Author Topic: V85 TT Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs  (Read 337 times)

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V85 TT Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« on: August 02, 2020, 12:30:41 AM »
Hi, folks.

Have been searching on this for a while, but with all the references to horsepower and torque, I can't isolate information about torque tightening specifications.  I recall reading somewhere that some people had discovered loose bolts in important areas, so I am looking closely at things as I conduct the first service.  Guess what?  Yup, I have loose sump bolts!  Not sure how many yet, but I have tried two so far and both were loose enough that I could turn them with just finger pressure on a socket.  Disappointing!

Anyway, I'm going to use thread locker on any loose fasteners, and I want to torque them to the proper spec, but I am having trouble locating the specs!  The factory workshop manual refers to the "correct" or "prescribed" torque specification dozens of times, but doesn't seem to contain the actual specs anywhere  (other than a few places for mirrors, hand guards, etc., cause that's what's important, apparently).

Does anyone know where to find the table of specs they keep referring to?  I'd really like to get these right.

Thanks for any assistance.

Cheers,
Shaun

Edit:  I just found another copy of the manual that has the "Generic" torque settings for each size of bolt, so I assume that this is what they are referring to.  Should be good with this, although it would be nice to have specific values for engine parts.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 11:26:20 AM by smdl »
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2020, 12:49:35 AM »
Hi, folks.

Have been searching on this for a while, but with all the references to horsepower and torque, I can't isolate information about torque tightening specifications.  I recall reading somewhere that some people had discovered loose bolts in important areas, so I am looking closely at things as I conduct the first service.  Guess what?  Yup, I have loose sump bolts!  Not sure how many yet, but I have tried two so far and both were loose enough that I could turn them with just finger pressure on a socket.  Disappointing!

Anyway, I'm going to use thread locker on any loose fasteners, and I want to torque them to the proper spec, but I am having trouble locating the specs!  The factory workshop manual refers to the "correct" or "prescribed" torque specification dozens of times, but doesn't seem to contain the actual specs anywhere  (other than a few places for mirrors, hand guards, etc., cause that's what's important, apparently).

Does anyone know where to find the table of specs they keep referring to?  I'd really like to get these right.

Thanks for any assistance.

Cheers,
Shaun

Edit:  I just found another copy of the manual that has the "Generic" torque settings for each size of bolt, so I assume that this is what they are referring to.  Should be good with this, although it would be nice to have specific values for engine parts.
All the important specific fasteners have a torque spec usually in the front of the manual or front of their particular section in the manual. Other than that you use the general engineering torque specs for that particular grade and size of bolt. Motorcycles are nothing special or different from general engineering principles. Sump bolts are mostly M6 bolts so nothing special and not a particularly high stress or complex job to do.

Ciao

« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 12:49:50 AM by lucky phil »
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2020, 03:00:46 AM »
Thanks, Phil.

Yup, I found the generic values at the front of the manual, but it's the first time I have seen a motorcycle manual that had only the generic values.  As you say, it should be fine.  Just not what I was expecting.

Now, I get to go find out what else is loose! 🙄

Cheers,
Shaun
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Offline s1120

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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2020, 06:21:53 AM »
Thanks, Phil.

Yup, I found the generic values at the front of the manual, but it's the first time I have seen a motorcycle manual that had only the generic values.  As you say, it should be fine.  Just not what I was expecting.

Now, I get to go find out what else is loose! 🙄

Cheers,
Shaun

I went through the same thing when I got my Guzzi. I was used to auto manuals mostly, and as you said most specs were listed in the needed section. I also found some in older model manuals.. Seems most manuals are a update on older ones, and leave some of the old info out..  Then you have to try to find what older manual had the info..  Its kinda strange, and diferent.. but the things are so easy to work on, and most stuff just seems to use standerd specs, so thats nice.
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2020, 06:21:53 AM »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2020, 07:02:54 AM »
Quote
Anyway, I'm going to use thread locker on any loose fasteners, and I want to torque them to the proper spec

I'm opening a can of worms, but thread locker changes the torque spec. Torque tables are listed for *dry* threads. Thread locker is a lubricant, and... oh, never mind.  :grin:
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2020, 07:13:15 AM »
Keep it simple

Dry and clean



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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2020, 07:31:31 AM »
I have Moto Guzzi manuals that call out "lightly oiled" on torque specs.
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 07:59:17 AM »
I have Moto Guzzi manuals that call out "lightly oiled" on torque specs.

It should only matter what the manual in question says.

That said, I approach Guzzi torque specs on anything but critical fasteners with an eye of suspicion.
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2020, 10:47:22 AM »
Thanks, all.  I've worked on many Guzzis, from classic to new, and generally the torque values are in a specific table somewhere.  My V11 also had the the generic table (maybe the Stelvio, too), but I think this is the first time that I have seen no specific values listed.  I did a search on the PDF manual (I have 2 different electronic copies from different sources) and found that not even the generic values were listed in the first one, but there was continual reference to a table, which is why I posted.  I suspected that there was maybe an addendum that didn't get scanned with the rest of the manual.

Almost immediately afterwards, I realized that I had a different copy of the manual, so I searched that, found the generic table, and updated my post with that finding.  It had been a long day, so I didn't go back and search the first copy of the manual again, but I'm going to do that as I'd like to know if I just missed it.  Again, I really was expecting a specific table.

As for identifying the model of bike in my post, yep, that would have been a good idea.  🙄  Sorry about that -- it's a V85 TT as you've probably determined from my signature by now.

Thanks for the input on tightening fasteners, dry vs. lubricated, etc.  Is there a good reference that someone can point me to to understand how values should be adjusted when using thread locker?  I've never really found it to be an issue, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't attempt to do it correctly.  I'll check the website of the thread locker manufacturer. 

As for using thread locker or not, I used to not use it unless the manual specifically said to, but when I got into Guzzis, it seemed that sometimes things repeatedly vibrated off even after they were torqued to the recommended specification, so I started using thread locker more frequently.  Maybe too much.

I certainly understand how gaskets can compress, but I'm still stunned that a brand new motorcycle can arrive with (somewhat) critical engine fasteners that are loose.  Thinking of the number of cars and bikes that I have bought new over the years, I've generally not had to go out with my torque wrench after a few days to make sure that bolts don't fall out.  Seems that there must be a better way!

By the way, this is not the first interesting thing I have discovered in the V85 manuals.  In Canada, all manuals must come in both official languages, and the owner's manual starts off nicely in both English and French.  However, at some point (when the maintenance section starts, if I recall correctly), it loses the plot entirely and switches back to Italian and maybe Spanish?  It also has continual references to my obligation to notify NHTSA, EPA and other US government agencies if I spot anything unsafe or noncompliant.  I can just imagine how thrilled those agencies would be if I called them up to let them know that I had encountered issues!   :laugh:. You live where??   :thewife:

All of this is just part of the charm of owning an Italian motorcycle, and I've had countless hours of entertainment over the years trying to interpret what a particular phrase might have been intended to convey.  Much common sense usually needs to be applied, and I'm sometimes a bit short of that, so hilarity ensues.

As for the V85, I'm a real fan!  I covered about 450km yesterday, over varied terrain and surfaces, and am loving the nice, light handing.  I think this one's a keeper!

Cheers,
Shaun
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 10:50:38 AM by smdl »
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2020, 11:02:34 AM »
The rule of thumb is to reduce torque by 20% when using thread locker.. but that *is* a rule of thumb.  :smiley: Guzzi torque specs may or may not be correct, to boot.  :rolleyes: The only place I use a torque wrench is engine building, FWIW.
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2020, 11:25:15 AM »
The rule of thumb is to reduce torque by 20% when using thread locker.. but that *is* a rule of thumb.  :smiley: Guzzi torque specs may or may not be correct, to boot.  :rolleyes: The only place I use a torque wrench is engine building, FWIW.

Thanks, Chuck!

Shaun
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2020, 11:26:28 AM »
From Chuck:
Quote
The only place I use a torque wrench is engine building, FWIW.
With the CARC bikes USE A TORQUE WRENCH on the rear wheel! Firs time I replaced the rear tire in the Norge I didn't and almost lost my wheel at around 35mph.
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Re: V85 TT Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2020, 11:28:42 AM »
Post subject updated to reflect the model of bike.
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 11:29:33 AM »
Hey Shaun,     Congrats on the V85, glad you like it, that's a big change from some of the other bikes you've had in the herd.  :thumb:

    I share your opinion and experience with the manuals in regards to the torque specs in the modern manuals.

    When I first started working on guzzis a few years back, I accumulated many different manuals and much reference material for my CX100. Almost every single fastener had a recommended spec.

     Fast forward working on my CalVin, Griso & V11, it seemed the newer the model, the harder it was to find the OEM recommended torque spec.

     I've gathered a ton of reference material, but it's all in PDF, so it's a pita to edit and manage properly, fwiw.

     Over time I've come to rely on instinct & common sense ie smaller wrenches, one finger, lighter touch etc especially when it comes to the fragile valve cover & sump bolts.

     I like having a good selection of old fashioned beam torque wrenches ie, 1/2",3/8",1/4" drives on hand, to give me a point of reference for the force I'm actually applying.

     Good luck with the new ride, wishing you many safe miles  :bike-037:

     And no stripped bolts, lol,   :popcorn:  :evil:

     Kelly 
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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2020, 11:40:06 AM »
Hey Shaun,     Congrats on the V85, glad you like it, that's a big change from some of the other bikes you've had in the herd.  :thumb:

    I share your opinion and experience with the manuals in regards to the torque specs in the modern manuals.

    When I first started working on guzzis a few years back, I accumulated many different manuals and much reference material for my CX100. Almost every single fastener had a recommended spec.

     Fast forward working on my CalVin, Griso & V11, it seemed the newer the model, the harder it was to find the OEM recommended torque spec.

     I've gathered a ton of reference material, but it's all in PDF, so it's a pita to edit and manage properly, fwiw.

     Over time I've come to rely on instinct & common sense ie smaller wrenches, one finger, lighter touch etc especially when it comes to the fragile valve cover & sump bolts.

     I like having a good selection of old fashioned beam torque wrenches ie, 1/2",3/8",1/4" drives on hand, to give me a point of reference for the force I'm actually applying.

     Good luck with the new ride, wishing you many safe miles  :bike-037:

     And no stripped bolts, lol,   :popcorn:  :evil:

     Kelly

Hey, Kelly, good to hear from you!  Thanks for the kind wishes -- I think I'm really going to like this one.

Yes, it's fun going back through all the old manuals and spotting the trends and inconsistencies.  Never boring, for sure!

I agree about getting a 'feel' for fasteners over the years, and I'm generally pretty comfortable.  However, as this is my first small block, I'm taking things extra slowly and carefully as I grow accustomed. 

Take care,
Shaun

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Re: V85 TT Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2020, 03:54:36 PM »
That was a known issue for the Tiger 1050.  Dozens of us removed the screws, applied blue lock tight, stainless lock washers, tightened them up, and never had a problem.  None of us.
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Re: V85 TT Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2020, 08:06:13 PM »
Hi, folks.

I just finally got back out to the workshop and the computer that I was working on when I started this thread last night.  Having had a look at this more closely, I thought I should post with more information in case anyone else finds themselves with similar questions in future.

Being that this is first time working on this bike, what I didn't realize last night was that there are two separate workshop manuals for the V85.  One for the bike, and a separate one for the engine (makes me think that there will be other models soon that use this engine).  I guess  I should have paid more attention when I downloaded these documents a few weeks back!  Anyway, the shop manual for the bike itself doesn't have the General Tightening Torques table (generic values), but that table is present in the engine manual.  Along with the table, there is a note that indicates "If the following tables do not expressly indicate the tightening torque values, refer to the table with the
generic torque values indicated below.".  I'd still prefer specific torque values, but this does cover it.

I'd feel worse about the initial oversight, but I think the confusion is at least somewhat understandable.  Why?  Well, the maintenance section, which includes engine maintenance, such as oil change, valve adjustment, etc., is found in the motorcycle manual -- not the engine manual.  Also, the name of the motorcycle manual document is "workshop_manual_v85 _en.pdf", so unless you know that there is a separate engine manual, there's really nothing to indicate that you're missing a piece of the puzzle unless you really look for it.  So, there I was, going through the engine maintenance procedure, looking at pictures of the engine where the oil filter is being changed, and expecting to see at least something about engine torque specs there.

Anyway, just thought it better to post and mention my error rather than just leaving things without explanation.  Bottom line is to make sure you have both workshop manuals (and actually look at them :rolleyes:  :laugh:).

Does anyone know if other modern Guzzi models use this model of separate workshop manuals for the engine?

Cheers,
Shaun

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Re: Initial Service - Bolts Loose - Torque Specs
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2020, 10:40:00 PM »
The rule of thumb is to reduce torque by 20% when using thread locker.. but that *is* a rule of thumb.  :smiley: Guzzi torque specs may or may not be correct, to boot.  :rolleyes: The only place I use a torque wrench is engine building, FWIW.
Same same Chuck and even then only for rod bolts and head studs really but for most a torque wrench isn't a bad thing. Not a very good way of tightening a fastener but sometimes it's the only option.

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