1000 sp 1980... Clutch Siezed?

[Tom]

I'd try the mineral spirits first before a complete tear-down.  My '80 SP has been sitting for awhile in Phoenix.  I don't think the clutch is stuck together.  Periodically it's operated.  Yours might have to be done again with the mineral spirits wash.  You'll have to drill a drain hole in the bottom of the clutch area NOT the transmission.  If you're not sure don't do it.   Replacing the clutch will take time and you have to crab the frame. 

[wirespokes]

Low speed, on and off the throttle would give the most force to break it loose.

Yeah, it does seem the transmission needs to come out. Hope the splines and clutch plates are good.

[berniebee]

You guys are all awesome. I forgot how much I love the Guzzi boards....


SOOOOOOO.... I took it out and had a friend push start me, and I could get around well enough in 1st gear until I made it to a large empty parking lot...

And then I ran around in circles, 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd gear, getting a good clip and going wide open up to a decent clip.... BUT NO UNSTUCK CLUTCH!  I was happy to fly on the SP again but was really disappointed it did not work the clutch loose.

I did this for about 15 minutes, until my hand got tired from holding the clutch in and I started to get a bit dizzy....

So, what do you all think is next? Should I do it again??? Should I do the trick with the mineral spirits??

I did the rocking back and forth when parked in 5th gear, as well as 1st gear initially... but should it have been 1st gear? was confused about the earlier message...

thank you all for your help and suggestions,
Richard

I would do it again, but you need some room. You say you were going around in circles? You need bursts of very hard acceleration (preferably in 3rd or higher gear*)  and then the throttle cut completely off. The idea being that you torque the plates first in one direction, then the other. So you need to be going in a straight line. Yes, you're going to look like a freaking maniac to the casual observer. Thoroughly warm up the engine and clutch/transmission with less aggressive riding -at least 15-20 minutes before hammering the throttle. Tape the clutch to the handle bar.
 
Unfortunately, this doesn't always work. But it's your best bet before dismantling, so be patient...

*Use a higher gear because A: you can hold the throttle open longer and the bike is easier to control when you nail the throttle in a higher gear and B: when off throttle, the momentum of you and the bike is multiplied by the high gear to "twist" the clutch plates loose with more torque.

That's why if you use the "rock it back and forth with engine off" method, you use 5th gear. You have to think about torque from the perspective of the wheel attempting to free the clutch.  In normal use, high gear allows the engine to spin the wheels with the most speed but lowest torque multiplication. But from the rear wheel's point of view, the highest gear allows the wheel to spin the engine/clutch with the least speed, but the highest torque.

[jwinwi]

Sorry to hear it's not working yet but happy to hear you weren't hurt trying! 

[whyrichard]

Question, as I am considering options....

On my 40 year old guzzi, considering it is likely on its original clutch (only 70K, despite my 4 cross country trips... kids) do you think I should plan a larger overhaul on the bike?

Is it possible to take apart the clutch and address this problem without disturbing too much else? It is likely that if it requires a bunch of dismantling, it will need a bunch of new cables / parts / etc.... 

or can it be fixed without too much trouble?

thanks,
Richard

[Lannis]

Question, as I am considering options....

On my 40 year old guzzi, considering it is likely on its original clutch (only 70K, despite my 4 cross country trips... kids) do you think I should plan a larger overhaul on the bike?

Is it possible to take apart the clutch and address this problem without disturbing too much else? It is likely that if it requires a bunch of dismantling, it will need a bunch of new cables / parts / etc.... 

or can it be fixed without too much trouble?

thanks,
Richard

You don't have to replace other parts when you're getting to the clutch, but you have to split the motorcycle completely in two.   Most people find that once they've gone to all that trouble, it makes sense to replace the engine rear main seal if it's been in there a long time, and replace the transmission front seal, as well as the wear parts of the clutch, flywheel, flywheel bolts, etc.

Lannis

[whyrichard]

I should probably do all of that work too....

Question for you wise guzzi peeps... my local mechanic is super expensive... what would be the most cost effective way for me to do this work? Considering I am not super equipped to do this job myself?

I'll try push start 5th gear take 2 in coming weeks...

Thanks all,
richard

[Tom]

Ship your bike to Charlie.  Pay him then a fly-n-ride back home.

[Guzler]

Okay, If I was you with few resources...
1 Pull the timing plug
2 Spray WD40 all over everything in there, rotate-repeat
3 select 2nd or 3rd gear
4 Hold clutch lever in and rock it forward and reverse con gusto
5 The WD40 will evaporate, just take it easy for a while

[Tom]

Worth a try.

[Scout63]

This might be a great opportunity to get into a deeper level of maintenance. The Guzzi clutch is pretty simple, and if you don’t open up the transmission the job doesn’t require a lot of specialized tools. You can give your bike a rose and “take it to the next level.”

[Two Checks]

Contaminate the clutch lining with OIL? Just say no to WD40.


I have two bikes I am slowly returning to service. I hope the clutches aren't stuck but once they run the transmissions are coming out for a teardown to check for any rust.

[Tom]

WD 40 is not a lubricant.  It's intended as a cleaner but if in doubt use mineral spirits or kerosene and a spray bottle.  You need a drain hole.

[Don G]

Take her apart and do it right, throw a U-joint support bearing at it , perhaps service the joint as well. May as well look into replacing seals too, it is basic maintenance on a 40 year old machine, give it some love,my 2 cents. DonG

[blackcat]

I should probably do all of that work too....

Question for you wise guzzi peeps... my local mechanic is super expensive... what would be the most cost effective way for me to do this work?

Are you talking about Moto Borgotaro?

Do you have a garage to do this work? If so, and you are handy it can be done provided you are willing to buy a few tools and ask a lot of questions.  If you are going to do this next month, I will probably be in town and can give you a hand or at least point and tell you what to do.  Some people like to crab the frame but I personally like to just remove the upper half and set it aside leaving the engine and transmission as one piece which isn't too hard on this age of Tonti framed bikes. 

[theoneandonlymin]

WD 40 is not a lubricant.  It's intended as a cleaner but if in doubt use mineral spirits or kerosene and a spray bottle.  You need a drain hole.

There is a drain hole so there is

Cheers
Min

[jwinwi]

Okay, If I was you with few resources...
1 Pull the timing plug
2 Spray WD40 all over everything in there, rotate-repeat
3 select 2nd or 3rd gear
4 Hold clutch lever in and rock it forward and reverse con gusto
5 The WD40 will evaporate, just take it easy for a while

Have you actually done this? With positive results?

[Tom]

There is a drain hole so there is

Cheers
Min

In the clutch area.  There wasn't on mine but then again it is Moto Guzzi.

[MotoG5]

I am with Scout63 and Don G. I would bet you could do what needs to be done if you have a place to work and a few extra hands on occasion. Having someone do the work for you will cost more than the bike is worth in parts and labor. Unless you have good Gizzi guy around willing to shepard you through and help out. All the parts you will need are available and there is more than enough folks here on the list with all of the answers you will need. This is a time that comes to most owners of old Guzzis. Take that next step in owner maintenance or either sink a lot of money into the old horse or sell it.

[Tom]

So what?

[Two Checks]

Quote from: Tom on June 25, 2020, 02:54:40 PM

WD 40 is not a lubricant.  It's intended as a cleaner but if in doubt use mineral spirits or kerosene and a spray bottle.  You need a drain hole.

WD 40 is a water dispersant. It was created to prevent corrosion on Atlas rockets. It is no more a cleaner than bearing grease.

And it will lubricate a bit for a bit.

[Tom]

Wait....water is not a contaminant??  It doesn't need to be dispersed??  Flushed out???  Cleaned out??? 

[Sasquatch Jim]

I had this happen on a Honda 50 years ago.  The bike had been broken through the ice and sunk in 4 feet of water.
 the guy drug it out and removed the plugs and kicked it over to squirt the water out the spark plug holes. Replaced the now dry plugs and started it up and drove it about 7 miles to the shop.  He put it in a corner and let it sit for 3 months.  I bought it from him and dropped the pan and cleaned the mud and water out.  Put the pan back on , oil in it. Clutch wouldn't disengage.  I engine wouldn't turn over either.  I put it in low gear and holding the clutch lever, rocked it back and forth with lots of liquid wrench in each cylinder,
until the piston rings finally let go and then with screeching sounds began to go up and down.  I then started it in neutral and rolled it until it was in 2nd gear. then riding it around the parking lot I held the clutch open and gave full throttle, no change.  I slowed down and went into third gear and gave full throttle. With a terrible noise the clutch broke free and was working again.  I took it back in the shop and changed the oil again.  I rode it for another year with only bit of smoke from the exhaust and no further damage.
 Those old 305s were some tough pieces of work.

[wirespokes]

Was it the scrambler, dream or superhawk? Not that it makes any difference.

The big difference is the Honda has a wet clutch - bathed in the sump in engine oil while the guzzi clutch is dry and exposed to the air.

[whyrichard]

I am with Scout63 and Don G. I would bet you could do what needs to be done if you have a place to work and a few extra hands on occasion. Having someone do the work for you will cost more than the bike is worth in parts and labor. Unless you have good Gizzi guy around willing to shepard you through and help out. All the parts you will need are available and there is more than enough folks here on the list with all of the answers you will need. This is a time that comes to most owners of old Guzzis. Take that next step in owner maintenance or either sink a lot of money into the old horse or sell it.

yeah, this math always makes me a little sad...

i would love to take the time to take it apart and learn how to do it myself, but with two young kids and no good space to do it I am afraid it would be endless...

and, frankly, the bike to me is priceless... one of those hallowed objects in my life... i've owned it for twenty years and rode it cross country four times... truely a mythical machine for me...


considering storing it until i have better funds in a year or so, and then doing a repaint and a restore as well as fixing all the fundamentals... sound like a good plan?

I have a griso to borrow in the meantime....

r.

[Chuck in Indiana]

sound like a good plan?

Yep. You really can't afford to pay someone to do what you are talking about. You would have new bike money in it. As a labor of love, however, especially as you *are* in love with it..

[Tom]

Store it till you have the funds to pay someone to fix it.  I won't get better delaying it.

[Moparnut72]

Fixing up old bikes can be a hoot and then? I bought a 1965 Yamaha San Bernadino for more money than it was worth. It looked good in the pictures on line but in person, not so much. So I went ahead and painted it and got it in running condition.It is now a great 20' bike, looks good from 20' but don't get too much closer. One of the reasons I bought it was that it was almost identical to my first bike. I put 17,000 miles on that one but this one 170 will be pushing it. What a POS, I can't be;ieve some of the crap we rode back in those days. I will be selling it for whatever I can get for it which I will put toward a new V7. It won't be near what I have in it, new tires, battery, cables and all kinds of small bits. On a further note I thought I would use it to run errands around town, etc. It is not fun to ride and at times dangerous because it is so small and can't keep up with the crazy traffic out there now. Hopefully someone else wants to relive the old days and I can recover some of my costs. It was fun rebuilding it, my wife thought it would die in pieces but it kept me busy this winter.
kk

[Lannis]

Fixing up old bikes can be a hoot and then? I bought a 1965 Yamaha San Bernadino for more money than it was worth.

I had many of the old Yamahas and remember the Twin Jets and Big Bear Scramblers and Catalinas but I don't know the "San Bernardino".   What size and kind of bike was it?

Lannis

[80CX100]

 Should I do the trick with the mineral spirits??

     I'd keep playing the hand you're dealt right now, you love the bike, but tearing it down and fixing it don't fit in; why not let time and mineral spirits work for you, 

     A while back, my greatest guzzi mcgyver fix was curing the slipping clutch on my new to me CalVin,caused by too much oil in the tranny case by the po.

     I realize your clutch problem is the opposite of mine, but the surface and material involved is the same.

     A real good drenching and soaking of the plates with mineral spirits with the clutch lever tied in; and then if you can get to a parking lot and be savage with the rear brake, throttle on/off etc.

     If possible bring some mineral spirits with you to fill it up at the parking lot for the good old college try, just in case it doesn't break loose the first time

     I had to be savage with my clutch, fanning it at speed etc to get it cleaned and working good, it's worked great for 3 years.

     I don't envy you being faced with this challenge in NY traffic, that sucks   

     Be careful on that Griso, grabbing a handful of throttle will be a bit more responsive than your SP.

     No matter how it plays out for you, good luck with it.

     Kelly