NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble

[Andy1]

To me, where the bike is designed is more relevant than where it was assembled.
A UK designed bike will (hopefully) be designed to work on UK roads - an American designed bike might work best on American roads, which can be a very different environment.

Perhaps we like Italian bikes as they are designed for Italian roads - from switchback mountain passes to motorways.

Which reminds me, where is the Royal Enfield test / design facility?  Close to the old UK Triumph factory in UK.

AndyB

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

with brexit it makes no sense to keep production in the UK ,
if you are going to pay import taxes to import bikes to your main markets , you might as well produce them in a low cost country.
expect to see more business leaving the UK,

yep

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Would it matter to you if Piaggio moved all Moto Guzzi production to Thailand?

It wouldnt keep me from buying one, but it would be sad to see the factory go idle.

[Joliet Jim]

I don't know, to me it's not a British or Italian bike unless it's made in Britain or Italy. Someday I'll have the 75 Triumph Norton Trident up and running again and have a pure British bike with all it's warts (we'll ignore origin of replacement parts :) )

Indians are cool, but I would have preferred they kept Victory going with less radical designs. It's not an Indian.

[Bpreynolds2]

Dealers are dropping them like Guzzi and they are laying folks off.  Yes, Triumph is struggling right now and no one as of yet in this thread has touched on the single real reason.  Sales.  And why are they not selling as many bikes, or even at least selling to expectations?  Prices.  For instance, let’s take that lovely Speed Twin mentioned earlier.  MSRP 12.1k, plus dealer fees, taxes, etc.  You could say the Griso was a 12k dollar bike too on dealer floors, but they rarely sold at that price and Guzzi is a company with a long history of learning to absorb that kind of loss again and again and again on MSRP prices.  Maybe you’d like a fantastic Street Triple RS at 12.5k?  Maybe an admittedly lovely T100 - again, over 10k even before otd markups, this when you can go get - well, I’m biased - a more desirable V7 or V9 for thousands less.  The Bonnie used to be their butter to bread bike, offering a lot of motorcycle for the money; however, now they want you to pay $$$ for that kind of thing.  To me, Triumph is a company that made it’s recent history on bang for buck bikes like the late 90s, early to mid ‘00s Bonnie and the original Street Triple (back when it was undercutting competition in terms of prices for performance).  From say, mid ‘00s to 2020 Triumph has created some incredible bikes but they’ve also tried to reposition themselves as a premium brand, this both in prices and what they demand from their dealers.  Overall, I don’t think the market has greatly responded to them as such. 

[pebra]

It wouldnt keep me from buying one, but it would be sad to see the factory go idle.

Oh, it would make for wonderful second homes, with a great history! 😎

Wouldn't mind a holiday flat in Mandello myself.  I'd keep a Griso in the garage. Just a short walk down to the beautiful Lago.
If it should come to it, wouldn't you make the best out of it?

[AH Fan]

I've got over 80k miles on my made in England Triumph and will not buy a Thai-rumph.

I would not buy a Moto Guzzi that was made in Thailand, either.

Same thing for Aprilia - gotta be Noale to be genuine.

I grew up on Asian bikes and have owned several - great bikes. I like having no misconception about origin of bike. I knew where my Suzukis came from just like I know where my Guzzi came from. No sleight of hand or misdirection.

I've had several Volkswagens but they've all been made in Germany. I don't think I'm a bigot, just a purist. 



 

[drw916]

I never considered British workmanship as a real selling attribute.  I have had 2 Triumphs to date that were made in Thailand and both have been flawless.

[twowheeladdict]

I knew about many of their bikes being make in Thailand. But some of the other information was a surprise. With so many new layoffs being done in the UK and Triumph moving the rest of their manufacturing to Thailand, Triumph is quickly becoming even less British. Bummer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofIHT4pOILo

and yet, they are still asking a premium price. 

[inditx]

Dealers are dropping them like Guzzi and they are laying folks off.  Yes, Triumph is struggling right now and no one as of yet in this thread has touched on the single real reason.  Sales.  And why are they not selling as many bikes, or even at least selling to expectations?  Prices.  For instance, let’s take that lovely Speed Twin mentioned earlier.  MSRP 12.1k, plus dealer fees, taxes, etc.  You could say the Griso was a 12k dollar bike too on dealer floors, but they rarely sold at that price and Guzzi is a company with a long history of learning to absorb that kind of loss again and again and again on MSRP prices.  Maybe you’d like a fantastic Street Triple RS at 12.5k?  Maybe an admittedly lovely T100 - again, over 10k even before otd markups, this when you can go get - well, I’m biased - a more desirable V7 or V9 for thousands less.  The Bonnie used to be their butter to bread bike, offering a lot of motorcycle for the money; however, now they want you to pay $$$ for that kind of thing.  To me, Triumph is a company that made it’s recent history on bang for buck bikes like the late 90s, early to mid ‘00s Bonnie and the original Street Triple (back when it was undercutting competition in terms of prices for performance).  From say, mid ‘00s to 2020 Triumph has created some incredible bikes but they’ve also tried to reposition themselves as a premium brand, this both in prices and what they demand from their dealers.  Overall, I don’t think the market has greatly responded to them as such.

This right here.
inditx

[geoff in almonte]

You really think that the drop in sales is because of the price?   It has nothing to do with the - thing?

I haven't done any comparison shopping, but I did recently purchase a 2020 Triumph T120 Diamond.  MSRP was $14,500 CDN.  With a GIVI screen, V&H cans, luggage rack and pannier supports, and a Corbin G&L saddle - all taxes, fees, etc, included and out the door with a tank of gas for $18,500.  That's for a 1200cc, 84HP motorcycle. In US funds that's about $12,000.  Personally, I dont think it was overpriced.

I dont know how that compares with the actual cost of a V7 (700cc) or V9 (850cc) but we all know that they dont have the power that the Bonnie offers.  And in my experience, the Triumph dealership network is far superior to the next to invisible Guzzi dealers.

I have been riding for over 50 years and riding Guzzis for at least half of that.

Of course (and obviously) YMMV

Cheers!

G

Dealers are dropping them like Guzzi and they are laying folks off.  Yes, Triumph is struggling right now and no one as of yet in this thread has touched on the single real reason.  Sales.  And why are they not selling as many bikes, or even at least selling to expectations?  Prices.  For instance, let’s take that lovely Speed Twin mentioned earlier.  MSRP 12.1k, plus dealer fees, taxes, etc.  You could say the Griso was a 12k dollar bike too on dealer floors, but they rarely sold at that price and Guzzi is a company with a long history of learning to absorb that kind of loss again and again and again on MSRP prices.  Maybe you’d like a fantastic Street Triple RS at 12.5k?  Maybe an admittedly lovely T100 - again, over 10k even before otd markups, this when you can go get - well, I’m biased - a more desirable V7 or V9 for thousands less.  The Bonnie used to be their butter to bread bike, offering a lot of motorcycle for the money; however, now they want you to pay $$$ for that kind of thing.  To me, Triumph is a company that made it’s recent history on bang for buck bikes like the late 90s, early to mid ‘00s Bonnie and the original Street Triple (back when it was undercutting competition in terms of prices for performance).  From say, mid ‘00s to 2020 Triumph has created some incredible bikes but they’ve also tried to reposition themselves as a premium brand, this both in prices and what they demand from their dealers.  Overall, I don’t think the market has greatly responded to them as such.

[Lannis]

Speaking as someone who actually PAID the price, I can't agree that it's a price thing.   If it were, I probably wouldn't have bought one .... !

Lannis

[Seventy One]

My '13 Triumph Tiger 800XC was far and away the biggest POS I've ever owned.

That was my first and last Triumph. I will never buy anything made in Thailand again. That bike was poorly designed and poorly assembled. In just three years and 42k miles, it was completely worn out and no longer reliable enough to leave town on.

Then there was the bad dealer and the non-existent customer support from Triumph.

I tried to trade it for a KLR but was unable to. Sold the bike (along with $900+ in accessories and spare parts) for $2,200. It was the single worst purchase I've ever made.

At least the Japanese take some pride in their work. I feel bad for Triumphs employees but not the company.

 

[MMRanch]

  MMRanch -- you may place your I650 order as your wheels and tires are available now: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=28166.msg321619#msg321619   

Bert ,   At $1,000.00 ? it kind of takes the fun out of having them !   I might have to wait on the factory mag wheels ?    but thanks for pointing at them ,   My local dealer thinks it will be close to two years for the new US models  to have tubeless wheels.   

I like my Avon AM26's ...   

[Two Checks]

Where the bike is made has nothing to do with quality. Its the people running the factory. If they allow shoddy workmanship its the problem of the company.

[twowheeladdict]

You really think that the drop in sales is because of the price?   It has nothing to do with the - thing?

I haven't done any comparison shopping, but I did recently purchase a 2020 Triumph T120 Diamond.  MSRP was $14,500 CDN.  With a GIVI screen, V&H cans, luggage rack and pannier supports, and a Corbin G&L saddle - all taxes, fees, etc, included and out the door with a tank of gas for $18,500.  That's for a 1200cc, 84HP motorcycle. In US funds that's about $12,000.  Personally, I dont think it was overpriced.

I dont know how that compares with the actual cost of a V7 (700cc) or V9 (850cc) but we all know that they dont have the power that the Bonnie offers.  And in my experience, the Triumph dealership network is far superior to the next to invisible Guzzi dealers.

I have been riding for over 50 years and riding Guzzis for at least half of that.

Of course (and obviously) YMMV

Cheers!

G

How much of that power do you use on a daily basis?  Most people rarely hit the RPMs required to realize the Peak HP of larger displacement motorcycles.

1200cc for only 84HP?  That sure seams low for the displacement.  You could have bought a Suzuki GSX-S750 for $8000 or less because of sales, and have 112.6 HP.   

The bottom line is that if you are happy with it, and with the price you paid, that is all that matters.  I would love to have a new 1200 Scrambler with full Ohlins suspension, but for the money I would probably go with the Yamaha Tracer 900 GT if I were interested in going back to liquid cooled bikes. 

[geoff in almonte]

How much of that power do you use on a daily basis?  Most people rarely hit the RPMs required to realize the Peak HP of larger displacement motorcycles.

>> True dat.  But the Bonnie was built with the HT (High Torque) motor.  It makes it's power between 3500 and 6000 rpm. Redline around 7500.  At 3500rpm in fourth gear I am reading 100kph.  Roll the throttle on and the pull on the handlebars will make you smile and before you know it, you've touched the ton and need to shift.

1200cc for only 84HP?  That sure seams low for the displacement.  You could have bought a Suzuki GSX-S750 for $8000 or less because of sales, and have 112.6 HP.

>>The Thruxton - same motor but the HP (High Performance) makes around 100HP.  I cant ride a sport bike.  My wrists, hips, wife, etc. all say "NO!!!".

>>And sometimes the heart overrules the head and price becomes less of a factor.  And the Bonneville is really pretty.

Cheers!

G

[Rough Edge racing]

How much of that power do you use on a daily basis?  Most people rarely hit the RPMs required to realize the Peak HP of larger displacement motorcycles.

1200cc for only 84HP?  That sure seams low for the displacement.  You could have bought a Suzuki GSX-S750 for $8000 or less because of sales, and have 112.6 HP.   

The bottom line is that if you are happy with it, and with the price you paid, that is all that matters.  I would love to have a new 1200 Scrambler with full Ohlins suspension, but for the money I would probably go with the Yamaha Tracer 900 GT if I were interested in going back to liquid cooled bikes.

So you want 90 hp near 500 pound scrambler? How many can handle that bike at full power?

[ohiorider]

I picked up a nice 2016 T120 last November, and am impressed with the power delivery.  Totally different engine than a gsx type engine.

Geoff hit it on the head.  Triumph intended this to be their High Torque engine, and they certainly hit that mark.  Here's a Cycle World dyno chart for the 2016 model:  For my local riding, the bike feels geared slightly too tall, so the rear 37T sprocket will soon be replaced with a 40T sprocket.  5th and 6th gears need to feel wanted!

Of course, the dyno chart reflects rear wheel hp.





And I think she's lovely to look at, too!

[twowheeladdict]

So you want 90 hp near 500 pound scrambler? How many can handle that bike at full power?

Want and buying are two different things.  I want a lot of things I will never get.  LOL! 

What I really really want is a 300 lb, 50 HP bike with top of the line suspension with at least 5 inch stroke, and a comfortable seat.   

It is frustrating to me that I can't buy a KTM Duke 390 that has the same chassis, suspension, etc. of the Duke 1250, or the new 390 adventure that has the same everything else as the 790 adventure. 

or a Yamaha Tracer 700 GT that has everything offered on the Tracer 900 GT.

Or a V7III set up like a Griso. 

[twowheeladdict]

Would it matter to you if Piaggio moved all Moto Guzzi production to Thailand?

Absolutely would matter! 

This is the same with Japanese bikes.  Many of their made in Thailand bikes are inferior to their made in Japan bikes.   

[twowheeladdict]

Speaking as someone who actually PAID the price, I can't agree that it's a price thing.   If it were, I probably wouldn't have bought one .... !

Lannis

I got a $5000 discount when I bought my new Triumph Trophy SE.  On top of that I got a free top box, and heated grips.  That put the price more in line with the Japanese sport touring bikes.  If I had waited one more year to part ways with my Concours 1400, I probably would have gone with the Yamaha FJR with electronic suspension and cruise control.  Those are the two items, along with price, that enticed me to buy the Triumph.

[twowheeladdict]

Cheers!

G

   Good points. 

[LowRyter]

Want and buying are two different things.  I want a lot of things I will never get.  LOL! 

What I really really want is a 300 lb, 50 HP bike with top of the line suspension with at least 5 inch stroke, and a comfortable seat.   

It is frustrating to me that I can't buy a KTM Duke 390 that has the same chassis, suspension, etc. of the Duke 1250, or the new 390 adventure that has the same everything else as the 790 adventure. 

or a Yamaha Tracer 700 GT that has everything offered on the Tracer 900 GT.

Or a V7III set up like a Griso.

[Two Checks]

Where the bike is made has nothing to do with quality and everything with the manufacturer allowing it.

[twowheeladdict]

What is that, and do they sell it in the US?  And, can I fit on it? 

Just researched it.  It is a KTM Duke 390 in Hasqvarna skin.  Not very good reviews on the components.  Budget items to meet a price point.  This is why my friend who never uses more than is available with the 390 Duke ended up buying the 1250 Duke GT.  He wanted all the high end components even though he won't use all the available power.  What is is paying for though, other than the higher price, is the higher insurance and registration fees that come with a more expensive motorcycle. 

[oldbike54]

 Have seen that at Sturgis , it is the machine used to make assless chaps .

 Dusty

[ohiorider]

Read it twice.  Second time was glad I wasn't drinking coffee!  I'd say this setup might result in you singing an octave higher.

[Motormike]

The problem I have with Taiwan (or Thailand) Triumphs is the same one I have with Chinese BMW's.  These companies are saving hundreds of millions of dollars on labor cost and not passing any of the savings onto the buyer.  I love the look and style of several of the new Triumphs, but will never buy one.  I won't pay BMW's asking price for a GS 850 made in China by Loncin.  Pay China manufacturing rates and sell to the buyer at German prices.  Sorry, I'm not playing that game.  Would US buyers still pay $20 to $30 thousand dollars for a Harley Davidson if Harley suddenly decided to have all their bikes assembled in Mexico?

[TN Mark]

In Triumph's case they're not "allowing" production to all be done in Thailand, they specifically directed it to be so.

Motormike also makes one of the points in the video in that: "Triumph hasn't lowered the cost of the Thailand bikes to reflect the significant manufacturing cost savings."

There are several reasons and claims for this, too many to cover in a simple internet post. Some of the reasons and claims are valid and others are marketing spin. Much like 'sales price' isn't the "the" reason for lower bike sales, but it is simply 'one' of the reasons for lower bike sales. I work for a global company with manufacturing and sales infrastructure all over the globe. I understand the reasons, claims and the demands of various markets.

Triumph hurting shouldn't surprise anyone. As a whole, the entire North American motorcycle market is hurting. Sure there are success stories to be found. They need to be found and they need to be made known. Then also the root cause of the success should be applied and repeated as often as possible.

At some point it's simply up to the consumer to make the determination within themselves of what makes an "Italian" or a "British" motorcycle Italian or British. Plus every other available ethnic option. The name on the tank, the history, the symbolism, the ethnicity etc etc etc. The answer to all those is yes, to varying degrees in the mind of every buyer.

Motorcycles, in the US anyway, are emotional decisions carried out with disposable income. If the intangibles didn't matter, we'd all be riding the lowest cost bike possible that would simply get the job done. Then again maybe that's why Kymco and other Asian brands sells circles around Vespa.