Road trip failure. Bearing failure

[wirespokes]

Good quality tapered roller bearings should outlast the bike with proper preload and lube. Unless one failed I wouldn't replace it.

[n3303j]

Good quality tapered roller bearings should outlast the bike with proper preload and lube. Unless one failed I wouldn't replace it.

Taper roller disappeared with my '66 BMW. They required skill to setup with proper preload. Set up properly and kept clean they ran forever.

Ball bearings are "just fit them into a properly designed hub and drive away". Anyone can replace ball bearings.

Properly selected for the application ball bearings will last a really long timr.

[wirespokes]

Tapered roller bearings are used in automotive applications because they handle side loads much better. Yes, ball bearings are easy, but they don't hold up as well. Roller bearings are over-kill on a motorcycle, but can outlast the bike easily. All of my airheads have tapered rollers including the swing arm and steering. As I recall, the LM4 steering head uses tapered rollers, but earlier bikes like the 850T used ball bearings. Ball bearings will do fine in a motorcycle, but if it's got a sidecar mounted you want rollers.

[n3303j]

Tapered roller bearings are used in automotive applications because they handle side loads much better. Yes, ball bearings are easy, but they don't hold up as well. Roller bearings are over-kill on a motorcycle, but can outlast the bike easily. All of my airheads have tapered rollers including the swing arm and steering. As I recall, the LM4 steering head uses tapered rollers, but earlier bikes like the 850T used ball bearings. Ball bearings will do fine in a motorcycle, but if it's got a sidecar mounted you want rollers.

Ural switched all wheels to ball bearing a few years back with no problems.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Tapered roller bearings are used in automotive applications because they handle side loads much better. Yes, ball bearings are easy, but they don't hold up as well. Roller bearings are over-kill on a motorcycle, but can outlast the bike easily. All of my airheads have tapered rollers including the swing arm and steering. As I recall, the LM4 steering head uses tapered rollers, but earlier bikes like the 850T used ball bearings. Ball bearings will do fine in a motorcycle, but if it's got a sidecar mounted you want rollers.

All of the "big blocks" '67 V700 onward used tapered roller bearings in the steering head, as well as in the swingarm pivot (up to the CARC bikes? which I know little about). The single and twin-leading-shoe drum brakes of Loopframes used tapered rollers as well, the 4LS drum uses ball bearings. The last Loop out of production was the '76 V700 (for police and miliatary only) which still had a single leading rear brake and tapered roller bearings. The Loop tapered rollers are easy to set up, if cleaned and repacked on occasion they will last "forever".

[GeorgiaGuzzi]

Well guys and gals, we have a winner of what happened to cut short my road trip.







So, turns out the All Balls brand bearing on the pulley side terminally failed. The reason I replaced it was because the old bearing on the same side was failing. Turns out All Balls is made in China, which while I’m not anti-China I do suspect their metals based on previous experiences. I’m still selling the bike, I’m going to do another post about that because the bearing failure is not the ultimate reason I’m selling.

[Tom]

SKF bearings would probably have been better even the ones made in Dalian, China.   Hope the repair & sale goes well.   

[n3303j]

No chance the inner spacer was left out of the installation? Only time I've seen bearings eaten up like that is under excessive preload (or a load the bearing wasn't designed for).

[TN Mark]

Improper bearing installation would also cause that. I'm NOT saying improper installation caused this particular issue. But, I've seen many people fail to use the proper sized tool to seat bearings. Many use a 'close enough' sized socket and ruin the bearing by hammering it in place.

[80CX100]

Well guys and gals, we have a winner of what happened to cut short my road trip.

<Turns out All Balls is made in China, which while I’m not anti-China I do suspect their metals based on previous experiences.

     The last time I changed a set of wheel bearings, it was on my 3 ton single axle utility trailer, I did the job on the weekend and rather than the quality SKFs from General Bearing Supply I would normally use, I used jobber bearings/races from Benson Auto Supply.

     The difference in quality was very apparent, you could tell just by looking at the steel in the new ones it was crap,,, if weight was any indicator of quality, the new jobbers in the hand felt 1/3-1/2 the weight of the old ones I had removed. aaarrrggghhhh.

     In the future I'll make sure to have good SKFs on hand, BEFORE I start tearing things apart.

     Glad to hear that you got stopped and home safely, and it's an easy fix.

     Good luck with your decision with the bike.

     Kelly   

[GeorgiaGuzzi]

No chance the inner spacer was left out of the installation? Only time I've seen bearings eaten up like that is under excessive preload (or a load the bearing wasn't designed for).

There is no inner spacer per se on this model Victory. Not even seals on the ends of the bearings ie bearing with 3-4 mm of space with a seal in the 3-4 mm of space. The bearings came with seals, but the wheel had no seals in place when I removed it and if I installed the seals the outer spacers would not fit. there is an inner sleeve that goes between the bearings the the axle shaft passes thru. It was installed properly. No excessive preload, I made sure to tighten everything to spec exactly. And I wasn’t loaded down that heavy. Maybe 35 pounds of gear all told. Nowhere close to two up weight.

[lucky phil]

There is no inner spacer per se on this model Victory. Not even seals on the ends of the bearings ie bearing with 3-4 mm of space with a seal in the 3-4 mm of space. The bearings came with seals, but the wheel had no seals in place when I removed it and if I installed the seals the outer spacers would not fit. there is an inner sleeve that goes between the bearings the the axle shaft passes thru. It was installed properly. No excessive preload, I made sure to tighten everything to spec exactly. And I wasn’t loaded down that heavy. Maybe 35 pounds of gear all told. Nowhere close to two up weight.

Have you checked the parts manual to make sure that the spacer/sleeve wasn't left out originally thus causing the original bearings to fail? Most unusual for this type of installation to have no spacer. Even wheels fitted with a spacer thats too short will tend to eat wheel bearings. Its the classic issue with bikes that have short wheel bearing life.
EDIT ....re reading you mention no inner spacer but there was an inner sleeve? So was there an inner sleeve that the axle passes through that engages with the inner bearing races? This sleeve or spacer as I call it is designed to take the compressive load from tightening the axle nut so the bearing inner races aren't loaded which causes premature failure. As mentioned even if this spacer is fitted but is too short in length it causes shortened bearing life due to the loads exerted by the axle tension on the inner bearing races trying to squeeze them together. Ball bearings primary load path is radial not lateral.

Ciao

[GeorgiaGuzzi]

Well, Phil, you have found the cause of the bearing failure. I left a couple of millimeters on the ends of the spacer because I thought it shouldn’t be rubbing against the inner bearing races. So I should have made sure the spacer was snugged up. Of well, mea culpa.

However, this just proves what a great resource the people here are!

[John A]

It’s just the price of knowledge.  Thanks for telling us.

[TN Mark]

OEM bearings from online places like www.partspitstop.co m are only $30 for the set for a 2003 V92 Cruiser. Plus they show the Illustrated Parts Breakdown (IPB) making it very clear how things go together and what other parts are involved.

The oem wheel bearings for my later 2012 Victory CCT are $90/set and have Made In Japan right on the package. 

I'd guess if you have a local bearing supply store high quality quality bearings can be had for much less.

[lucky phil]

Well, Phil, you have found the cause of the bearing failure. I left a couple of millimeters on the ends of the spacer because I thought it shouldn’t be rubbing against the inner bearing races. So I should have made sure the spacer was snugged up. Of well, mea culpa.

However, this just proves what a great resource the people here are!

Ok, good to know what the issue was and it's a straight forward fix.

Ciao

[wirespokes]

Well done, Phil, for thinking of that. It hadn't occurred to me the inner spacer could be the culprit.

It's obvious now - the clue being the original bearing failing as well.

Glad you got to the bottom of it, GG, and can move on. That sure settles the issue for me.

[lucky phil]

Well done, Phil, for thinking of that. It hadn't occurred to me the inner spacer could be the culprit.

It's obvious now - the clue being the original bearing failing as well.

Glad you got to the bottom of it, GG, and can move on. That sure settles the issue for me.

Thanks. I always check the spacer length when I replace wheel bearings for the first time on a wheel or I think the wheel bearing has failed prematurely. I don't know why but the Italians seem a bit lax with this compared to the Japanese.

Ciao

[wirespokes]

It's the same with the old airheads (where I come from) as well - they weren't very well set up from the factory and needed fine tuning. Unless I've got the wheel bearings out, I just check for play or binding. I obviously assumed all was good in that department and didn't even think of it in this case, since it's something I'd have noticed first off. We all know the problem with assumptions, but most of the time they're below the level of consciousness so don't get inspected. Good of you to bring it up.

[Muzz]

One I liked was called a tomahawk, that consisted of a wooden handle and wooden 'hammer' that held caps (from cap guns.  We'd put 3-4 caps in the hammer, then insert the projectile, a small plug with feathers on it, and strike the gound with a healthy swing.  The caps exploded, and the feather'd projectile would head for the stars!

Bob

My favourite toy.

My striker was a brass "combstion chamber" that had a groove machined in it and you tied a piece of string to it.  You just had to make sure you stood to one side when you threw it down.  O.S.H would have a fit these days.

[lucky phil]

It's the same with the old airheads (where I come from) as well - they weren't very well set up from the factory and needed fine tuning. Unless I've got the wheel bearings out, I just check for play or binding. I obviously assumed all was good in that department and didn't even think of it in this case, since it's something I'd have noticed first off. We all know the problem with assumptions, but most of the time they're below the level of consciousness so don't get inspected. Good of you to bring it up.

Here's another wheel bearing tip/learning. For quite a few klms on my V11 I had what I would describe as a light clatter/or rattly vibration through the l/h foot peg on a "floating" throttle only. It wasn't alarming but noticeable as something different. I suspected the drive shaft or rear wheel bearings and check but they seemed ok. I checked the wheel by the usual grab the wheel and twist method and all seemed good. A while later I did something on the bike, cant remember what in the workshop and seemed to notice rear wheel movement. I grabbed a piece of wood and levered against the tyre and swing arm and there was movement. Long story short you sometimes need more force at least at the rear wheel to identify a bad bearing. The drive side was totally shot and had very few klms left in it before it would have failed. Still dont know why the feeling was in the l/h peg when the drive side bearing was the issue, but if you feel this sensation it's a wheel bearing.
Another one. On my ST2 Ducati commuting to work I noticed the front brake lever free travel kept changing. I pull up at a set of lights and it would be normal and after a few klms and corners it would be coming almost back to the bars. Next stop after a small straigh section, lever normal. had me looking for a brake defect until I checked the front wheel bearings....Both shot. What was happening was the worn wheel bearings were allowing wheel movement which would after a few klms and corners was pushing the pads back into the calipers. A stop at the lights and they were pumped back again and would even stay there for a few klms esp on a straight road but corners and they would push back again. Replaced the front wheel bearings and all fixed. You may ask didn't the steering feel a little vauge with shot front wheel bearings? the answer id yes it did but I didn't realise until they were changed out and I got my brakes back to normal and also the steering was now fantastic. the degradation in the steering was gradual and you tend to compensate and not realise how bad it is until something like this happens. Learnings.
So varying front brake lever travel......check the front wheel bearings.

Ciao     

[Wayne Orwig]

When the rear wheel bearings failed on my EV, I just walked a few miles to the auto parts store and replaced the bearings in a hotel parking lot.
Luckily there was a microbrew along the way to let me take a break.

[Ncdan]

I had an EV that spat all the balls out of the front on one side, I was worried that I would have to trailer it back but no it ran just fine with only one bearing, I did buy a small can of oil and with a straw put oil in where the balls came out of thinking the two races would be rubbing together.
So if you have an EV and the wheel bearing quits, don't panic just take it easy and you will be fine, there was no damage done to the wheel.

Keep riding it would be a little spooky to me. Could there not be a quick catastrophic failure in a situation like that?

[lucky phil]

I had an EV that spat all the balls out of the front on one side, I was worried that I would have to trailer it back but no it ran just fine with only one bearing, I did buy a small can of oil and with a straw put oil in where the balls came out of thinking the two races would be rubbing together.
So if you have an EV and the wheel bearing quits, don't panic just take it easy and you will be fine, there was no damage done to the wheel.

I remember Ian Gowanloch doing this once on a Motoplast Kawasaki. Hard on the failed side brake pads,caliper and disk as these components are now trying the support the failed bearing side. Not something I would consider doing Roy unless home was just around the corner.

Ciao 

[ccoli]

These are off my sidecar wheel. Same indication as Phil. Rear brake needs to be pumped up after turns.
Happens all too often, about every 10k miles or so depending on the curves. This particular failure was repaired in a WG members garage in Fairbanks Alaska. I had a spare set with, and was able to restock my supply while in town. Obviously ball bearings are wrong for this particular application. I eventually plan to have the hub machined to fit tapered rollers. I just need to find a round TUIT.

Here's another wheel bearing tip/learning.
Another one. On my ST2 Ducati commuting to work I noticed the front brake lever free travel kept changing. I pull up at a set of lights and it would be normal and after a few klms and corners it would be coming almost back to the bars. Next stop after a small straigh section, lever normal. had me looking for a brake defect until I checked the front wheel bearings....Both shot. What was happening was the worn wheel bearings were allowing wheel movement which would after a few klms and corners was pushing the pads back into the calipers. A stop at the lights and they were pumped back again and would even stay there for a few klms esp on a straight road but corners and they would push back again. Replaced the front wheel bearings and all fixed. You may ask didn't the steering feel a little vauge with shot front wheel bearings? the answer id yes it did but I didn't realise until they were changed out and I got my brakes back to normal and also the steering was now fantastic. the degradation in the steering was gradual and you tend to compensate and not realise how bad it is until something like this happens. Learnings.
So varying front brake lever travel......check the front wheel bearings.

Ciao   

[Sasquatch Jim]

I remember those. We used to use scissors to trim all the paper we could thereby able to stuff more caps into the hammer.
 It would sound like a magnum pistol and the projectile would fly so high and far that it was frequently lost.  If the projectile was fired enough times like that the hammer was too enlarged to make good power.  It sure did make our ears ring though.

[lucky phil]

I guess you guys always have a backup then, I was 200 km from home
I was 100 km from the I5 on Cascades highway, I crept along for a while until I realized nothing was going to happen stopped at the first bike shop I could find.
Even with no balls in the bearing it still offers some support.

No Roy not really. If it has lost its ball it ain't supportin anything. The only thing with balls left was you:) big ones to continue riding it:) As I said the support was the brake caliper,pads and disk on the failed side now  keeping the failed side up, along with the good side coping with the added leverage from the one bearing wheel.

Ciao

[Ncdan]

No Roy not really. If it has lost its ball it ain't supportin anything. The only thing with balls left was you:) big ones to continue riding it:) As I said the support was the brake caliper,pads and disk on the failed side now  keeping the failed side up, along with the good side coping with the added leverage from the one bearing wheel.

Ciao

You are right Ciao as I, unfortunately, have seen the effects of a bearing failure and it’s not only disastrous to the bike it can be disastrous to the rider and passenger. In the end it’s a decision an individual makes and then lives, or not, with the consequences.

[wirespokes]

Some guys just don't understand us, Roy. No biggie. I'd probably have done the same thing.

I recall my first bike, a Honda 150 dream, locked up the rear wheel at about 35mph five miles from home. Fishtailed to a stop without crashing. Couldn't see anything wrong. Started it back up and the bike rolled normally. Rode it back home at five or ten mph and pulled the rear wheel. Found one of the sprocket mounting bolts had fallen inside and jammed the works.

Sometimes you just do what you've gotta do. I've been either dirt poor or really tight with my cash so have had to figure out solutions to whatever came up. It can be a lot of fun, actually, if you're not under the gun time-wise.

A mechanic friend told me a story about his VW dying in the middle of the night on a remote section of HWY 1 in California. This was back in the 60s. It was dark, of course being the middle of the night, and cold, so he couldn't really diagnose what was wrong. But he did figure out something was wrong with the fuel delivery. It wasn't getting any. The solution he arrived at was taking apart a ball point pen and putting the writing end into the fuel line. He squished the pointy end down really fine and pointed it into the carb throat. It ran poorly, but was able to hobble along at about 35 and make it where he needed to go.

When you've worked on your own stuff, you get a 'feel' for it and can sort of perceive it and just know if something will work or not. If it's really dangerous, or not - how much (or little) to expect from it or how hard it can be pushed.

[lucky phil]

There's still the inner race and the outer race between the axel and the wheel
I was in a foreign country a long way from home, I would do the same again if I had to.
Thats all i'm going to say.

I do understand Roy and i'm not here to win an argument but to pass on hopefully safe and sensible information to people. I've done sketchy stuff in the past and gotten away with it but I'd not recommend it publicly to anyone and upon reflection almost certainly wouldn't do it again. That's what judgement, experience and maturity brings to the table.
So my advice to anyone out there is if you find a failed wheel bearing on a ride no matter where and when park the bike and sort out an alternative. Better a side of the road breakdown in a foreign land than a hospital bed or worse in a foreign land.

Ciao