Recommissioning a 67 V700

[jacksonracingcomau]

Quietly confident in the 2ls brake, only rolled motorless downhill but controllable lock up sub 10mph, if it was new they’d make you have abs. Feel is perfect,



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Forks,  not so much, sprung for a serious load, even with motor, fuel and passenger, I doubt I’ll ever get 3” travel but at least it doesn’t top out with a bang now.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Hopefully last one is biggest single expenditure, have nearly everything now, just have to throw another 50 hours at it

[rutgery]

Interesting to see you using YSS shocks, any opinion on one manufacturer over the other? Cost wise, YSS certainly is attractive. Also, I'm very much wondering how much weight the lightening of the flywheel has dropped Are you going to lighten the timing gears as well, as they must be pretty heavy?

[jacksonracingcomau]

Interesting to see you using YSS shocks, any opinion on one manufacturer over the other? Cost wise, YSS certainly is attractive. Also, I'm very much wondering how much weight the lightening of the flywheel has dropped Are you going to lighten the timing gears as well, as they must be pretty heavy?

Shocks, like new Guzzis, need the right back up
YSS not just priced right but importer is close and has full inventory of parts
He also services my Ohlins and Wilbers shocks, no reason these can’t live as long, had them on the Lario last weekend, I’m happy enough with them, different springs, settings and ride height. Adjustable is good
Izzy at suspensions r us for any Aussies, new v7’s and v9’s begging for them. Old bikes like this too

Flywheel, will post weights anon but is colossal , v700 one massive
Gears are heavy esp crank one but is not the diameter of flywheel so won’t make as much difference, it’s gearchanges and engine braking I’m adjusting, not for high engine revs, will keep it as 6500 redline
I remember Duilio Agostini showing me broken helical gears from. V7 sport, the real reason chains went in, apparently straight cut gears were considered too noisy. Odd because in my bb’s with alloy straight cut they are nearly silent, after first few k miles they bed in.
In any other engine I’d use them, restraining myself here, std valves, cam, rods and timing gears really because they are like new and just blueprinting Carcano’s original design appeals to me.
Had to be 750 cos I don’t have 700cc pistons but would’ve preferred  original
Even 4 speed is starting to appeal, this has the evenly spaced set, not the later low first and second. I’m going to try pulling really long gearing, ratios work out well, goal is now 70 mp (proper)g —-sub 4litres/100 km

Haven’t chopped the original flywheel either, Stays in my original but rejected box,

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Original flywheel weighs 13 lbs. by itself.

New V700 pistons are available on ebay US, I've used them on two rebuilds.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Moto-Guzzi-V700-NOS-ASSO-PAIR-piston-assemblies-Made-in-Italy-80mm-03510/361687090452

[jacksonracingcomau]

Original flywheel weighs 13 lbs. by itself.

New V700 pistons are available on ebay US, I've used them on two rebuilds.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Moto-Guzzi-V700-NOS-ASSO-PAIR-piston-assemblies-Made-in-Italy-80mm-03510/361687090452

Thanks Charlie, but barrels as much an issue, if I had originals I would’ve replated, as it turned out, I had a pair of 83mm nikasil barrels hiding in plain sight, friend had usable ambo pistons, was path of least resistance.
Next move to measure comp and squish, then make copper gaskets .
Returning it to 700 still possible , I didn’t open crankcase mouth but turned down 83mm barrels so purist can have oe one day. Trying hard not to make it impossible to “restore”
But will turn in my grave when it happens, this one’s my way, lovely to have unmolested to start with, only rust !

[cliffrod]

I like what you're doing and am thinking about the details that might relate to my V700 custom build.   I'm also trying to not destroy mine, either- just in case someone does want to restore it later.

[jacksonracingcomau]

One for tech heads, haven’t done this since lario build but thought I should check numbers on this
Installed valve spring height by book 37–38mm, all in spec 37.3, 37.5, 37.7, 37.06
But springs free length book 48-48010
2 of mine 49mm, the other 2 are under spec
This is where it starts to matter
Book gives 72psi@ 37mm, 132psi @ 28mm
The longer springs actually 140psi @28mm, coilbound by 27.9 but gave me 72 psi @ 37mm
Shorter give me 65/120 but not coilbound till 26mm

Shims swapped in heads could’ve caused big issues, likewise fitting new springs without measuring, if they were longer than specced in orig production no reason to believe nos wouldn’t be same
I’ll compromise them a bit closer than factory did but if anyone gets serious  with a pair of single spring heads, the springs I used in lario (current 1400 oe) I set up so close to these numbers, as they are progressive, you’d end up with a little higher seat pressure to get full lift in spec but a few shims, new retainers and you’d be there.
If this comes apart again that’s what I’ll do.

Pics in no particular order but so glad I bought this tool before I built lario, no engine goes unmeasured now

[jacksonracingcomau]

Haven’t posted for a while now but today I got onto last major recommission, the box that sat for 50 years, thought these pics worth sharing.

Only casualties of peace I’ve found, the rusty selector shaft, one rusty bearing (feels perfect but has to go). Neutral switch body doesn’t want to come out.
Seals hard as knobs of hell




Oddities that got fixed later,
oil slinger maybe never needed but clever anyway
Unpegged speedo drive !
Bush for pushrod seal, I can walk through the gap, no wonder clutch plates were oil soaked.
Caged ball bearing race for thrust bearing
Floating clutch hub

Other than bushes not rollers and shift mechanism is all pretty much as the 5 speed, gears themselves are made to last forever, dogs nicely undercut.
Nice to see a nearly brand new Carcano original, no reason I can see that this can’t be used as intended for next 50 years, can’t say the same for myself , obviously.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

You may know this already, but in case you don't:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_transmission_-_proper_shaft_alignment_for_a_4_speed_transmission.html

[jacksonracingcomau]

You may know this already, but in case you don't:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_transmission_-_proper_shaft_alignment_for_a_4_speed_transmission.html

Thanks Charlie, big shout out to Greg Bender too for all info there.
My pic above matches that drawing pretty well, actually why I took it. No bits flew out prob because I’d read tales of escaping springs etc and blue sheet is there to catch and spot !,

What did confuse me was the number of washers 12214600. I had 1st and 3rd edition spare boots book with none and three but mine had two. Back to thisoldtractor and I got 2nd edition.
Lo and behold ——only 2 of these washers as mine, no washer first gear end.
3 versions below #45/1 as mine. -2 of.  #49 in later one-3 of.
Logic says to use 3, I’m assuming they are only there to stop circlip jumping ship ?
Do you use 3 on all or leave as they come in ?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks Charlie, big shout out to Greg Bender too for all info there.
My pic above matches that drawing pretty well, actually why I took it. No bits flew out prob because I’d read tales of escaping springs etc and blue sheet is there to catch and spot !,

What did confuse me was the number of washers 12214600. I had 1st and 3rd edition spare boots book with none and three but mine had two. Back to thisoldtractor and I got 2nd edition.
Lo and behold ——only 2 of these washers as mine, no washer first gear end.
3 versions below #45/1 as mine. -2 of.  #49 in later one-3 of.
Logic says to use 3, I’m assuming they are only there to stop circlip jumping ship ?
Do you use 3 on all or leave as they come in ?

All the 4 spds. I've worked on have had three of those thrust washers. That includes everything from an early all straight-cut gear 4 spd. to a late all-helical 4 spd.

[jacksonracingcomau]

All the 4 spds. I've worked on have had three of those thrust washers. That includes everything from an early all straight-cut gear 4 spd. to a late all-helical 4 spd.

Thanks again, plot really thickens now, those 3 partsbooks go along with 3 types you mention, mine being #2 with 15/29 straight cut first, helical rest
The three first gears have different part numbers 12214000, 01 and 02

On mine that washer won’t fit behind first, would need to be thinner or last washer thinner
I’m guessing last helical first gear is slightly thinner than mine but unsure difference between #1 first gear and #2 first gear. Both run 15/29 straight cut
All fun and games

[jacksonracingcomau]

This may be of interest to someone ?
The wear on the circlip bothered me so I had to know why this mysterious washer is not on A series, 2 on B series 3 on final edition.
I had to be told but it is bleedin obvious, actually surprising no-one has said.
Thrust, with helical gears, circlip wouldn’t stand a chance but factory believed the straight cut gears would’t be a problem. Hence my “B” series with straight cut first only has two washers/shims behind circlips for 2nd and 3rd.
The factory fitted 3 shim boxes are all helical gears.
But if mine, with SFA miles on it , shows circlip wear you can feel, I couldn’t be happy leaving it this way.
Turns out a model T axle is nearly perfect od and the appropriate hardness, my mate actually quoted rockwell number but I’ve forgotten.
So a  0.045” slice of 100 year old car comes into play, the same .045” taken off bush to restore clearance and Robert becomes mum’s brother !
Picture tells a fousand words




This possibly more useful information
I finally decided to use o rings on clutch pushrod and was about to look for pen to turn into fitting tool, as Charlie has pictured before.
Then I saw the tool sitting there.
Fit o rings on pushrod one at a time, insert with thingamyjig (tech term) that pushes the pushrod. A sample of urine
Pic/fousand words etc



russian image host

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

This possibly more useful information
I finally decided to use o rings on clutch pushrod and was about to look for pen to turn into fitting tool, as Charlie has pictured before.
Then I saw the tool sitting there.
Fit o rings on pushrod one at a time, insert with thingamyjig (tech term) that pushes the pushrod. A sample of urine
Pic/fousand words etc



russian image host

One word of caution here:
Some (most? all?) V700s don't have enough of a "step" in the mainshaft drilling to prevent the o-rings from going on forward towards the clutch. Charley Cole told me this, but being pig-headed I didn't listen. The result? One or more of the o-rings in my V700 have migrated forward and are jamming up clutch action - the clutch is sticking disengaged, finally slowly engaging. Not a huge issue to fix, but one that could have been avoided. Might be best to do a "hybrid" installation: a backing washer or slice off of the plastic sleeve first, then several o-rings.

[jacksonracingcomau]

One word of caution here:
Some (most? all?) V700s don't have enough of a "step" in the mainshaft drilling to prevent the o-rings from going on forward towards the clutch. Charley Cole told me this, but being pig-headed I didn't listen. The result? One or more of the o-rings in my V700 have migrated forward and are jamming up clutch action - the clutch is sticking disengaged, finally slowly engaging. Not a huge issue to fix, but one that could have been avoided. Might be best to do a "hybrid" installation: a backing washer or slice off of the plastic sleeve first, then several o-rings.

Thx again, I’m sure you’ve told others but I missed that
Sticking clutch definitely not good, I won’t be third man to find out, forewarned is forearmed.
This surely explains why factory used conical seals not cheap o rings on 5 speed.
I’ll try and get a measure on step 4 and 5 speed but I’ve never had a conical seal fail on my own bikes, old and hard on unused bikes yes but thousands of 5 speeds out there without issue.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thx again, I’m sure you’ve told others but I missed that
Sticking clutch definitely not good, I won’t be third man to find out, forewarned is forearmed.
This surely explains why factory used conical seals not cheap o rings on 5 speed.
I’ll try and get a measure on step 4 and 5 speed but I’ve never had a conical seal fail on my own bikes, old and hard on unused bikes yes but thousands of 5 speeds out there without issue.

This is actually the first I've mentioned it, because it's the first I've experienced it despite installing the o-ring stack in over a dozen bikes. I've had leaks with (fresh) conical seals that the o-ring stack fixed. Charley Cole was using a mix of conical seals and o-rings.

[jacksonracingcomau]

This is actually the first I've mentioned it, because it's the first I've experienced it despite installing the o-ring stack in over a dozen bikes. I've had leaks with (fresh) conical seals that the o-ring stack fixed. Charley Cole was using a mix of conical seals and o-rings.

I think this may deserve it’s own thread and warning to others, I cannot simulate this problem, only way one of my o rings can migrate is if it breaks first, then it can travel freely but pushes the pushrod a bit cock eyed,
To overcome clutch spring pressure requires proper sticking — even worn splines on flywheel or hub only stop clutch freeing not driving.
Unless I’m misunderstanding this your pushrod should be blue
But mix of conical seal and o rings a safe idea (or washer in front)

One word of caution here:
Some (most? all?) V700s don't have enough of a "step" in the mainshaft drilling to prevent the o-rings from going on forward towards the clutch. Charley Cole told me this, but being pig-headed I didn't listen. The result? One or more of the o-rings in my V700 have migrated forward and are jamming up clutch action - the clutch is sticking disengaged, finally slowly engaging. Not a huge issue to fix, but one that could have been avoided. Might be best to do a "hybrid" installation: a backing washer or slice off of the plastic sleeve first, then several o-rings.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Due an update, after lockdown finally ended here I’ve put a few miles on the old thing.
It is officially re-commissioned, but not restored, to every single nut and bolt
Took it out today with my son , his views interesting, pretty much match mine, engine (std but for Lario carbs, long T3 manifolds and 83mm Ambo pistons) is incredibly sweet, pulls from nothing happily.
These long manifolds are actually unequal lengths, may get even better with two D manifolds, the longer side.
Lightened flywheel matched to early 4 speed and 8/33 final drive really, really works, increases the spaces between gears so needing fewer changes with the rocker gearlever, loads of engine breaking , easy to ride smoothly.

As 8/33 rear drives are now the cheapest to find in good nick, this is a no brainer, can fit inside old case if period look is important. First still low enough for my driveway at idle (10.96 for tech heads) about halfway from 1st to 2nd oe)
Top is a lot higher than oe at 4.273 from 4.974. Mine happy from 45mph in top.

Front brake gets better with every mile, I believe it was never used in it’s early life
But forks are still clunky, more work needed there, replacing them with later stuff on the cards ,

The only other real change I made was bars (as in first workshop pics), totally sorts the steer from rear feeling, just feels normal is only way to describe  it.

Picture only to prove we went out, leatherwork not on yet, I need the fuel cap sealing better, a cork gasket may be better than rubbers I have there now (sealing but fiddly). I mounted external vent so no longer breathes through cap, I now need 100% seal on cap before leather cover goes on permanently.
Also to highlight the one missing original part I need.
Anyone with a v700 left sidecover  for sale or swap ? ( tatty original grey would be perfect match for rest of tinware

[lazlokovacs]

this thread has just totally made my day...

I have a replacement 4-speed ambo box turning up at my workshop this week for restoring before I swap it for the one on my bike

great info thanks

there will no doubt be questions following!

[jacksonracingcomau]

Thing’s running sweetly, totally sorted
So time to fit leatherwork now I trust tank/cap don’t leak anymore

Tank today, one small concession for aesthetic (but anyone else would’ve rechromed due to little pits)
Press studs are for tank bag



top image sites

[mtiberio]

Are you using the narrower pinion holder with your modern rear drive housing and drum swingarm?

[jacksonracingcomau]

Are you using the narrower pinion holder with your modern rear drive housing and drum swingarm?

That would be proper complicated
Is LM4 (disc) swingingarm
Late pinion bearing holder, all tickety boo