V85TT trans failure--help?

[TN Mark]

There are many truths that need to be presented yet. Who's the selling dealer, what dealer, if any, did the first service, what country & state is the bike in, was the transmission oil changed at the first service, was the first service even done etc etc etc.

[Zinfan]

I've never taken apart a Moto Guzzi but can you inspect/repair the clutch without going through the transmission? Or can you remove the transmission without draining the oil since it is a dry clutch?  Seems strange the dealer wouldn't have checked the trans oil when doing the fixes to the bike as a general rule. 

[Zoom Zoom]

<snip>
Checking the oil levels (forks excepted) is part of pre delivery and of course common sense for the dealer as is running over the bike visually and in some cases doing a short road test so they can present to the buyer a as new item.
<snip>

FWIW, the 6 speed on the V7's, and likely the V85 and other small blocks, do not have a sight glass, overflow plug, or dipstick in the gearbox. The only way to verify the level would be to drain it out into a measuring cup and refill.

Now, OTOH, it was mentioned the bike had gotten a new clutch. I would have expected that with the trans out, it ought have been checked. Obviously it was not.

I also don't know what the break in period is on the V85, but my new V7 says 1500 miles. If the first service miles had not been reached, there would have been no reason for the buyer to drain and refill the trans.

There is a possibility this dealer never contacted Guzzi because they don't want to mess with it again. IF they contacted Guzzi, they may have been told it is on them and they are trying to get out of it.

As has been previously suggested:
1. Contact Guzzi. Explain things and ask if the dealer had even contacted anybody. (They may or may not know, but at least you have done your due diligence.)
2. If no satisfaction there, get a lawyer.

My 2 cents.

John Henry

[Aaron D.]

I think it would be nice if the OP would reply. The story beggars belief.

[fotoguzzi]

Sounds like a hoax or fake news?

[Dirk_S]

Seems like a lot of text to write up for it to be fake.

I would give Jonnirado the opportunity to enjoy their holiday weekend.

[Vagrant]

the V85 doesn't require trans or rear end oil until 18000 miles. only engine oil and filter at the first 900 miles. all fluids are now synthetic so maybe it could have made it. But I doubt it also. no way to check the level without draining.

[Moto Vita]

Seems like a lot of text to write up for it to be fake.

I would give Jonnirado the opportunity to enjoy their holiday weekend.

 Seems like a lot of text to ask for a phone # that could have been googled in 30 seconds.

[Moto Vita]

 Still don't know where the bike and rider are from, or where the dealer is, but it appears that the breakdown happened in Utah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFwa0WdQT5E

[Dirk_S]

Sure, one can find MG’s / Piaggio’s phone number or email address pretty easily, but my understanding is that they’re asking for a anyone with a personal connection to help get things done, as it appears that more formal routes seem to be stalled.

[wirespokes]

The most logical answer I come up with:

The trans was pulled to change the clutch.

Trans tips sideways and oil drains out the speedometer drive, or the output shaft.

Maybe the janitor cleaned up the mess and the mechanic didn't know. Or maybe he did?

Everything went back together without oil added.

Seems plausible to me.

[Zoom Zoom]

the V85 doesn't require trans or rear end oil until 18000 miles. only engine oil and filter at the first 900 miles. all fluids are now synthetic so maybe it could have made it. But I doubt it also. no way to check the level without draining.

I realize this is apples and oranges, but I doubt they are that far off from one another. The V7 that I just bought calls for the first service to be performed at 1500 kilometers.Among other things, Engine oil, and gearbox oil are included in that service. Oddly what IS missing is what they define as "final drive oil". (I am looking at the manual as I type this.)

If this whole thread is legit, and no pertinent part of the story has been omitted, someone other than the owner is liable.

John Henry

[Dirk_S]

Oddly what IS missing is what they define as "final drive oil". (I am looking at the manual as I type this.)

Final drive is the bevel gear/ shaft going directly to the rear wheel (the “pumpkin”)

[Zoom Zoom]

Final drive is the bevel gear/ shaft going directly to the rear wheel (the “pumpkin”)

I know what it is. The point is they do not have you changing the final drive oil until 20K????? Seems kind of stupid to me. Ask me if I'll wait that long.

John Henry

[Mike Craven]

Check out the responsibilities and capabilities of your state's Attorneys General office.
-Mike-

[Motormike]

Man, I winced watching that video. I hate hearing expensive mechanical crunchy sounds.  He says Guzzi is going to warranty the fix.  Hope he's right.  Nothing worse that a major breakdown in the middle of nowhere.  Well, Moab, Utah almost nowhere!

[Bulldog9]

I apologize in advance for the length, there's a lot going on here—

I'm trying to ask around on behalf of my father, who is having a rough time with his new V85TT. As a bit of a background, he bought the bike towards the end of April and while trailering the bike home from the dealership, the left hand protector bolt and handlebar weight came off. Then a few hundred miles later, the starter switch housing broke. Little things, not a huge deal, but kind of annoying.  After about a month and with 1700 miles on the bike, while on a trip, it started making a horrible noise. He got it limped to a parking lot, had that vacation ruined, and I went and picked him up and we hauled the bike back to the dealership.

Initially he was told “something” had come loose in the clutch (still not sure what) and that somehow also caused the starter to fail. While there, they discovered a crack in the driveshaft housing. The dealership initially started going down the road of rider abuse to put the blame on my father, but saw from the motorcycle the problems were not rider error and there were no signs of abuse.

As an aside, my father has been riding for over 30 years and has owned multiple motorcycles. This one was the first new bike he has ever bought and it is his baby. He was not out rallying the bike and I know because I've done a lot of riding with him. He's not so young anymore and has no desire to beat himself or the bike up.

After 5+ weeks of waiting, the dealership finally got parts in, put everything back together, and the bike was still making the noise. They then thought it might be the transmission, so they drained the oil from the trans and found it only had 25cc of oil (apparently there should be somewhere around 750cc). The dealer said there was no evidence of any oil leaking out anywhere. My dad keeps it parked on a cement floor in his shop and there have been no oil spots there.

The dealership is now saying Moto Guzzi will not cover the transmission under warranty because “if it had that little oil it should have failed sooner.” The dealer already admitted to not checking the transmission oil level on initial bike setup. The transmission is not something easily accessible for service—it's not like my dad somehow drained the transmission oil when changing the engine oil and then did not fill it back up. The manual even states the transmission should be serviced by the dealer. There was no reason for him to even be in the transmission, especially with that low of miles. They are implying that at some point, for no reason, he drained the transmission of oil, didn't fill it back up, and then kept riding. They have not specified how many miles it should have taken for a problem to crop up when running with low oil, just that they won't cover the repair because it should have been fewer.

They are also now saying that the transmission failure caused the clutch and starter issue as part of a “chain reaction.” They still haven't said how that would work, and before they were willing to acknowledge defects in the bike, which tells me they did not (and do not) know what the actual problem was, they just found a convenient way to pin it on the customer.

The point of this long story is the dealership says the warranty won't apply and a new transmission is $2000 + labor costs. They have exonerated my father of wrongdoing, but said Moto Guzzi still declined to cover the fix. So, with less than 2000 miles on the bike, and more time in the shop than on the road, he has to shell out that kind of money to get his bike back, with no guarantee the final drive or engine won't grenade in another 2000 miles and he'll be right back in the same spot.

My question for you guys is, does anyone have any connections at Moto Guzzi? The dealership has thus far not provided any contact information for their Moto Guzzi rep. He would like to go to someone at MG directly instead of working through the dealer, who hasn't been very helpful thus far. If any of you people know anyone at MG, or anywhere else, who might be able to do something, that would be greatly appreciated. The lemon law doesn't apply to motorcycles in his state and he will be talking to a lawyer next week about a breach of warranty claim, but that would be a stretch. The best option would be to work it out with the manufacture, but he doesn't know who to contact.

If you made it this far, thank you so much for reading. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, and take this as a caveat emptor if you are considering a V85TT.

Sounds like this you tube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFwa0WdQT5E and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-lr9I9XQ9U

Who did the initial 900 mile service/OIL change on the bike? I believe calls for changing the transmission oil and rear differential at 18K miles. Hard to diagnose over the internet obviously, but it is very unlikely the bike made it 1700 miles with so little oil in the trans, or the sounds and issues were ignored ending in the catastrophic failure on the trails. If it wasn't filled correctly from the factory, it must have leaked out, or was accidentally drained. No other options.

The ONLY thing to learn here is to NOT trust the manufacturer or dealer setup.  If your dad did not accidentally drain or attempt to drain the trans oil, and it was not touched by the owner, then it is a manufacturing issue, and the dealer who set up and delivered the bike should eat the cost.

Looking at the video and hearing about the cracked driveshaft housing is interesting. Would be helpful to know where this crack was. The rear 'pumpkin?'  the swing arm? The rear portion of the gearbox?

I'd be talking to a lawyer who would be talking to the dealer.

BTW, looking at the video of your dad, your comment on 'his being old' is hysterical, given that he is likely younger than most of the folks on this forum.....

[Zinfan]

In regards to the pumpkin oil change interval don't forget before the recall on early V85's to put in a extra seal to prevent oil leaking onto the rear tire it was thought the issue was overfilling the pumpkin so they put out a notice that during PDI to drain the pumpkin fully and then add exactly 160 ml of oil and leave it alone until I believe 30,000 km.  Turns out it was an assembly issue causing damage to an interior seal and not overfilling but the change interval as far as I know remains the same.  The V85 owners manual shows both the final drive oil and gearbox oil having intervals of 30,000 km so the oil didn't need to be changed out on this bike in question even at the 1500 km initial service. 

I myself changed all the oils on my V85 at 4500 miles and 12000 miles because I was in a good spot to do so at the time and aren't really comfortable with the 30,000 km (18,600 miles) interval called for but I'm sure the bikes will be just fine if you adhere to that schedule.

I agree with LesP that the 25 ml residual oil in the final drive is suspicious and we have nowhere near the whole story.   

[fotoguzzi]

Sounds like a hoax or fake news?

I'm wrong once again apologies to all..
Yikes that sounds really bad when he lets out the clutch.

[bad Chad]

Yep, not fake, I was skeptical too, but not after seeing the vid.

I still think everyone should keep their pants on until the OP responds with what if anything the Mother Ship offered.

[Moto Vita]

I'm wrong once again apologies to all..
Yikes that sounds really bad when he lets out the clutch.

The fact that disengaging the clutch stopped the noise indicated that the problem was likely in the gearbox, I would think any experienced mechanic would have known that.
 I doubt we'll ever hear the rest of this story, my experience has been that when there are this many holes in a story there's usually a reason.

[Huzo]

Where is the other 725 cc, in the swing arm ?

There’s a hole bored in the swingarm just forward of the bevelbox/swingarm joint face to stop fluids collecting there.