried batting them out with my gloves but all I got was a nice burn blister.
Im not exactly sure what was burning the aluminium foil or the glue behind it, certainly something Piaggio should take notice of, perhaps I should have just taken a video of a total melt down for U-tube lol

[Kev m]

Haha THIS ITEM IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE DUE TO COUNTRY RESTRICTIONS. they must thing its too high tech for us Canucks lol

Ha ha, sorry I went back to bed.

I was replying to your comment that a battery tender couldn't have properly activated a new battery by showing you one that can. If you can smuggle it across the border lol.

Here are the specs:

* Input: 120VAC @ 60 Hz
* Output: 12 Volts DC @ 5 Amps
* 4-Step Fully Automatic Charging (Initialization, Bulk, Absorption, Float) Automatically switches to float / maintenance voltage after fully charging the battery.
* Perfect for all lead-acid, flooded or sealed maintenance free batteries (AGM and Gel Cell)
* Spark Proof
* Short Circuit Protected
* Reverse Polarity Protected
* Safety timer: 72 hrs

[Vagrant]

it is a full length under the frame tubes cover. it looks to be held up with some tiny screws that for sure would get dropped into never-never land if removed.
I sure hope you experiment with it so I'm not the guinea pig.

[Bert Remington]

Here are my thoughts:

Battery: FLA/AGM that may have been improperly prepared (reduces performance and lifetime); may have sat unattended for months (affects lifetime); may have been overcharged, especially from a deep discharge (affects performance and lifetime).  By performance, I mean both the ability to sustain a high discharge rate (eg, starting, long waits in traffic) and accept a high charge rate (eg, highway riding with only LED headlight load).

Regulator: narrow charging range based on incandescent headlight and MG-only accessory loads and inefficient semiconductors.  An LED headlight would lead to overcharging (too small a load) and heated grips and vest would lead to undercharging (too large a load).  The efficiency of the semiconductors affects overcharging (excess charging power cannot be dissipated by the regulator so it does into battery) and undercharging (charging power is dissipated as heat by regulator and doesn't reach the battery).

Connections: undersized; loose at factory; lack/weak weather protection; lack/weak mechanical locks.

Candidate mitigations:

Battery: replace with biggest that will fit, preferably one already prepared by the OEM (eg, MotoBatt) or Lithium.  If motorcycle isn't ridden at least an hour every week then use appropriate high-end charger.

Regulator: replace with MOSFET semiconductor version.

Connections: get to know your motorcycle. An end-to-end check of all connections in the charging and starting circuits for looseness both of the connector itself and the terminals within it.  Then use some protective grease (many like Vaseline; I like Honda 08798-9001; silicone can be troublesome in the long-term).

Voltmeter: either an LED displaying tenths or a full scale dial gauge.  If LED then leave permanently connected to the battery.  I don't know enough to say for dial gauge.

Going in I knew the RE would need attention.  I kinda hoped the Norge would need less but got used to it.  I was expecting the Stone would need dealer service only but that appears to be a fantasy.  Moto Guzzi "Making mechanics out of riders since 1921". 

[Moparnut72]

Before I got my MG I had a Harley 110". It would barely start in the morning when it was below 40*. I put a ThrottleX 500 amp battery in it. it was a lot better. When I traded the bike a short time later I took the ThrottleX out and put the original back in. I took the stock battery out of my Guzzi because the bike was more than 3 years old when I bought it, not a popular model. I didn't know if the battery had been replaced or not so I put a known battery in it. So I have way more power than what I need but it doesn't hurt. By the way what brand is the stock battery in MGs?
kk

[Bert Remington]

From my perspective, there are two regulator choices: the ESR New Model at GTM and the FH020AA at Roadster Cycle.  My preference is GTM because it appears to be Form-Fit-Function replacement but is it MOSFET technology?  The ESR is made by ElectroSport Industries in SoCal.  I went to their website in search of MOSFET information.  I went to their Technical Resources and here's what they said:

How to Diagnose Electrical System Issues on Motorcycles

Any well-working modern motorcycle charging system will produce a voltage over the battery terminals in between 13.5V DC and 14.5V DC, over the entire rev range. When you suspect a fault in the system, this [voltage] is the first thing to check on your bike.

When you find that there is a problem, keep in mind that the number 1 problem with any charging system are bad connections.

Suspect any connection in the entire system. It's advisable to take off all fairing parts, the fuel tank and seat, and just disconnect all connectors you can find. Do these one at a time, and spray them with a contact cleaner before fitting the connector again.

This is why Vagrant's finding

After fiddling to get the wire connections out it now is charging 14.1.

put me on Red Alert.  The two regulator connectors (3-pin to alternator and 4-pin to battery) are Molex-style (ie, terminals exposed to weather).  And the regulator is mounted in a weather-exposed location for cooling purposes.  And those are high current terminals so any reduction in conductivity will result in a increase in resistance heating and a faulty battery voltage reading to the regulator.

From a sealed conductor perspective, the Roadster Cycle is the better choice albeit with additional installation effort.  But if the GTM is a MOSFET direct replacement I will use it because I know how to weather-protect Molex-style connectors.

I'll ask ElectroSport if their regulators use MOSFETs.  They probably do but want to confirm.

[Bert Remington]

Here are my findings to date:

WRT most battery and regulator problems, the most likely cause is reduced conductivity of the terminals in the "open" Molex-style weather-exposed connectors.  Mitigation is separating the connectors, judiciously using a spray cleaner, and reconnecting them.  It's good if you use a bit of Vaseline or dielectric grease to seal the backs of the connectors against water intrusion.

WRT to battery chemistry, your primary choices are FLA/AGM (flooded lead acid), SLA/AGM (sealed lead acid) and LFP (lithium ferrophosphate).  Most FLAs are shipped dry requiring careful preparation before use for proper operation and long life.  SLAs and LFPs are delivered ready for use although an overnight charge is best.  FLAs and SLAs weigh about the same and much more than LFPs (when you receive an LFP package for the first time you will wonder if they shipped it empty).  I won't go into the operational tradeoffs between FLAs, SLAs and LFPs because they are so controversial (as are Odyssey/Optima).  But I will say if you stick with lead-acid, I recommend SLA for their ease of care (I'm a fan of MotoBatt).

However there are battery vs regulator tradeoffs which I wasn't aware of until discussions with ElectroSport.  Summarizing them:

1. MOSFET regulators are a bit more efficient but should not be used with LFP batteries.

2. SCR regulators are a traditional proven solution for most applications and can be used with all battery chemistries.

The ESR New Model regulator at GTM appears to be an ElectroSport ESR530 which is SCR technology and I believe to a 90% likelihood is a direct replacement for the MG V7/V9 regulator.  ElectroSport's website shows the ESR530 to be direct replacement for about last 20 years of MG 3-phase (3 alternator wires) regulators.

The ElectroSport ESR439 is MOSFET technology but the wire lengths and connector types don't quite seem to match the ESR530 so it's probably not a direct replacement for the MG regulator.

So there's a bit of a change to my plans.  I'm going to use the ESR439 (I have the tools and skills to fabricate Molex-style connectors) with the MG battery (probably a FLA/AGM) that was properly prepared by Cadre.  Of course connector cleaning and sealing.  And now I have to find a new home for my Shorai LFX21A6-BS12.