Norge Booster Plug , Sprint air filter and snorkel removal

[blackcat]

So I guess the burning question is..
What was the mpg before the buggerising around ?

Honestly, I don't remember but it certainly wasn't any better than that mileage and I don't remember how long I had that thing on there before it was yanked. Certainly not as many miles as you have on your Norge, but my 07 is in the 60,000 plus range. The bike is basically worthless in it's current state of mileage though it looks perfectly fine, but if I've done some serious damage by sporting that FatDuc then it will just get parted out.

[Nick]

That is about the same gas mileage that I was getting on my Norge when I used the same device on my Norge.

Wow!! On my '07 Norge, with 75,068 miles I average 41.4 mpg. And, believe me, I have tried all the tricks of the trade/experts. Only once I got 50 mpg, and that was in southern Virginia, using non-ethanol premium. I think I've got to slow down 

BTW, now it's back to stock, with a new map and Mistral can, and runs great!

[Bulldog9]

Interesting thread.... 

Here's my take. After a glorious conversion to Moto Guzzi via a 2007 Griso, I bought a 2014 Norge with 800 miles for a steal. It was a 'sick' bike, and wouldn't rev over 6K rpm. Short end, the intake cam was off by 1 sprocket.

Took almost 1K miles to get it sorted, tried everything imaginable, new plug caps (and plugs), then coils, then wires, stock map refresh, TB sync, removed evap system, then Beetle map, active monitoring with guzzi diag. I was near MI at the time, and Micah and Jason (great Guzzi Techs) couldnt figure it out. To my good fortune, Pete had a Stelvio in his shop with a similar problem and ended up being a cam off one tooth. Took it to MI and confirmed that was the problem (thanks Pete!). Good to go.....

Once that was sorted, I found I was not thrilled with the overall responsiveness of the Norge engine as compared to the 4V Griso. Sure the over 6K surge and power were better, but other than that, the motor sounded and felt flat and less satisfying than the Griso.

I spent the next 2 years and 7K miles adapting, changing, tinkering before it was finally dialed in. I removed the Catalytic convertor and put on Ago Y pipe, took off snorkel, and did probably 4 adjustments to the Beetle Map (thanks Mark!) Finally, the bike was spot on perfect. I ended up putting the snorkel back on, motor sounded and responded better with it on.

TWO things I would NOT do or even consider in all the 'playing' was to put in a rock strainer for an air filter, or a plug to fool the 02 sensor. Why? after 40 years of wrenching and observing on cars and motorcycles, I've seen BOTH do damage to a motor. Significant upper valve train wear and carb clogging, cyl scoring over fueling, and several other things mentioned above. True, most of the damage from the gauze/oil air filters is from improper oiling, but over time, other than 'sounding cooler' the high flow filters alone are problematic (and expensive). *Not familiar with the sprint filter.

Now as for 50+ MPG on a Norge........... Well, I've seen that, going downhill....... Over 10K miles, best average I ever got was 44mpg during a very sedate day of 40-45mph riding on my tour to Nova Scotia. This was measured with GPS mileage and gallons calculated at the pump, not the odometer and computer, it always read high. My average MPG was always 38-41 otherwise, but I tend to get less MPG than others due to being harder on throttle. Heck, I rarely get more than 45mpg on my V7.

You are free to do with your bike as you please. This isn't an issue of 'purist ideology' it is wise experienced counsel. You don't have to heed, but your'e fooling yourself to ignore it.

[blackcat]

#1. This is an 07 Norge, not an 8 valve Norge which doesn’t get as good of gas mileage for obvious reasons. #2 My mileage was at a more sedate speed of 60-65mph and higher speeds did not see that kind of mileage but nothing in the 30’s range either at higher speeds. Also, I weigh 145 lbs on a good day.

[Rough Edge racing]

I appreciate all the reply's advice,tips and warnings of catastropic damage to my Guzzi I'm here to learn all I can about these bikes . I also like to get as many opinions as I can I don't believe everything I read or hear especially on CNN . There is a lot of propaganda out there everyone has a opinion or a agenda and sometimes it's hard to find the truth . I've been racing,riding and working on motocycles since 1972 and have owned more than 50 bikes mostly sportbikes . I just found out last week about the booster plug device some like it some don't the biggest complaint I heard was it make the bike run rich . I put new plugs in the Guzzi and went on a long test ride then did a plug check . The plugs show that it's running more lean than rich so I checked my V7III plugs for comparison they all looked more lean than rich .

Those plugs above are not necessarily lean. Notice the dark deposits on the screw shell. You need to look deep inside with an otoscope device to check the mixture. Modern fuels and ignition systems do not color plus like they did years

[guzzisteve]

Three pages of hounding a guy, can't you see it makes no diff. It's his bike, he can trash it if he wants. More work for someone like me!!

BUT, if you want reality, put a sniffer in the pipe & watch the percentage. 

At some point this will turn into a RED TRIANGLE OF DEATH thread.

[bobbyfromnc]

Move over I wanna good seat to witness the spectacle about to unfold 

LOL... Me too

[moto-uno]

 ^You're a little late getting here  . Peter

[ampm7]

I have used the Boosterplug on two bikes that I have owned. Neither of the bikes suffered any negative consequences for a lot of miles and continuing. If I could put a EJK fuel controller on the Eldorado 1400 then I would eliminate the Boosterplug and go with that as it is the most user friendly fuel module out there. But, unfortunately they don't make one for the 1400 or any of the Guzzi's except the 1200 sport. And besides, I'm in California which is under CARB rules. (That didn't stop me from purchasing 4 of them for different bikes through EBay). I know one thing, my 2016 Eldo runs great! As my dad used to say "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

[lazlokovacs]

what dusty said... the thing you're buying and plugging into your bike is just a 50c resistor!!!

[oldbike54]

 Pete explained to me in an E mail that the computer will in fact trim around the spoofer in a few miles , in other words , after a short period of time that 50 cent resister isn't doing anything . This is based on research done using computers and sniffers , not some seat of the pants testing method . Belief is a powerful thing , but in this case your butt dyno is just not accurate .

 As for any claims of increased mileage , consider this . The spoofer is adding fuel , don't know about the laws of physics in your exact location , but in most areas adding fuel will NOT increase mileage , it will decrease it . Alchemy always loses to physics .

 The funny thing is , a beetlemap is cheaper than a booster plug , and you receive actual real time help from a very knowledgeable expert , someone who doesn't make any crazy internet claims about a product making you sexier or smarter .

 Dusty

[PJPR01]

So...we've gone from the spoofer will cause over fueling, which will wash the cylinder walls to an eventual engine failure to now...

The ECU will in short order compensate for the spoofer and essentially neutralize the impact of said, afore mentioned spoofer.

That being the case, there shouldn't be any long term impacts...

Simple If....Then statement...it's either the first or the second...can't be both.

 

[John A]

So...we've gone from the spoofer will cause over fueling, which will wash the cylinder walls to an eventual engine failure to now...

The ECU will in short order compensate for the spoofer and essentially neutralize the impact of said, afore mentioned spoofer.

That being the case, there shouldn't be any long term impacts...

Simple If....Then statement...it's either the first or the second...can't be both.






It’s not that simple if you contemplate the variables
 

[oldbike54]

So...we've gone from the spoofer will cause over fueling, which will wash the cylinder walls to an eventual engine failure to now...

The ECU will in short order compensate for the spoofer and essentially neutralize the impact of said, afore mentioned spoofer.

That being the case, there shouldn't be any long term impacts...

Simple If....Then statement...it's either the first or the second...can't be both.

 

 It depends on the age of the bike Paul , newer ones will trim around the spoofer , earlier models with less sophisticated ECU's won't . Sorry , this is coming from the guys who work with this stuff everyday .

 Dusty

[beetle]

Let me explain.

Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight. If folks want to use booster plugs, fatducs, or any other black box gizmo that spoofs the ECU, modifies injector pulses, aligns your zygotes, attracts unicorns or repels weasels, go for it. I don't care.


The booster plug spoofs the ECU by modifying the signal from the intake air temperature sensor. Thus, the ECU reads the intake air temp as lower than actual. The map has an pressure-air-temperature correction table. It's a look-up table. The real-time injector pulse width is corrected by a factor determined by the air and (for CARC bikes) ambient pressure. Later models have MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensors, but they are outside the scope of this discussion. The booster plug directly affects the actual intake air temperature reading, therefore directly affecting the value read from the look-up table. When the intake air temperature is low, the mixture is enriched, when it's high, it's not as rich. Got it?

The ECU operates in two modes. Closed Loop and Open Loop. Closed Loop is when the lambda (O2) probe is actively affecting the real-time pulse width. Typically, Closed Loop is only active below 4000 RPM, and ONLY when the engine temperature is above 55°C, and ONLY when the intake air temperature is above a set value ~19°C. The ECU only trims the fuel in the Closed Loop area when the throttle is steady for a predetermined time, ie cruise. Above 4000 RPM, the ECU operates in Open Loop

Now, if the booster plug is set to spoof the temperature by, say -10°, then Closed Loop will not activate if the intake air temperature is read as 9°. The temperature look-up table will therefore cause a more enriched mixture. Therefore, in cooler ambient temperatures, the reported intake temperature may never get above 19°. Ergo, no Closed Loop. In warmer temperatures, or on a longer ride, the reported intake air temperature may go above 19°, thus activating Closed Loop. Don't forget, the engine heats up the airbox as well. Intake temperature is never the same as ambient temperature once the engine is warm. In this case, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the window in which Closed Loop is active is narrowed somewhat.


If you install a booster plug, the entire RPM range is enriched by the spoofed signal. For most later model Guzzi's, including all the CARC series, the mapping above 5000 RPM is stupid rich. This is where the danger of over-fuelling lurks. The booster plug just adds fuel to an already rich condition.

There is absolutely no way you can improve mileage with a booster plug. It's physics, Jim.

[beetle]

  Beetle. I think I posted you before about taking this spoofing crap too seriously. Dealing with ignorant, less knowledgeable people is usually      fruitless unless they want to learn. Back in the '30s and after the 2nd World War there were a lot of  adds for  milage gizzmos and 100 MPG carburetors.  They sold like hot cakes. P.T. Barnum, the circus guy, said there is a fool born every minute, I think its' more often. I've Known   many highly educated people who had zero common sense, who subscribed to many of societies snake oil remedies. Beetle, back off, relax, and understand that the majority of humanity is ignorant and uneducatable. The saddest part of this discussion is that these creatures are allowed to vote.

Wow. Please read my post again. I don't care what people do to their bikes. A few posts up there was this:

So...we've gone from the spoofer will cause over fueling, which will wash the cylinder walls to an eventual engine failure to now...

The ECU will in short order compensate for the spoofer and essentially neutralize the impact of said, afore mentioned spoofer.

That being the case, there shouldn't be any long term impacts...

Simple If....Then statement...it's either the first or the second...can't be both.

I was trying to explain. I'm more than happy to piss off and never post another reasonable explanation again.

Thanks for reading.

[Bulldog9]

Let me explain.

Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight. If folks want to use booster plugs, fatducs, or any other black box gizmo that spoofs the ECU, modifies injector pulses, aligns your zygotes, attracts unicorns or repels weasels, go for it. I don't care.


The booster plug spoofs the ECU by modifying the signal from the intake air temperature sensor. Thus, the ECU reads the intake air temp as lower than actual. The map has an pressure-air-temperature correction table. It's a look-up table. The real-time injector pulse width is corrected by a factor determined by the air and (for CARC bikes) ambient pressure. Later models have MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensors, but they are outside the scope of this discussion. The booster plug directly affects the actual intake air temperature reading, therefore directly affecting the value read from the look-up table. When the intake air temperature is low, the mixture is enriched, when it's high, it's not as rich. Got it?

The ECU operates in two modes. Closed Loop and Open Loop. Closed Loop is when the lambda (O2) probe is actively affecting the real-time pulse width. Typically, Closed Loop is only active below 4000 RPM, and ONLY when the engine temperature is above 55°C, and ONLY when the intake air temperature is above a set value ~19°C. The ECU only trims the fuel in the Closed Loop area when the throttle is steady for a predetermined time, ie cruise. Above 4000 RPM, the ECU operates in Open Loop

Now, if the booster plug is set to spoof the temperature by, say -10°, then Closed Loop will not activate if the intake air temperature is read as 9°. The temperature look-up table will therefore cause a more enriched mixture. Therefore, in cooler ambient temperatures, the reported intake temperature may never get above 19°. Ergo, no Closed Loop. In warmer temperatures, or on a longer ride, the reported intake air temperature may go above 19°, thus activating Closed Loop. Don't forget, the engine heats up the airbox as well. Intake temperature is never the same as ambient temperature once the engine is warm. In this case, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the window in which Closed Loop is active is narrowed somewhat.


If you install a booster plug, the entire RPM range is enriched by the spoofed signal. For most later model Guzzi's, including all the CARC series, the mapping above 5000 RPM is stupid rich. This is where the danger of over-fuelling lurks. The booster plug just adds fuel to an already rich condition.

There is absolutely no way you can improve mileage with a booster plug. It's physics, Jim.

Sir, I lift my steaming mug of the black water of life to you................ .

[Huzo]

Beetle, I hope I didn't piss you off. Your posts are the most educational and entertaining on this site. Keep 'em coming. Horst.

Well...
Equal best.

[Bulldog9]

  Beetle. I think I posted you before about taking this spoofing crap too seriously. Dealing with ignorant, less knowledgeable people is usually      fruitless unless they want to learn. Back in the '30s and after the 2nd World War there were a lot of  adds for  milage gizzmos and 100 MPG carburetors.  They sold like hot cakes. P.T. Barnum, the circus guy, said there is a fool born every minute, I think its' more often. I've Known   many highly educated people who had zero common sense, who subscribed to many of societies snake oil remedies.

So you mean the booster plug, magnets on my fuel lines, E3 special spark plugs and open topped air filter arent going to work? Man..... I'm bummed............

Totally unrelated, I had a buddy in High school that had a 1978 AMC Pacer that had a strange looking carb on a straight 6, got no kidding 50PMG.... He bought it from a buddy who's dad worked for AMC and had it from new. Rumor had it he finagled to get a hold of a test car with an 'experimental' carburetor design. Was great fun.

[Nick]

Let me explain.

Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight. If folks want to use booster plugs, fatducs, or any other black box gizmo that spoofs the ECU, modifies injector pulses, aligns your zygotes, attracts unicorns or repels weasels, go for it. I don't care.


The booster plug spoofs the ECU by modifying the signal from the intake air temperature sensor. Thus, the ECU reads the intake air temp as lower than actual. The map has an pressure-air-temperature correction table. It's a look-up table. The real-time injector pulse width is corrected by a factor determined by the air and (for CARC bikes) ambient pressure. Later models have MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensors, but they are outside the scope of this discussion. The booster plug directly affects the actual intake air temperature reading, therefore directly affecting the value read from the look-up table. When the intake air temperature is low, the mixture is enriched, when it's high, it's not as rich. Got it?

The ECU operates in two modes. Closed Loop and Open Loop. Closed Loop is when the lambda (O2) probe is actively affecting the real-time pulse width. Typically, Closed Loop is only active below 4000 RPM, and ONLY when the engine temperature is above 55°C, and ONLY when the intake air temperature is above a set value ~19°C. The ECU only trims the fuel in the Closed Loop area when the throttle is steady for a predetermined time, ie cruise. Above 4000 RPM, the ECU operates in Open Loop

Now, if the booster plug is set to spoof the temperature by, say -10°, then Closed Loop will not activate if the intake air temperature is read as 9°. The temperature look-up table will therefore cause a more enriched mixture. Therefore, in cooler ambient temperatures, the reported intake temperature may never get above 19°. Ergo, no Closed Loop. In warmer temperatures, or on a longer ride, the reported intake air temperature may go above 19°, thus activating Closed Loop. Don't forget, the engine heats up the airbox as well. Intake temperature is never the same as ambient temperature once the engine is warm. In this case, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the window in which Closed Loop is active is narrowed somewhat.


If you install a booster plug, the entire RPM range is enriched by the spoofed signal. For most later model Guzzi's, including all the CARC series, the mapping above 5000 RPM is stupid rich. This is where the danger of over-fuelling lurks. The booster plug just adds fuel to an already rich condition.

There is absolutely no way you can improve mileage with a booster plug. It's physics, Jim.

Thank you, Sir!!! 

[kirby1923]

My .02c.

Make no mistake the booster device wasn't for mileage improvement , it was to slightly fatten the fuel/air ratio for smoother running.
When the BMW oil head came out there was wide spread complaints that the engine had a low throttle setting "surge" and this (and other) devices was aimed at a quick fix for the perceived "surge" problem.

I helped install a couple of the devices and they had a remote air temp probe that was mounted somewhere in the free air areas of the machines (1100cc bikes). Most installers agreed that it cured the "surge" problem on the 1100 by making it a bit fatter. Mileage was not a factor. Never heard of any mechanical,(cylinder washing?),problems even w/high mileage use. If it was so fat to make that happen I wonder if the engine would even run correctly.

BMW apparently "solved" the problem? on the 1150 machines by adding a two spark plug head.

I run my CX a bit "fat" w/ mechanical carbs 'cause I like to run an air cooled engine a bit fat across the board.
One fellow I helped w/install of the "fat device" told me that even if a new map was available he would be paranoid about trying to down load a program to his stock ECU.

The "fat device" is simple, cheap and easy to install, about I hour for my first and much less for the second. (also to remove if not satisfied).

We need to remember that "snake oil" for one person is "medicine" for another. I've been a user of various snake oil(s) in my lifetime including the frightful "marvel mystery oil" in my gas and oil...oh the humanity.

:-)

[GRGuzzi]

Hi friends
I was reading this thread and I search a little bit only from curiosity because I am
convinced that for our bikes, the beetle map is the way to go, I have already installed on my V7 II and I am super happy.

Anyway I found the following link with some interesting technical information.
https://www.monocilindro.com/2018/12/27/make-your-own-booster-plug-for-your-ducati/

[moto-uno]

  Great to hear from Beetle and a more thorough explanation , I appreciate that he didn't add hearsay .
  Makes my mechanics'  heart happy  . Peter

[Idontwantapickle]

OP wished for the experience of someone who had tried one and removed it. That's me.
Back in the Dark Ages there were few choices on how to improve the fueling of a CARC. I installed a fatduc.
I'll give y'all a moment to roll your eyes.


Ok. So then what happened? Well you have to adjust it! The adjustments ranged from "Runs like Shite" to "What's that Red Triangle?" matched up with varying degrees of increased fuel consumption. Did I mention that it didn't really run better? It didn't.
Now the good part! P. T. Barnum was right! I sold it!
Along came beetle and molly with maps to cure our fueling woes using science and, being a sucker for science and things that can be proven rather than just believed, I installed a map corrected for my Norge.
Night and Day difference.
Night and Day.
I'm not judgin' and you can farkle and tweak to your hearts content.
But you've been warned by the experts. Rock strainers and spoofers are engine wreckers.
And that is the science.

Hunter

[beetle]

A bit more.

The FatDuc is an O2 or lambda signal manipulator. It spoofs the O2 probe signal, emulating a lean condition. The booster plug spoofs the intake air temperature signal, emulating cold air. Thus, the basis on which they operate is different, and they cannot be directly compared.

IMNSHO, the FatDuc has the potential to do most harm.

[chrisfer]

IMNSHO, the FatDuc has the potential to do most harm.

Why ?
This one just acts in the closed loop, no ?

[beetle]

Why ?
This one just acts in the closed loop, no ?

Yes, only in closed loop. Let me explain. The FatDuc spoofs the Lambda signal. In closed loop, the ECU trims the fuel to between 14.5 & 15.1 AFR. If the spoofer is set to a point where the signal is indicating >15.1 all the time, the ECU will add fuel (up to the set limit). That may result in actual AFR's in the low 12's (worse case scenario). This is bad. There will be no warning or error from the ECU.

[chrisfer]

If there were O2 sensors calibrated to 13A/F, it would be ideal, right?

[beetle]

13.2 for the 2V engine.
13.0 for the 8V.

It can be done with a wideband sensor. I did it when I was running a 1200. It's a lot of stuffing about, however.

[oldbike54]

13.2 for the 2V engine.
13.0 for the 8V.

It can be done with a wideband sensor. I did it when I was running a 1200. It's a lot of stuffing about, however.

 Have always been a minimalist , show me the simplest way to effect a direct fix that doesn't require additional hardware and we're good. Some years ago an acquaintance installed some aftermarket gizmo on his K1200 LT BMW that failed out on the road several hundred miles from home . A BMW shop in Denver worked on it for a couple of hours removing said aftermarket device and he rode it home . Then the genius ordered the same aftermarket gizmo and him and his genius friend installed it again , with the same result . He cussed BMW , cussed the sky , cussed his kids , yelled at everyone but the right person , which was of course him .

 Dusty