Author Topic: Mamma Mia! 850 T3  (Read 2917 times)

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2020, 03:29:22 PM »








So, while none of my T3 is pretty, one real eyesore for me was the red shocks. Yes, I know they're iconic aftermarket Marzocchis but they're tatty and the red doesn't match anything.

Took them off this morning, took them apart (cable tie spring compressors... if it works don't knock it), stripped off all the loose paint and corrosion, gave the bodies a coat of primer and satin black, cleaned up the collars, and reassembled them...

Good news is they both work perfectly, don't leak and have great damping in both directions.

Can't refit them, need a set of new bushes...

« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 04:39:52 PM by Stu »

Offline berniebee

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2020, 03:56:31 PM »
The shocks look 107.5 % better now! 

Offline Klinkhammer

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2020, 01:41:09 PM »
Very nice.
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Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2020, 02:46:39 AM »
Spent a chunk of change Friday ordering some of the bits to do the exhaust (stainless clamps – mine are horribly rusty and mismatched), Brakes (new innards for master cylinders and seals for calipers, bleed nipples, etc.), carbs (rebuild kits), front tank rubbers (mine are perished) and a new ignition switch (again, don’t F it up). All told, about £300’s worth. Bloody scary for a few little bits, but it’ll give me some stuff to be getting on with. Probably should add a new set of brake pipes… it already has braided hoses all over, but the fittings are rusty… no, keep reminding me this isn’t a resto.

Started on the exhaust Friday. Managed to get both silencers off easily enough with a bit of soaking in WD40. Took headers and crossover off the bike complete. Left header came off with a bit of effort, right is putting up a hell of a fight. I left it soaking overnight to no effect – blowtorch next! De-rusted them with a pot scourer… chrome is dulled where it still existed, but more consistent overall and at least 95% of the rust is gone. Lots of pitting. I now understand why exhaust wrap has become a fashion… would cover a multitude of sins! Will leave as is for now…

Fought the shocks back on Saturday, another comedy of errors… and still wrong. The reason I damaged one of the bushes taking it off is because the mounting pins on the frame are oversize. Someone’s plated the frame at some point, and three out of four of the pins are plated and about 0.3mm over the nominal 14mm. The one on the final drive which obviously didn’t go to the platers is 13.95mm and fine! Anyway… the shocks are on… a lot of filing and sanding, three original bushes and one bodged from a thin sleeve bearing bush and a smaller OD shock bush. For now it's tight and solid! From past experience, 30 year old shocks will die pretty soon after being forced back into use, so I’ll sort it all out when needs must.

Keep reminding myself of the plan… get it back on the road, useable and reliable. And don’t worry too much about what it looks like for now.

Is it a coincidence that I just reopened this and an advert for header wrap appeared? Maybe it's destiny...  :wink:

Oh, and this arrived...



« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 03:10:48 AM by Stu »

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2020, 02:46:39 AM »

Offline rutgery

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2020, 03:28:36 AM »
Nice work on the bike, new brake caliper components will definitely do it some good. It's hard to see from the picture, but your calipers are the twin bleed type with chrome pistons right? Are you upgrading to the alu brake pistons? I don't know the quality of the marzocchi shocks but the original koni ones regularly used on old tonti frames seem to be almost indistructable unless seriously neglected. Your's might be as well. At least they look much nicer now!

Looking forward to your progress! Also, you guys have way nicer licence plates than in europe (or the Netherlands at least). I think these will look very nice on the bike.  :thumb:
'82 Moto Guzzi G5
'89 V7 Sport replica from a Cali 3
'67 V7 700 #181 from the production line

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2020, 09:05:06 AM »
Thanks... parcel just arrived with caliper seals... still a couple more to come from all over EU. Yes, twin bleed type. Haven't ordered pistons at this point... will have a look at them first.

Had Marzocchis on my old Ducati. They were working perfectly well one day and seized and bent the next! They feel perfect at the moment, so who knows.

License plate is an old style one - only for "historic" vehicles over 40 years old.  Standard ones are reflective yellow and not pretty!

Offline berniebee

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2020, 04:33:00 PM »
Coming along!  :thumb:
I share your (fiscal) pain. I ordered a few parts for my SP1000, it was a rather large sum for a pretty small box of parts.

If the brake pads aren't separating from the metal backing plate, it's probably fine to reuse them. BTW, on my bike the rear caliper (F09) has plain steel pistons which were rusty and needed replacement, but the two front sets  (F08) are coated and in perfect condition. I will order new caliper kits and MC kits too -eventually. I need to let my credit card cool down!

Just curious, how does a vintage license plate work in England? Does a vintage plate restrict where and how often you can ride? We have historic plates available in the province of Ontario (Every one of the Canadian provinces have their own plates and rules.) and they are much less expensive than regular plates. But the restrictions on where and when one can ride  with historic plates makes them useless for someone who wants to ride the bike regularly. They are intended for people who ride seldomly and then only to specific exhibitions, events, parades, etc.

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2020, 02:22:10 AM »
Bike already has three sets of new EBC pads, fitted by seller, so no problems there!

Historic registration seems to be all advantages... no road tax, no annual MoT test, no restrictions (as far as I am aware). Plate is purely cosmetic... I could fit the standard yellow one if I wanted and no one would know the difference. Only vehicles over 40 years and registered as historic are allowed to wear the old style black and white plates, so they're pretty rare on the road.

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2020, 05:46:16 AM »
Bit of an update... much has gone on since I was last here.

Started cleaning things up a bit and am pleasantly surprised how well it's scrubbing up. There are no plans to make anything as-new, but the Borranis, final drive and engine cases are responding well to a bit of a deep clean and the exhausts now look suitably used but solid. Biggest surprise was the nickel plated frame, which cleans up nicely, and looks suitably shiny. Jury's out on whether it's staying in the long term, but it's presentable for now.

I've removed a few of the PO's 'orrible black bits... his attitude to anything slightly dodgy seems to have been cover it with thick gooey black paint. The crash bars got removed and parked under the bench. The seat grab rail would have too, except that the seat hinges on it, so I managed to buy a reasonable chrome one and it's been replaced. Footrest hangers came off and got a coat from a silver aerosol. Two bits left that need attention; the rear light bracket (needs replacing with a half decent chrome one) and the fork sliders which shouldn't be impossible to clean up when I get to the front end. Oh, and it needs some new horns... the Voxbells are a) horrible, b) painted black, and c) silent.

The other nasty black bits were the tank and side panels… which are currently baking in the sun outside having been stripped and resprayed over the course of the last ten days. They're looking rather good, despite my cheapskate addiction to Halfords rattle cans, somewhat closer to original (although not completely so), and much less depressing. No photos yet, I'll wait till it's reassembled. You'll have to wait a week or so as I'm letting the paint harden properly and need to rebuild the front master cylinder (and caliper) so it no longer drips brake fluid onto the tank!

Spoiler... having just got my V5 back with "Historic Vehicle" on it, I've now got to send it back again to change the colour.

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2020, 03:28:14 AM »
As promised, front caliper and master cylinder came apart last night. Who decided at the factory to use a master cylinder that needs to be slid off the bars and requires removal of throttle and switchgear?  Stuff that... I rebuilt it in place on the bars! One buggerance… it's been broken and welded at some point where the lever attaches, which has left the entrance to the bore somewhat obscured by the weld. The cylinder itself is OK, but sliding the washer and locking ring into position from the open end was impossible (the fitted ones were severely bent out of shape by a PO hammering them in - animal!). Some intervention with small round file on the weld cleared the path and all went back together fine. It's all good in terms of operation, but I may be tempted to replace it, especially if it still has a tendency to drip! Cap and seal will be renewed; I think that's where it was leaking from.

Caliper was also stripped and new seals put in... I think the whole operation was a bit pointless; it has nice new Teflon pistons in and the seals were soft and probably recently replaced during the PO's minor resurrection. Anyway, all done and I know what's in there now. Tonight's job  - new fluid and get it bled.   

I haven't found the courage to start on the linked system yet, but I need to - the dust seals on those calipers basically fell out when I popped the pads out.

Offline rutgery

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2020, 04:45:06 AM »
Hey Stu, nice to see you continuing the improvements to the bike! I'm very curious to how the painting turned out. With proper preperations you can get very nice results. Did you apply the decals and/or emblems back onto the covers and tank?

It's always sad to see that you're in the process of replacing something that wasn't necesary, I had the same experience checking the distribution chain tensioner in my G5 which was apparently already replaced by the previous owner :rolleyes: Don't worry about starting on the linked system, it really isn't that big of a deal. Only the bleeding can be a bit of a chore but a little help from someone else can go a long way. pressuring the system overnight to bleed also works wonders.

I'm looking forward to the pictures! :gotpics:
'82 Moto Guzzi G5
'89 V7 Sport replica from a Cali 3
'67 V7 700 #181 from the production line

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2020, 05:17:50 AM »




Only the bleeding can be a bit of a chore

It's only the bleeding I'm worried about!

Quote
I'm looking forward to the pictures!

Did you apply the decals and/or emblems back onto the covers and tank?

 Well, since you ask nicely... here's a spoiler... Tank obviously not sitting quite right, but I couldn't resist popping them on for two seconds last night to have a look...  I have to sort the seat out - the base is a bit mangled and was scratching the back of the tank before.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 05:42:01 AM by Stu »

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2020, 02:13:09 AM »
So, the front brake was a bit of a nightmare... bought new seal kits from Gutsibits which were pattern parts, not Brembo. As I said above, the caliper already seemed to have good bits in, but I swapped them for the new pattern parts to be sure. I spent an hour or so trying to bleed it, and eventually got some pressure, at which point fluid started pissing past one of the new piston seals in the caliper.  :sad: Stripped it again last night, replaced all the seals with the "good" ones I'd taken out and it has bled up nicely and is not leaking. Now to have a discussion with Gutsibits. I have two more sets of those seals to go in the linked system, and the last thing I want to do is do it more than once. I've never, ever had a problem with pattern seals before... they've always worked perfectly. Had to be a first time, I suppose  :rolleyes:

The next job... try to turn this into a seat  :shocked:







« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 04:52:05 AM by Stu »

Offline rutgery

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2020, 02:38:10 PM »
That paintwork is looking nice :thumb: Too bad about the brake caliper seals.. Luckely you have working ones and don't have to wait for a new order to come in.

What's that about the seat, that looks fine to me, nice and comfy :evil:
Were you able to source a new seat cover or are you going to reuse the one that was on it when you bought the bike? It might be different in the US but in Europe these seats seem to have disappeared, making finding replacement seats or even covers very hard.. My G5 seat pan looked like that as well but I've replaced it with a Stucci plastic pan with the original foam on top and a new seat cover, might be something to consider if these are available second hand.

Here's a picture of my ''as good as new'' original seat pan;


'82 Moto Guzzi G5
'89 V7 Sport replica from a Cali 3
'67 V7 700 #181 from the production line

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2020, 03:05:17 PM »
Happy with paint. Not the easiest one I’ve ever done, but turned out ok eventually.

Pan is pretty solid. The seat is a sofa off a SP/G5/convert and not what I want. I’ve managed to buy a nice moulded seat cover for a T3 from “old school covers” on eBay. Hopefully the foam will cut down to accept the new narrower cover. If not, there are new foams on eBay too.

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2020, 02:07:42 PM »
So, after several weeks fiddling on and off in the garage, she saw the light of day today and went for a first 20 mile shakedown ride. Still lots I want to do to her, but she's on the road.







I've got most of the bits to go through the linked brake system, rebuild the forks (and sort out the long stanchions) and rebuild the carbs... all still to do.

Offline rutgery

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2020, 03:56:02 AM »
That looks great, nice work! :thumb:
'82 Moto Guzzi G5
'89 V7 Sport replica from a Cali 3
'67 V7 700 #181 from the production line

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2020, 09:00:18 PM »
Very nice. :thumb:

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2020, 04:29:43 AM »
Time for an update.

The test ride I mentioned in the last post went well, everything seemed to work (at least everything that was fitted... ) and the old girl went quite well considering it's still set up the way it was put away 30 years ago. The one thing I was really trying to avoid dealing with was the massive oil leak pissing out twixt engine and gearbox. Anyway after basking in the glory of having a complete bike for a week or two, I admitted to myself it wasn't going any further until it was fixed and pulled it apart again.

Crabbed the frame, pulled off the gearbox. There's clear evidence that it was leaking from both the rear crank seal and the front (and rear) gearbox seals. The clutch plates, while in good condition, were the old design Surflex jobs that have about 10mm wide sintered friction surfaces and wear the metal contact surfaces away. Luckily I'd caught them in time, only the intermediate plates (they use two thin ones for some reason) were worn too badly to reuse, and thanks to a paragraph in Guzziology about the subject, I was confident to just replace the clutch plates (Newfren) and intermediate plate along with new springs and flywheel bolts.

Borrowed some tools from previously unknown contacts on facebook (massive thanks, guys) and changed all the offending seals and a few o rings etc., replaced the breather gasket, checked over everything else and put it back together... after much fiddling I managed to get the gearbox aligned with the clutch and back together with the engine. Haven't gone any further yet, but did connect the clutch cable... It certainly feels like it's working properly.

On the way back together, I've got all the bits to rebuild the carbs (new choke plungers, float valves, o rings and gaskets). I also want to check the timing (she's still on points... I'm leaving it that way for now... and yes I did get the flywheel back in the right place!) and check through the rest of the ignition system. While the bike was running well at sensible speeds the once I really opened her up I got a bit of a misfire/resistance. Probably carburation, I would think, but I want to make sure all is working fine.

Must buy myself a strobe timing light... gave my last one away 20 years ago!



« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 05:02:33 AM by Stu »

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2020, 04:17:54 AM »
So, I've moved on a bit from above.

Timing light arrived from an ebay buy and I checked the ignition timing... all good, no adjustment required. I did pop the points plate out, strip the advance /retard thingy, and put a bit of Copperslip in there to make sure it was all free and moving properly.

Stripped and rebuilt the carbs with new choke plungers (one was seized which may explain the hesitancy I was experiencing), new float valves, new inlet filters, etc. They're reasonably unworn and clean. Reset the floats which were miles out. Put it all back together and set the carbs up with the Carbtune that's been on the shelf for 15 years and used about 4 times.

Wow... now running beautifully smoothly on the first test run and going nicely. Until I stopped and couldn't get it to restart... A bit of a rest and wiggling and she fired up reluctantly and headed home. I charged the battery and checked the bike was charging... yes. Cleaned terminals on battery cables and solenoid. Went out for another test run. Exactly the same issue... Came home, removed the starter motor and took it to bits. Dirty contacts in the solenoid, dirty commutator, dry bushes with no lubrication whatsoever... Cleaned and lubed everything and reassembled it (about four times... should have taken better notes on the way in!) and put it back on the bike. Bike seemed happier starting.

Tried a longer test run this time, out across Salisbury Plain and Stonehenge... about 75 mile round trip. Bike was running beautifully and fired up OK after a stop 10 miles in and again 5 miles later. As I was at the furthest point from home, just before I passed Stonehenge, the clutch cable snapped slowing for a changing traffic light... I gassed it and went through a couple of seconds after it turned red. And rode home without stopping once... managed to predict all the junctions and lights and got lucky with it. Guzzi gearbox not the easiest I've ever used for clutchless changes... a couple of them went in quietly, most didn't! New cable arrived from Gutsibits yesterday, but was too long and didn't have any adjustment... they're kindly sending me another one FOC today.

Also fitted a new tacho cable and miraculously the tach is working for the first time since I got it.

Last piece of the starting puzzle arrived yesterday in the form of a new Exide AGM battery from Tayna (highly recommended!). I'd kind of decided the old one was probably OK and I probably didn't need it. Boy, was I wrong. The Guzzi now bursts into life at the first touch of the button instead of cranking like an old Morris Minor... we're getting there!



« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 02:04:57 AM by Stu »

Offline rutgery

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2020, 09:21:06 AM »
Very nice work Stu! :drool: Also nice to hear she's seeing the road again. I've always got an extra clutch cable in the pannier just for that scenario. Maybe you can store one underneath the saddle or taped onto the battery?

'82 Moto Guzzi G5
'89 V7 Sport replica from a Cali 3
'67 V7 700 #181 from the production line

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2020, 10:30:50 PM »
Did the cable break at the hand lever? If that's the case, that's often because the bushing is worn out, allowing the lever to wobble. The sharp edge of the lever eats the cable and weakens it. Also, because it's not pulling on the barrel end squarely, it flexes it as well. It's the bushing in the lever.

The ones I've seen also use the wrong bolt - the lever should 'ride' on a solid shank, but instead they always seem to have threads clear to the head. The bushing then rides on the threads which wears the bushing and the bolt threads giving much more slop. I find a bolt with a longer shank then cut the threaded end to length.

Offline Stu

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2020, 03:29:29 AM »
Over a month since the last update and a lot has happened. Was desperate to get out on the bike again before the new clutch cable arrived so I modified the end of the old cable to make a spacer and take up some slack on the too long cable. Works perfectly! Friday lunchtime arrives and I clock out and take the bike for a spin in the late summer sunshine. A perfect afternoon and the bike runs happily for 50 miles or so with no issues. 15 miles from home and I'm getting used to the bike and a bit cheeky. Approaching a row of slow moving cars, I pull out and overtake them. As I get to the front of the queue, the front car (which just happens to be an AC Cobra replica) turns across my path. I instinctively grab a handful of not very effective front brake, can't find the horn button (120 miles on a new bike is not enough to retrain the brain!) and crash into the very pretty Cobra's rear wing. Probably only 10-15 mph but hard enough to hurt. Four weeks ago today, and the swelling has just about gone down! Still kicking myself for being so stupid... Been riding as long as the T3 has been around... I should know better!

Cobra had a bit of surface paint damage (I'd put a sticker over it, but he'll claim a £1000 respray) and Guzzi picks up looking remarkably OK. Two broken plug caps and one broken plug. Bent handlebar. And, I discover later, one bent fork leg (which may have been bent before!). Phone call to my son, who pulls the old plugs off the shelf and some caps off my old Kawasaki and brings them out to me. 10 minutes later, I'm riding it home, and having fun!

If you've been following, you'll know the bike had the wrong fork legs on and lots of gloopy black paint on the sliders, so this little event just brought forward time for a front end rebuild. This has escalated just a bit!

Forks have been stripped, the tubes have been replaced with new ones the right length. The FAC dampers I picked up cheaply have gone in, mostly because they have nice tops... my old ones were a) extended ones to take up the extra length and b) gouged to hell.  The sliders were treated to some more paint stripper, given a light polish and reassembled. Legs look great and are ready to go back in. FAC dampers and existing, presumably standard springs at the moment... we'll see how that works before spending any more money.

I was gifted a set of original chrome headlight brackets by the guy I bought the grab rail from. Not perfect chrome, but very fitting for the rest of the bike. Had to import the support rubbers from the US as no local places had stock. 

Bent handlebars are unfortunately kinked a bit and no way I was going to straighten them. I've ordered a new set but they seem to be coming on a slow boat from somewhere. Taking the old ones off involved removing the original switchgear which is threaded through the bars. The old switches are very, very naff and yet sought after by restorers (of Mk1 Le Mans presumably). I was promptly offered good money for them and relieved to see them go away... Of course, removing the switches involves disconnecting them at the headlight. Some wonderful previous owner, obviously fed up with bad connections, had removed all the connectors and soldered all the wires together... he'd also replaced half the wires with random colour ones, removed the bulb holders in the instruments and soldered the wires straight to bulbs. The resulting wiring in the headlight has to be seen to be believed, looks like an explosion in a spaghetti factory.

Fortunately the main loom plug is till there, and relatively intact (just the kill switch wires soldered together!) so I've disconnected it there, repaired the kill wires, and removed everything forward of that to start again. Bought some new switches (Chinese specials from AliExpress, look like Domino), rewired them with proper wire and Molex plugs, made up a new loom for the headlight connections, bought LEDs for the bulbs, added wiring and warning lights for some indicators. And ordered a new LED headlight... my old one is a Lucas sealed beam in a Suzuki shell so definitely not original. I'll see when it arrives if I want to use the modern LED or go more vintage looking. Either way I'll need a new shell. Replacing all other bulbs with LED.

Oh and someone's selling me a Dyna III ignition, BNIB, for half price. May treat myself to the coils to go with it. Or not... I've spent far too much already this month!

I was going to reassemble the front end last night but stripped head bearings to grease them while it was apart. Of course they are notchy and rusty so a new set has been ordered... at this rate everything in front of the steering head will be new!     

« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 03:55:18 AM by Stu »

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2020, 05:27:49 PM »
Damn! What a way to end the first ride! But you've definitely turned lemons into lemonade.

Coulda been much much worse!

Offline rutgery

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2020, 03:28:45 PM »
That sucks Stu... No serious injuries or pains I hope?

Of course it's also a shame that the bike has damage, especially as you've just gone over it, but I'm sure you'll make it even nicer than it was before
'82 Moto Guzzi G5
'89 V7 Sport replica from a Cali 3
'67 V7 700 #181 from the production line

Offline Glawster

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2020, 01:00:13 PM »
Hi Stu,
I’ve just discovered this thread and enjoyed reading it.  Seems like you are well on the way to having a very nice usable T3.  I’m just up the road in Cheltenham if you’re a sociable type with time on your hands - post lockdown of course!
Cheers,
Derek
1955 Falcone Sport
1973 V7 Sport
2019 V85TT
1955 Moto Parilla Turismo Special

Offline Tkelly

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Re: Mamma Mia! 850 T3
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2020, 03:44:30 PM »
It looks like a g5 seat,the best Guzzi seat of all time.The t3 seat on mine was terrible.Back in the day people were wanting goofy aftermarket seats.I was complaining to the dealer about thet3 seat and he sold me the g5 seat someone left behind for$ 40.

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