No replacement for defensive riding

[LowRyter]

if anyone is relying on the color of his helmet to keep him safe, I'd say take another form of transportation.

[Ncdan]

if anyone is relying on the color of his helmet to keep him safe, I'd say take another form of transportation.

That’s a pretty lame response when people are discussing DIFFERENT ways riders can have an influence of such things as visibility and you can bet your arse that I have seen it work hundreds of times, with a vast amount of experience on the subject!
Try to contribute something besides a personal attack, please:)

[Tusayan]

So I rode in to work this morning kind of late. Just having a short day to get some reflective tape replaced on my work trailer. I had a level 2 DOT inspection and that was the only issue. Anywho. It’s a beautiful day, so I’m riding along enjoying the day. About 5 miles of my ride is on interstate. I hit that section and as I’m riding along I saw the car next to me creep into my lane! I sped up a little to get out of their blind spot and give myself more space if they kept coming. As soon as they noticed me they jerked their wheel and got back into their lane!
Here’s the thing, I have hi-vis yellow on my riding jacket, riding a screaming yellow iridescent bike with lots of chrome!!! And a dealer installed stage one exhaust that is not quiet!! Moral of the story is no matter what you do to add visibility never NEVER trust that drivers “see” you! Always ride like you’re invisible and never let your guard down.

I think what you’re describing is the failure of defensive tactics to protect you on a motorcycle, and the necessity to act decisively, bordering on aggressively, to prevent average drivers from giving you an unpleasant day.  That is indeed what has worked for me over 46 years of injury free riding.  And wear good protective gear so when you hit the ground you don’t get so beat up.  The rest is mainly window dressing.

[geoff in almonte]

Defensive driving is not something that can be described in a paragraph or two.  After I retired I took a job as a school bus driver.  I had to attend Bus Wrecker U for three weeks before they gave me a route.  Only 1-2 hours each day involved behind the wheel training - the remainder was split between teaching defensive driving techniques, methods to control the kids and to look for and recognise signs of abuse.

There were a few recurring themes in the DD lectures:

- Be Visible
- Keep Your Distance
- Be Aware
- Anticipate

For motorcycle riders I would add - Buy good quality protective gear and Wear It.

Ride Safe.  Ride often.

And Keep yer distance.

Cheers!
G

[LowRyter]

That’s a pretty lame response when people are discussing DIFFERENT ways riders can have an influence of such things as visibility and you can bet your arse that I have seen it work hundreds of times, with a vast amount of experience on the subject!
Try to contribute something besides a personal attack, please:)

I'll stick to what I've said.  Not meant to be a personal attack but I have little confidence that the color of helmet as a major factor in safety, a marginal one perhaps.  (Unlike you I didn't quote or single out anyone.)

I believe in active safety: staying out of blind spots, getting around traffic swiftly, keeping safe distances all around, checking mirrors often (particularly when stopped), practicing motorcycle skills such as cornering and braking, inspecting the bike and making sure that critical system like tires, controls and chain are safe.  And I'm a big believer in passive safety, ATGATT (from earplugs to boots).  I suppose once all that is in proper order, then colors are important.  But if anyone is relying on the color of his helmet to keep him safe, I'd say take another form of transportation.  Nothing wrong with florescent clothing, I just wouldn't rely on it for my first, 2nd or 3rd consideration.   I didn't say it was window dressing.

[Ncdan]

I'll stick to what I've said.  Not meant to be a personal attack but I have little confidence that the color of helmet as a major factor in safety, a marginal one perhaps.  (Unlike you I didn't quote or single out anyone.)

I believe in active safety: staying out of blind spots, getting around traffic swiftly, keeping safe distances all around, checking mirrors often (particularly when stopped), practicing motorcycle skills such as cornering and braking, inspecting the bike and making sure that critical system like tires, controls and chain are safe.  And I'm a big believer in passive safety, ATGATT (from earplugs to boots).  I suppose once all that is in proper order, then colors are important.  But if anyone is relying on the color of his helmet to keep him safe, I'd say take another form of transportation.  Nothing wrong with florescent clothing, I just wouldn't rely on it for my first, 2nd or 3rd consideration.   I didn't say it was window dressing.

No one said anything about relying on any one thing to save them from an accident. I can tell you from years of a vast amount of experience and have ridden thousands of miles in the third largest city in NC as a motor officer, that a white helmet is the single most effective apparel that will get a drivers attention that I have used or experienced.
Personally,  I could care less what you put on your head or what color you chose for it to be.
I have a white helmet but don’t always wear a white helmet and I’m definitely not promoting any brand of white or any other color of helmet available out there. Just sharing my personal experience on the subject and definitely don’t need to be told to get another mode of transportation.

[erich]

The most effective piece of equipment I’ve ever experienced is simple a white helmet. It happens all the time for a cage driver to come speeding up to a stop sigh or light for a right turn, to look at me and slam on breaks instead of continuing to pull out in front of me. Often the driver or passenger will put on their seatbelt before proceeding after I go by. I guess there’s no need to explain this phenomena👮‍♂️

I agree. People see what might be sexually attractive or dangerous. I use a G5 with standard windscreen and bags  + black gear + white helmet. This incidentally fits the local colour scheme of bikers perceived dangerous.  But the main reason is that I believe that clear contours with a bright single colour on top is better than high contrast multicoloured gear (splinter camouflage) before a background of billboards, shopping malls, business trucks with fancy advertisments all around etc. For really low visibility I will use a vest of orange day glo (if legal), I do not like the current greenish yellow. 

[Rough Edge racing]

 I have a silver helmet and always wear a dark color leather jacket.I rarely ride in congested areas...Like a WW2 fighter pilot ,never ride in straight line, always be moving  back and forth within your lane.Your head always moving to get a wider field of vision. Always try to see the driver when the vehicle is stopped at a cross road..If the driver is not looking at you he may pull out unexpectedly.
 Most important is to do what works for you. A rider on a large touring bike presents a whole different  visual image than a smaller sport bike.

[LowRyter]

No one said anything about relying on any one thing to save them from an accident. I can tell you from years of a vast amount of experience and have ridden thousands of miles in the third largest city in NC as a motor officer, that a white helmet is the single most effective apparel that will get a drivers attention that I have used or experienced.
Personally,  I could care less what you put on your head or what color you chose for it to be.
I have a white helmet but don’t always wear a white helmet and I’m definitely not promoting any brand of white or any other color of helmet available out there. Just sharing my personal experience on the subject and definitely don’t need to be told to get another mode of transportation.

As a motor officer, did you ride side by side (not staggered)?   I see that all the time, two motor cops riding side by side like of Chips.  Why do they do that?

[roadventure]

never NEVER trust that drivers “see” you! Always ride like you’re invisible and never let your guard down.

This SHOULD be common sense for ALL riders.  If not, you may want to reconsider your choice to ride motorcycles on the street.

[roadventure]

The most effective piece of equipment I’ve ever experienced is simple a white helmet.

Here, here! 

[Ncdan]

Here, here!

Explain? I’m simply referring to the aspect of visibility, only.

[Don G]

I have always worn a white helmet due to the fact that I had noticed that they stuck out. I have also promoted their use to my friends as well.  DonG

[Ncdan]

I have always worn a white helmet due to the fact that I had noticed that they stuck out. I have also promoted their use to my friends as well.  DonG

👍
Anyone who says they do not notice a white helmet quickly maybe should themselves pay a little more attention as to what’s coming toward them.

[Rough Edge racing]

So,what gets more attention, the white helmet or a bright headlight?  Do you guys riding in states without a daytime headlight law turn on the light?

[oldbike54]

So,what gets more attention, the white helmet or a bright headlight?  Do you guys riding in states without a daytime headlight law turn on the light?

 Tony , most of us own motorbikes made after 1978 , the headlight comes on with the key 

 Honestly , it seems the helmet is more visible than a headlight , especially now with so many cars having daytime running lights .

 Dusty

[Lannis]

Always try to see the driver when the vehicle is stopped at a cross road..If the driver is not looking at you he may pull out unexpectedly.
 

There's actually more to it than that.    We FINALLY convinced my Mom to give up driving when the geriatric psychologist gave her a test to check her very-short-term memory.

He sat her down at a table with a sheet of paper and a pencil.   He gave her these instructions:

"Charlotte, I want you to write down the first letter of the alphabet, followed by the first number.   Then write down the second letter of the alphabet, followed by the second number.   Then connect the groups with a line."

She said "Could you say that again?   I didn't hear you."    He slowly repeated the instructions.   She again said "I'm having trouble hearing you."   He said "Charlotte, you are hearing me just fine, but you can't process what I am saying."   

She said "But I do crossword puzzles and number puzzles all the time.   Why can't I do this?"

And he said "Because you are unable to retain two pieces of information at one time.   Doing what I asked is the same as getting ready to pull out into an intersection in your car.   You have to look one way, and remember where the oncoming cars are.   Then you have to look the other way, and remember where the oncoming cars are, and put those two pieces of information together.   You're unable to do that, which means that you will look one way, look the other way, and pull directly out in front of the car you saw first but forgot about ...."

She hated it, but she understood, and never drove again.    She would have killed someone.

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

Tony , most of us own motorbikes made after 1978 , the headlight comes on with the key 

 Honestly , it seems the helmet is more visible than a headlight , especially now with so many cars having daytime running lights .

 Dusty

Not my 79 Triumph 750, lol.  To be honest I never thought about the headlight despite having two bike that the light comes on with the ignition.....Have to observe if the light is more visible than the helmet....But it seems the vast majority are Black helmets on HD's or Japanese cruisers.
  Do you all slow down or post on the pegs when cresting a hill on two lane rural roads?  At night on the two lane do you look for headlights of approaching vehicles on the power lines befor you actually see the vehicle? 

[oldbike54]

Not my 79 Triumph 750, lol.  To be honest I never thought about the headlight despite having two bike that the light comes on with the ignition.....Have to observe if the light is more visible than the helmet....But it seems the vast majority are Black helmets on HD's or Japanese cruisers.
  Do you all slow down or post on the pegs when cresting a hill on two lane rural roads?  At night on the two lane do you look for headlights of approaching vehicles on the power lines befor you actually see the vehicle?

 Treating a hill with reduced sight lines like a curve with the same just makes sense as does watching for any reflected light .

 Dusty

[larrys]

I took an advanced rider course in 1985 that the CT DMV offered. Four hours of class learning about street strategies and how not to get taken out by some car driver who's not paying attention. Afternoon was playing on our bikes in a large empty parking lot. One of the exercises was drive down a pylon marked lane at 25 MPH and mash your rear brake. Round two was the same thing only mash the front brake. I was surprised at how many riders in the class (about 20) had no idea how their machines would behave in that exercise. I rode my SP. When I did the rear brake only thing the instructor yelled at me for "using my front brake". I had to explain the linked brakes...
One thing that still sticks with me is when you're approaching a car that is poised at a side street ready to pull out in front of you, take a glance at their front tire. Your eyes will notice the wheel rotating before you see the car move...
My "almost" yesterday. I am tooling down a forested back road in East Haddam at around 50-55 MPH mid afternoon on my Cal. Its a sunny day but the trees have the road in the shade. I spot a yearling deer on the left side of the road, running in the same direction as me but angling towards me and the road. Speed up to get in front of it or? I mash the brakes HARD as the deer angles more sharply towards me. Yikes! I was down to about 10-15 MPH as it crosses in front of me from about 10' away. Whew! We both live another day!
Be well,
Larry

[Bert Remington]

From the article I cited in my reply #12 "Aviation research shows that contrast is the single most important factor in determining the likelihood of acquiring an object visually."

The article explains the strengths and weaknesses of how our eyes, and therefore other drivers' eyes, perceive scenes and how to compensate.  Not the final word of course but it usefully increased my understanding.

I found road course training instruction very very useful for driving safety.  I drove my Mustang to "open tracking" events and always paid for extra instruction when available (often it was included in the event fee).  There were events for motorcycles although I never took mine because I had too much stuff (you really need a van).  For me it wasn't about going fast -- it was first, understanding what was needed to go fast and second, practicing that understanding.  As my instructors always said, your best investment is track time and I was always the last flagged off the track.  And that understanding and practice goes home with you.

These days I practice my lines on the not-fast but much-fun Royal Enfleld in the mountains behind San Diego.  I miss the track time so maybe I can find a friend with a van who wants to run Buttonwillow.  BTW the events require leather with one exception: Aerostitch Roadcrafter (my riding suit).

[Ncdan]

So,what gets more attention, the white helmet or a bright headlight?  Do you guys riding in states without a daytime headlight law turn on the light?

I was not aware there are any states that does not require that headlights be on while operating a motorcycle, it’s been the law in NC for decades.
As far as my opinion on your question, I think the headlight being on definitely makes the rider more visible. That being a given, it seems that many drivers  still don’t acknowledge an oncoming bike or they are so use to seeing a headlight on, that it no longer registers in their mind, as Dusty previously made reference too, if they are preoccupied or in a hurry or just to rude to care. Who knows any exact reason. Personally I feel that regardless of what precautions we take in our motorcycling apparel for safety, a riders best defense is learn how to read and possibly predict the action on another vehicle that will possibly move into the proximity of the bikers space.

[Ncdan]

As a motor officer, did you ride side by side (not staggered)?   I see that all the time, two motor cops riding side by side like of Chips.  Why do they do that?

Thanks for the question Sir and it’s a honest one.
Yes we did ride side by ride a lot and I have actually locked Vetter side bags with a fellow motor officers bike at highway speeds. Back during that era it was a common practice.
That being admitted, man were we stupid or what!?😂😂

[LowRyter]

Thanks for the question Sir and it’s a honest one.
Yes we did ride side by ride a lot and I have actually locked Vetter side bags with a fellow motor officers bike at highway speeds. Back during that era it was a common practice.
That being admitted, man were we stupid or what!?😂😂

I appreciate that honest reply.   

And I understand the logic of wearing white helmets and bright clothing.   

The motorcops ride that way here.   

[Ncdan]

I appreciate that honest reply.   

And I understand the logic of wearing white helmets and bright clothing.   

The motorcops ride that way here.   

Well I reckon motor officers now are no wiser than we were then😂😂😂😂
It is really hazardous to ride that close of a proximity to another bike, especially at the speeds we did. Worse than that we did it two by two in two lines of 14 bikes. Talking about a train wreck if someone pulled out in front of us!
Wait, I forgot, we had white helmets on😂🤣🤣🥵

[GeorgiaGuzzi]

I notice white helmets! Just like I notice ski racks. I like having a hi viz helmet. One time the pickup ahead of me swerved to miss a ladder in the interstate. He clipped it, into my path. I had a tractor trailer beside me and guard wire to the left. I hit the ladder at about 55 and went down. That wasn’t the scary part. The scary part was sliding to a stop in the wee morning hours and looking up into oncoming traffic!!!! Thankfully everyone stopped and allowed me to scamper off the interstate. My helmet was red with a white front. That white front was facing traffic and helped me be visible. After that I bought a hi viz yellow helmet. That the person who pulled out in front of me did not see!!! Now I sport a matte grey helmet because it was snell certified and on closeout!

[Lannis]

Thanks for the question Sir and it’s a honest one.
Yes we did ride side by ride a lot and I have actually locked Vetter side bags with a fellow motor officers bike at highway speeds. Back during that era it was a common practice.
That being admitted, man were we stupid or what!?😂😂

For many many years, it was noticeable that the police riders did NOT follow the same "best practices" of us civilian riders.

For example, they always wore small half-helmets.   In summertime, they were always riding in short-sleeved uniform shirts.   And when they were in pairs, they would ride close together, side by side, in a way that would be considered dangerous for other riders.

I always assumed (and was probably told) that the lack of full helmets and "full" gear was so that there wouldn't be such a Robocop/Judge Dredd effect ... so that people could see that they had a face, and regular skin, and so people wouldn't be intimidated in the wrong way by impersonal gear, and make the police more approachable.   And that the "riding in formation" thing was to sort of demonstrate "we're professionals, don't try this at home, and by the way, we can probably catch you if you run."   That's what I've always thought, anyhow.

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

I was not aware there are any states that does not require that headlights be on while operating a motorcycle, it’s been the law in NC for decades.
As far as my opinion on your question, I think the headlight being on definitely makes the rider more visible. That being a given, it seems that many drivers  still don’t acknowledge an oncoming bike or they are so use to seeing a headlight on, that it no longer registers in their mind, as Dusty previously made reference too, if they are preoccupied or in a hurry or just to rude to care. Who knows any exact reason. Personally I feel that regardless of what precautions we take in our motorcycling apparel for safety, a riders best defense is learn how to read and possibly predict the action on another vehicle that will possibly move into the proximity of the bikers space.

  About 7 states do not require head light on unless the bike is made after a certain date. Think about the high mounted brake light required on cars for maybe 30 years.Do you notice that ?
   I for sure notice a bike with the headlight on when the bike is coming at me and moving from side to side. That's why I do it..a quick wiggle of the bars to a car at the cross road and I see the driver looking right at me when I pass.. I suppose just cycling the "press to pass" high beam switch would do the job....But truck drivers sometimes flash the lights as a signal to go on first at a four way stop or it's a signal to pass when following on a two lane road...
  I rode in a new car, it has warning devices if following to close or wandering into another lane. Good for inattentive drivers but maybe not so good  for  all situations

[Lannis]

I suppose just cycling the "press to pass" high beam switch would do the job....But truck drivers sometimes flash the lights as a signal to go on first at a four way stop or it's a signal to pass when following on a two lane road...
 

Yes, and I never flash my high-beam at someone UNLESS they're coming the other way on a straight road and I'm warning them about a hazard ahead that I just passed.   I've been warned many and many a time by others that way.

For someone in front of you, getting ready to turn or pull out, "flash flash" means "go on ahead, go in front of me" so I would never use a flash as a "look out for me, I'm coming through ...."

Lannis

[Ncdan]

For many many years, it was noticeable that the police riders did NOT follow the same "best practices" of us civilian riders.

For example, they always wore small half-helmets.   In summertime, they were always riding in short-sleeved uniform shirts.   And when they were in pairs, they would ride close together, side by side, in a way that would be considered dangerous for other riders.

I always assumed (and was probably told) that the lack of full helmets and "full" gear was so that there wouldn't be such a Robocop/Judge Dredd effect ... so that people could see that they had a face, and regular skin, and so people wouldn't be intimidated in the wrong way by impersonal gear, and make the police more approachable.   And that the "riding in formation" thing was to sort of demonstrate "we're professionals, don't try this at home, and by the way, we can probably catch you if you run."   That's what I've always thought, anyhow.

Lannis

Lannis, yea that’s the way it evolved over the years I guess. However things has drastically changed in my part of the country. In The city I worked they have left the old uniforms of tall boots, bloused pants and white half helmets and gone to the europium style of dress including full black helmets and sport touring bikes.
Personally I like this uniform from the mid 30s at the WSPD:)