Author Topic: V7III Charging System  (Read 448 times)

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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V7III Charging System
« on: July 01, 2020, 01:29:18 AM »
I have been having a few issues with my one year old V7iii Specials charging system, it seems to be a little intermittent.
I say one year old but it was built in 2017 and spent the first couple of years in a crate, the Vin No ends in 000148
I ordered a Voltmeter for the dash so I can keep a better eye on it.
I pulled the regulator off so I could find all the connections, as it turns out they are Molex connectors right behind the steering head accessible by removing the tank, these are in good condition.
The alternator is a 3 phase unit, not the single phase it shows on the diagrams, wire colours are quite different
The regulator is model SH689JF by Shindengen I believe. That brand has a solid reputation.
The wire colours are Red/White for positive (2), Green for ground aka Chassis (2), 3 blacks for Alternator rotor not a yellow in sight.
I didn't find anything wrong in my exploration but I did add a wire at one point so I can monitor the grounding without removing the tank.

I will keep you updated
If you have a V7 of similar vintage with charging problems jump in otherwise please start your own post if you want to talk about other stuff.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 01:55:49 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2020, 04:59:20 AM »
As I recall, you had taken the bike to a dealer. You were told the charging system was okay I think. So, did they replace the battery, and do you have the bike back in your hands?

Volt meter: I'll add some things I learned. I added the Kuryakin meter to one of my previous bikes. I tapped into the pilot light in the headlight bucket. Because of the voltage loss, it always read low. When I did a meter on my old EV, I put a relay on a switched wire and used that to turn on a direct feed from the battery. Regardless of what brand of meter I would use, that is the better option for accuracy.

Back to that Kuryakin unit. It's simple and works well but there things I do not like about it. The LED's are way too bright, to the point they distract you. There is a light sensor on it which I put a piece of black tape over. Even when it dims down a little, it is still too bright. If I were to use that one again, I would try to dim the LED's even more. Also, you don't just have the current LED lit up. All the LED's below the highest lit one is also lit up which lends to my first gripe of it. They use 2 red, 2 yellow, 2 green, and then back the same on the over voltage side. No actual numerical reading. What I'm saying is that although accurate, I would not get another one like it. It was too annoying in my line of vision.

John Henry
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 05:01:11 AM by Zoom Zoom »
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Offline egschade

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2020, 06:12:09 AM »
I'm watching my bought in 2018, 2017 Mk3 for issues after reading about your issues. I'm using a voltmeter/USB plug in my accessory port to keep an eye on things - so far so good. Since the charging system allegedly checked out OK I still suspect your battery had a mechanical failure. Have you installed a new one?
The elder Eric in NJ
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2020, 06:52:01 AM »
I had an issue one winter day, in late 2018, where I pulled up to my gate after a ride and the bike didn't want to start after I opened the gate. 

I brought it to the dealer and they checked the the bike over and said they didn't find anything wrong.  I haven't had the same issue since.  I do run LED running lights on a relay with power direct from the battery, and SkeneDesign LED flashing brake lights that are jumpered into the taillight wires using Posi-Tap connectors.

I am nervous about adding heated grips or running my heated vest with this bike so if it is not warm enough to ride without heat I take the Harley out. 
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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2020, 06:52:01 AM »

Online antmanbee

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2020, 09:17:30 AM »
I had an issue one winter day, in late 2018, where I pulled up to my gate after a ride and the bike didn't want to start after I opened the gate. 

I brought it to the dealer and they checked the the bike over and said they didn't find anything wrong.  I haven't had the same issue since.  I do run LED running lights on a relay with power direct from the battery, and SkeneDesign LED flashing brake lights that are jumpered into the taillight wires using Posi-Tap connectors.

I am nervous about adding heated grips or running my heated vest with this bike so if it is not warm enough to ride without heat I take the Harley out.

Have you performed the startus interuptus fix already? It sounds like that is likely the problem.
On my Breva 750 I would have issues like that before the fix.
I also run an electric vest and grips on it and have not had the battery go down. I don't have any auxillary lights but still have a halogen headlight bulb and not a LED.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2020, 09:22:27 AM »
As I recall, you had taken the bike to a dealer. You were told the charging system was okay I think. So, did they replace the battery, and do you have the bike back in your hands?
John Henry,
Yes, I reluctantly took it to the dealer, they charged the battery but found nothing wrong, No i bought a new battery from them a YTX14H-BS with 240CCA, same physical size as the YTX14-BS at 200CCA
I put the battery in service as per the instructions that came with it 1.4 Amps for 6 to 10 hours this is even printed right on the battery. I doubt there is anything wrong with the original battery but I'm just sick of it dying on me
They found the throttle body separated, one of the backfires must have done that.
I pulled the charging system apart yesterday and found the alternator is 3 phase not 2 and has what looks like a Shindengen regulator and all the connectors look in great shape, the only thing I never laid eyes on was where the regulator goes to ground but I will investigate that further.
I agree you don't need a bunch of LEDs distracting you, the ones I ordered just have a simple digital display, they were dirt cheap so I got two different colours.  I'll post a link here if I can find it I think they are a couple of weeks away
I'm watching my bought in 2018, 2017 Mk3 for issues after reading about your issues. I'm using a voltmeter/USB plug in my accessory port to keep an eye on things - so far so good. Since the charging system allegedly checked out OK I still suspect your battery had a mechanical failure. Have you installed a new one?
Yes new higher capacity battery, see above Where is the accessory port, I haven't spotted that yet? I eliminated the battery by purchasing a new one. I run heated vest and gloves in the winter but I added one of Girbings bluetooth controllers after the first few flat battery incidents.
The most recent event was without heated gear, just the LED headlight and LED driving lights which add up tp less than the original Incandescent headlight, after the first fail to start I turned off the driving lights and rode about 3 miles to park on a hill.
I haven't had a flat battery yet but at times when I check The Voltage seems low after a good long run, can't put a number on it hence ordering some Voltmeters.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 09:40:30 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2020, 09:23:07 AM »
Have you performed the startus interuptus fix already? It sounds like that is likely the problem.
On my Breva 750 I would have issues like that before the fix.
I also run an electric vest and grips on it and have not had the battery go down. I don't have any auxillary lights but still have a halogen headlight bulb and not a LED.

I am not aware of the "startus interuptus" fix.  Fill me in. 
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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2020, 09:45:33 AM »
John Henry,
Yes, I reluctantly took it to the dealer, they charged the battery but found nothing wrong, No i bought a new battery from them a YTX14H-BS with 240CCA, same physical size as the YTX14-BS at 200CCA
I put the battery in service as per the instructions that came with it 1.4 Amps for 6 to 10 hours this is even printed right on the battery. I doubt there is anything wrong with the original battery but I'm just sick of it dying on me
They found the throttle body separated, one of the backfires must have done that.
I pulled the charging system apart yesterday and found the alternator is 3 phase not 2 and has what looks like a Shindengen regulator and all the connectors look in great shape, the only thing I never laid eyes on was where the regulator goes to ground but I will investigate that further.
I agree you don't need a bunch of LEDs distracting you, the ones I ordered just have a simple digital display, they were dirt cheap so I got two different colours.  I'll post a link here if I can find it I think they are a couple of weeks awayYes, see above Where is the accessory port, I haven't spotted that yet?

I installed a 12v lighter socket / USB charging port on my handlebars to run accessories. Got one with an on/off switch to avoid parasitic drain. Here's the battery tester I ordered: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07422ZPT4/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A24NMQKAKNF7U6&psc=1

The elder Eric in NJ
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2020, 09:48:24 AM »
The V7 certainly has 'Startus Interuptus" potential, same double coils in the solenoid, I did take a current reading >30 Amps, I suspect its just too new at the moment, I will deal with it when it happens.

No one seems surprised that they changed to a 3 phase alternator after 20 years with single phase???
If it is a genuine Shindengen regulator I wouldn't worry about that either.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 09:55:42 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Bert Remington

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2020, 05:59:42 PM »
Here are the components under discussion:



19 = Starter  20 = Battery  22 = Fuse block  24 = Regulator  23 = Alternator
N = Black  R/Bi = Red/White  V = Green  R = Red  Vi = Purple

This setup will be trouble-free until the 12Ah FLA battery or the Molex-style connector and fuse terminals deteriorate.  As they deteriorate there will be a variety of operating issues including poor throttle response and difficulty starting. Correction is as KR and Vagrant described: replace the battery and clean the terminals.

The permanent magnet alternator produces 268W (no rpm given).  If you add heated accessories you should install a higher capacity SLA or LFP battery and a voltmeter.  If you're handy with a crimp tool and heat gun, consider a more efficient MOSFET regulator (https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/).

WRT the possibility of "startus interruptus" the starter solenoid wire goes to Relay 6 Pin 3 then Pin 5 then to 15A Fuse C then to Ignition Switch 14 then to 30A Fuse F then to Battery 20.  It should be easy to go from Relay 6 Pin 5 to Battery 20 via an inline fuse bypassing the ignition switch.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2020, 11:52:49 PM »
Here are the components under discussion:



19 = Starter  20 = Battery  22 = Fuse block  24 = Regulator  23 = Alternator
 
Bert,
       Where did you find that diagram, thanks for posting it
I was looking for one earlier. It shows the 3 phase alternator I found, other schematics show a single phase. The regulator on my bike looks like it may be a Shindengen, it has their symbol on it with part No SH689JF
The only connection I have been unable to verify is where the two green wires connect to chassis after they leave the connector as two blacks.
its such a simple circuit, what could possibly go wrong Luigi?
I updated Bert's drawing with my progress so far

Note: although I wasn't working on the starter today I added the second coil as we briefly discussed "Startus Interuptus", the second high current coil is behind that ailment.
I was unable to find the point where the alternator connects to the chassis, I have to be suspicious of that connection until I prove its ok
The regulator is the casting below the horns, can you verify the model No, on mine its SH689JF with back to back diode symbol in a circle (>| |<) that's the Shindengen logo, surely Piaggio wouldn't buy a Chinese knock off.
BTW, I think the ECU on this bike is incorporated into the throttle body, Ive been wrong before.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 05:45:12 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Bert Remington

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2020, 12:08:30 AM »
I bought the schematic PDF from AF1 https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=88863&sku=DL-2Q000297WD-Stone&description=OEM+Aprilia+Wiring+Diagram+Moto+Guzzi+V7+III  Please note the schematics are model specific -- this link is for a V7 III Stone.

I have printed chassis, engine and parts manuals which, per MG intent, do not have readable schematics.  Fine by me because I prefer PDFs for schematics because they can be resized, etc.
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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2020, 06:58:02 AM »
It sounds like you were able to dig the connector out from the top of the steering head behind the gas tank. Mine is really buried in there and long needle nose wouldn't let me grab them. any trick or am I just retarded?
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Offline Bert Remington

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2020, 08:12:03 AM »
KR -- thanks for annotating diagram.  I forgot about MG's two stage solenoid.  According to the MG service manual, your alternator resistances are spot on.

Yes the ECU is integrated with the TB.  It is a Magneti Marelli MIU G3.  According to Beetle, it was originally created for a single cylinder engine.  A lawn mower or something like that.  Then MG adapted it to a single TB engine (ie 1TB).  As Beetle said this is really a cheapo design.  I think we need to remember is the Stone is MG's low-end model and the V7 is the low-end series.  You'd be surprised how many "extraneous" functions are performed by that ECU.

Shindengen is a respected high quality OEM.  I haven't had any luck finding the specifications for the SH689JF.  I think its a SH689xx with cable harness tailored for the V7.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:38:22 AM by Bert Remington »
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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2020, 09:06:26 AM »
The V7 certainly has 'Startus Interuptus" potential, same double coils in the solenoid, I did take a current reading >30 Amps, I suspect its just too new at the moment, I will deal with it when it happens.

No one seems surprised that they changed to a 3 phase alternator after 20 years with single phase???
If it is a genuine Shindengen regulator I wouldn't worry about that either.
My 2016 MKII also has the 3 phase alternator with Shindegen regulator.  On the MKII, you can reach in above the regulator and pull out the connector.  I've had a look at the connector a couple of times, and all seems ok (no signs of overheating).  I'd be surprised if it was the Shindegen as they are solid.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2020, 11:28:46 AM »
It sounds like you were able to dig the connector out from the top of the steering head behind the gas tank. Mine is really buried in there and long needle nose wouldn't let me grab them. any trick or am I just retarded?
No trick, as you say its buried, I removed the tank, the alternator cable is quite long but the regulator cables barely make it, I removed it completely so I could examine the connections. Behind the steering head is quite a dry spot but no good for troubleshooting.
Before I put them back I greased the contacts with Vaseline to prevent future corrosion and tapped onto one of the ground wires so I can monitor the ground point I was unable to find, should stay at zero Volts.

My 2016 MKII also has the 3 phase alternator with Shindegen regulator.  On the MKII, you can reach in above the regulator and pull out the connector.  I've had a look at the connector a couple of times, and all seems ok (no signs of overheating).  I'd be surprised if it was the Shindegen as they are solid.
I agree 100% but is it a true Shindengen? We are warned there's knock offs all over the internet. I'm giving Piaggio the benefit of the doubt for now and focusing on the ground connection.

KR -- thanks for annotating diagram.  I forgot about MG's two stage solenoid.  According to the MG service manual, your alternator resistances are spot on.

Yes the ECU is integrated with the TB.  It is a Magneti Marelli MIU G3.  According to Beetle, it was originally created for a single cylinder engine.  A lawn mower or something like that.  Then MG adapted it to a single TB engine (ie 1TB).  As Beetle said this is really a cheapo design.  I think we need to remember is the Stone is MG's low-end model and the V7 is the low-end series.  You'd be surprised how many "extraneous" functions are performed by that ECU.

Shindengen is a respected high quality OEM.  I haven't had any luck finding the specifications for the SH689JF.  I think its a SH689xx with cable harness tailored for the V7.

Bert,
That makes sense, I couldn't find anything on SH689 but it seems to be used in scooters and such, the only other marking is 7-227S perhaps a date code, no country of origin that I could see.
 I purchased the diagram from AF1 for the Special, only $4 for a download, I will take the file to a printing place to see if I can get a decent size printout. Did you purchase the manual from AF1, in printed or file download format?
Does your manual shed any light on where the regulator might be grounded?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 11:59:03 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2020, 03:34:38 PM »
I think I am narrowing it down, I was doing a few errands around town this morning, when I got back thought I'd check the Voltage 11.9 WTF , 11.5 after a start.
BTW I check the Voltage at the battery tender cable, thats connected directly to the battery terminals.
I then measured the wire I connected to the regulator ground 250 mV 50 - 70mV to chassis, thats not right, I'm more convinced than ever now its a bad ground on the regulator.
If the ground point is negative 250 mV 50 - 70 mV thats automatically 50 - 70 mV of the charge Voltage, I suspect its worse at times.
I could just tie into the wires on either side of the 4 way connector and ground them to the engine but I would really like to find the actual grounding point. Anybody?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:56:08 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2020, 03:50:38 PM »
are the mounting bolts just supposed to be doing the job? If so maybe a jumper wire right to the battery?
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2020, 03:57:45 PM »
are the mounting bolts just supposed to be doing the job? If so maybe a jumper wire right to the battery?
I don't think the mounting bolts are acting as a ground, I confirmed that today not like the old Ducati Energia, this regulator has two dedicated ground wires (green) turning to black on the other side of connector.
If you look at the partial diagram Bert posted in Reply #10 you will see, no ground shown to case, besides the mounting is quite sturdy.
« Last Edit: Today at 06:32:38 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2020, 05:44:19 PM »
As an aside, I put a Battery Tender on both bikes last fall. They are SUPPOSED to go into a float mode so as not to overcharge the battery. I also pull the main fuse to eliminate parasitic draw. This Spring, I pulled the chargers off only to discover a totally dead battery on the Eldo (1400) So dead it would not take any charge at all. The battery I put in the Stelvio last Fall shortly after Memorial Day, carried a lower voltage than I expected. Certainly lower than when I winterized it. It has come back with use so all is well there. I had to install a new battery in the 1400.

For evermore, I will monitor charging and keep it to short intermittent periods rather than the forget it attitude that I [mistakenly] had.

A battery is a shock absorber of an electrical system. It's not just the thing that starts stuff.

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Offline Bert Remington

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2020, 07:06:05 PM »
KR -- I purchased printed manuals -- chassis, engine, parts -- on eBay.  Here's the chassis manual: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264755727883?ViewItem=&vxp=mtr&item=264755727883  I'm pretty sure these folks run a print-on-demand service because when you buy the manual the listing disappears and comes back as relisted.  Print and binding quality are satisfactory.

WRT to grounding of the regulator heat sink, I'm pretty sure if you measured continuity between any of the seven wires and the heat sink it would be an open circuit.  The SCRs (you don't get MOSFETs with a V7) are in a potted circuit on an insulated mount that dissipates into the heat sink.



Ever since semiconductors were used in automotive electronics, manufacturers stopped using the chassis as a ground return to the battery and instead collected grounds at selected points to avoid ground loops and reduce corrosion problems.  And now not just electronics but also electrics like headlights, turn signals, and even the horn.  Back in the good old days, the headlight bulb ground circuit was through the steering head bearings leading to their pitting.  But not too much because lighting was so weak and you didn't notice because handling was so bad.

So KR I'm troubled by your voltage readings.  Maybe at sometime in your travails you attained/sustained a partial alternator or regulator failure.  I reread the manual (pages 106-109) and at 0.7 ohms your alternator resistance values are high; they should be around 0.2 ohms after subtracting any tester lead resistance.  The manual also has a procedure to measure alternator phase-to-phase voltage:

2,000rpm 40-45Vrms  4,000rpm 82-87Vrms  6,000rpm 132-138Vrms

If the alternator tests okay, start the engine, wait one minute and measure the battery voltage from 3,000-5,000rpm. It should always be between 13-15Vdc.

WRT to FLA and SLA batteries self-discharging during winter storage, that's a feature of their chemistry.  Rather than trickle charging you might want to use a LFP battery and disconnect the ground terminal before storage.  LFPs have very low self-discharge rates that should be good for six months if winter.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2020, 10:20:46 PM »
Bert,
       I revised the voltage drop from green wire to chassis, I strapped my Fluke to the bars, the Voltage drop was 50 - 70 mV, I still think thats on the high side (Low actually the green wire is going negative in relation to chassis)
The 0.7 Ohms was measured with a Fluke 87, I'll stand by that reading, yes automatically take into account lead resistance, the only way I could get any more accurate would be a drop test.
Given that you have to take the tank off to get at the connections I would have to tap into each lead, may do that yet.
I was doing some further checks when the battery went so flat it started chattering the relays
Gave it a partial recharge to 12.31 V, rode 5 km headlight only and it was down to 12.22, at times during the ride I saw 11.9
Checked my headlight drain 1.7 Amps (LED) With both Headlight and driving lights 4.16 Amps (=50 Watts), the OEM headlight was 55/60 Watts.
I can't understand how the alternator could go from 0.2 to 0.7 Ohms, I will ask the dealer to verify that.
Update:
I came upon this document, it might help pin down what type of three phase unit we are looking at using a simple diode tester.
https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/
Update:
I will pull the reg off again and see what I can figure out with a diode tester
I have told the dealer I want another regulator to try under warranty, wish me luck lol
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 12:13:10 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Bert Remington

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2020, 10:08:41 AM »
KR -- I think we've moved from understanding the V7 III charging system to repairing your charging system.  Hopefully it's a battery or regulator or even a wiring problem.  Replacing the alternator will not be easy.  My V7 is still in OH so I can't help with comparisons.

WRT LED headlight, charging systems have a load range.  If the load is too small, the regulator-alternator relationship is stressed.  For the open-type regulators, the effect is excessively high alternator voltages and for short-type regulators, the effect is excessively high heatsink temperatures or SCR currents.  If the load is too high, the entire electrical system is stressed when the voltage drops out of range and the battery is drained.

I too am going to install an LED headlight along with heated grips and vest so I will be at both ends of the load range.  That's why I'm replacing the MG's SCR regulator with an ESR MOSFET regulator (specifically the ESR439 -- some assembly required :smiley:) after my 900 mile service.  I'm also replacing the MG battery with the largest MotoBatt that will fit.

If you replace your regulator, consider the ESR531 (https://www.electrosport.com/products/esr531-regulator-rectifier-honda-super-duty?_pos=1&_sid=4a7498df5&_ss=r).  It is compatible with a variety of MG models and is sold by GTM who can advise you on V7 III compatibility.  The ESR531 is the "super duty" version of the ESR530 I cited before.

Best wishes restoring your charging system.  I hope it's not the alternator.
2016 RE Classic 500 CA version Fair-Weather Mountain Bike
2012 MG Norge 1200GT 8V roller lifters All-Season Freeway Cruiser
2000 BMW R1100RT "Ride Not Taken"

Online Rich A

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2020, 10:16:34 AM »
I put a Kuryakyn led voltmeter on my V7III, near the key (attached thru a switched plug by the battery, a clean installation). It is a bit too bright, but I don't find it distracting as it is normally out of my line of sight. Mostly, I like knowing what the charging system is doing at a glance. I will put something over the light sensor to dim the display--good idea ZZ, or maybe find a piece of tinted plastic or something to cover all of the LEDs.

Rich A

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2020, 12:27:15 PM »

If you replace your regulator, consider the ESR531 (https://www.electrosport.com/products/esr531-regulator-rectifier-honda-super-duty?_pos=1&_sid=4a7498df5&_ss=r).  It is compatible with a variety of MG models and is sold by GTM who can advise you on V7 III compatibility.  The ESR531 is the "super duty" version of the ESR530 I cited before.

Best wishes restoring your charging system.  I hope it's not the alternator.
Bert,
So do I, I asked the dealer to verify the resistance phase to phase, you seemed to think 0.7 was ok then revised it to 0.2?
Electrosport are a California company but their regulators are built in China, I have used them in the past, worked ok.
The regulator on the bike comes from who knows where, I'd like to think it's a Shindengen even if it's not made in Japan
I will do a diode test on it today and maybe a bench check with a battery.
Reporting back
The regulator tests out as one of these, a copy pasted from the Shindengen document
 Three-Phase Short Regulator/Rectifier
The ACG output is rectified to charge batteries. When the battery voltage is high, these regulators/rectifiers short the ACG output and control the charging.
https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/files/images/p_reg_06.jpg
« Last Edit: Today at 06:39:32 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2020, 07:52:59 PM »
It sounds like you were able to dig the connector out from the top of the steering head behind the gas tank. Mine is really buried in there and long needle nose wouldn't let me grab them. any trick or am I just retarded?
I had to unbolt the front ignition coil and move it out of the way, that frees up a lot of space.
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Bert Remington

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2020, 08:33:14 PM »
KR -- that's what I expected.  With the MOSFET regulators being short-type plus the stories of regulators getting hot that pretty much points to MG's SCR regulators being short-type.  On the other hand at 268W capacity (and it charges the battery via a 30amp fuse), that regulator being exposed to open air isn't going to get very hot.

So your connector and fuse terminals look good and you have a new battery yet aren't getting the expected charging voltages.

Two possibilities:

1. One or more phases of the alternator have failed.

2. One or more diodes (not the shorting SCRs, a failed rectifying diode would be equivalent to a failed alternator phase) of the regulator have failed.

In reply #20 I provided the alternator voltages.  A pain to measure although if the connectors use standard 0.25" spade terminals it should be easy to make jumper/tap cables.

BTW if you could post pictures of the 3-pin and 4-pin connectors that would be great because I want to know which ESR connector kits to order with the ESR439.  I'm expecting 0.25" spade terminals but would like to be sure.  Thanks.
2016 RE Classic 500 CA version Fair-Weather Mountain Bike
2012 MG Norge 1200GT 8V roller lifters All-Season Freeway Cruiser
2000 BMW R1100RT "Ride Not Taken"

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2020, 10:49:25 PM »
Bert,
       Yes they are SCR short type, I am able to put it through its paces on the bench I tested all the diodes with the diode test on my Fluke, all 6 ok.
I'm still pinning my hopes on a bad ground connection, that would cause the SCRs to fire early.
Tomorrow I will run new ground wires from the 4 pin connector
The SCRs fire to short the coils at about 15.7 Volts between phases but that would be about 14.3 across the battery with the diode bias Voltage.
 

The black wire you see was my temporary connection to the ground




The red wires will allow me to measure the phase to phase Voltage.
The pins are wider than a standard spade connector.

« Last Edit: Today at 06:50:15 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Bert Remington

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Re: V7III Charging System
« Reply #28 on: Today at 11:06:11 AM »
KR -- dang that AC connector ain't standard -- neither terminals nor shell.  I now doubt the ESR New Model (aka ElectroSports ESR531) is plug compatible although sending your connector photo to either of them might prove me wrong.

The DC connector is standard -- terminals and shell.

I considered possible Shindengen wiring faults causing low DC voltage but all would cause connector overheating or open circuits.

The Shindengen heatsink has more fins and appears larger than the ElectroSport and Roadster Cycle alternatives.  As best I can tell, the double diode is one of Shindengen's trademarked logos.  They have a Beware of Counterfeit webpage.

At this point, I'm thinking I'll delay adding the heated grips and vest controller until colder temperatures and address regulator and battery improvements then.  In the meantime I will add a Koso voltmeter (probably BA024B50) when the motorcycle arrives (hopefully this month).

Thanks for sharing.
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2012 MG Norge 1200GT 8V roller lifters All-Season Freeway Cruiser
2000 BMW R1100RT "Ride Not Taken"

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