For you Fly Guys... NGC

[radguzzi]

  
I had an opportunity to bring a couple of friends to the local small State Airport one day last week.  The mission was to have them meet up with a friend from Mass and fly back for some fun and a visit with relatives. 

Imagine my surprise when the plane we were to look for ended up being a Diamond DA 62.  Just wow. 
 
The pilot gave me the grand tour and I did not even think of the price of such an aircraft until I came home and told Sue Ellen about it...  we looked it up.  Holy Cow.  

Well, the guy Is a billionaire. 

Be well everyone, 
Rob

[Gliderjohn]

Yes, very nice airplanes to say the least.



GliderJohn

[Lannis]

I wish you'd be more careful with your thread titles .... I was hoping to find a friend ...



The Fly

[guzzisteve]

I'll bet at that $ there's no triangle flashing on the dash.

[Lannis]

Is $1.25M really a lot for that kind of machine?   I don't know much about airplanes, but what does a new twin-engine top of the line Beechcraft or Cessna cost?

Lannis

[john fish]

Was that Tony Stark?  Looked pretty slick.

[lucky phil]

Looks fast just parked in front of the hangar.

EDIT............Pow ered by diesel engines, that takes the shine off.

Ciao

[kirby1923]

Is $1.25M really a lot for that kind of machine?   I don't know much about airplanes, but what does a new twin-engine top of the line Beechcraft or Cessna cost?

Lannis

A single engine Bonanza (Beech) will spec about $950K and its twin engine brother the Barron about $1.3+M. Of course this is new.

In '80 you could buy a new Bonanza for around $75K and right now I could buy a used baron (twin engine non pressurized.)  for about $200K.

Operating costs are high.

[Two Checks]

Yep, the Beech Baron G58 is almost a direct comparison to the Diamond. Comparable payload and speed but the fuel burn on the Baron is more than double. And to enter the Baron you must enter from the right side.
The price? Right at $1.5 mil.

[Murray]

Looks fast just parked in front of the hangar.

EDIT............Pow ered by diesel engines, that takes the shine off.

Ciao

Compression ignition, whats a magneto failure? Most of the light ga aircraft are running around with motors that take advantage of all the latest 1930's technology. Frugal motors mean the less fuel you need to carry faster and more range.

[kirby1923]

A big disadvantage to have a diesel powered light aircraft is that you can't buy diesel fuel at small airports. So you have to use Jet-A which is jet fuel. If your airport has less than 6000' it is not likely to have much jet traffic(if any) therefore probably 90%  of general aviation airports in the USA are under 5000' length don't have Jet-A or diesel.

BIG limiting factor  for most potential owners of such aircraft...

BTW...
That "thirties technology" works pretty damn good. Basic diesel tech is even older...

[wrbix]

A big disadvantage to have a diesel powered light aircraft is that you can't buy diesel fuel at small airports. So you have to use Jet-A which is jet fuel. If your airport has less than 6000' it is not likely to have much jet traffic(if any) therefore probably 90%  of general aviation airports in the USA are under 5000' length don't have Jet-A or diesel.

BIG limiting factor  for most potential owners of such aircraft...

BTW...
That "thirties technology" works pretty damn good. Basic diesel tech is even older...

Doubt the 90% figure is true. In my experience flying to a number of small GA airports, a sizable (?majority) have Jet-A. Remember, turboprops also burn Jet-A.

AAMOF, just did an AirNav search of airports within 50miles of KVJI - 10 of 11 have Jet-A. This is not big airport country.

[kirby1923]

You have to ask yourself, out of the 4500 or so public airports in the USA why would you pay $1.2m for an aircraft where 75% or so of them either don't have Jet A or say they do but don't because of lack of demand keep their system certified.
For the same money and very near the same performance you can get a avgas fueled aircraft that can land and fuel at virtually any of them.

For casual and private use this is not a wise investment.

[wrbix]

You have to ask yourself, out of the 4500 or so public airports in the USA why would you pay $1.2m for an aircraft where 75% or so of them either don't have Jet A or say they do but don't because of lack of demand keep their system certified.
For the same money and very near the same performance you can get a avgas fueled aircraft that can land and fuel at virtually any of them.

For casual and private use this is not a wise investment.

Again, where are you getting these 90% and 75% figures?

[Murray]

BTW...
That "thirties technology" works pretty damn good. Basic diesel tech is even older...

Drinks like a fish and costs a fortune to rebuild, in the 4WD community people will tell you how reliable a Toyota 70 series landcruiser is what they fail the mention is ti drinks like a fish and its service intervals are half of everything else.

[Lannis]

You have to ask yourself, out of the 4500 or so public airports in the USA why would you pay $1.2m for an aircraft where 75% or so of them either don't have Jet A or say they do but don't because of lack of demand keep their system certified.
For the same money and very near the same performance you can get a avgas fueled aircraft that can land and fuel at virtually any of them.

For casual and private use this is not a wise investment.

I used to drive a Morgan +8 with a LPG-fueled engine (Morgan didn't make enough cars to certify their 215 cu in aluminum V8 for the USA).

You'd have thought it would be a huge hassle.  It wasn't.  You just planned ahead.  You found out all the places on the route or in your community that had LPG, and you tanked up there.   You can almost get an LPG tank filled in more places than you can get a gasoline tank filled.

In a sense, it was a little like an electric car, with the two blazing counterexamples that it only took a couple of minutes to fuel it up, and you could go 300 miles between refuelings.

I understand that you don't have as much flexibility in where you fuel up in an airplane, which means maybe that you can't just meander around the country and say "Hey, there's a grass strip and a hanger and a shed down there, let's stop in and ride into town for dinner", but surely, with a fast plane with that range, you've got plenty of options.   The 70 to 90% figure surely includes a lot of tiny grass strips that you wouldn't be flying a hot twin-engined plane into very often anyhow; those are for Piper Cubs and Cessna 152s ....

Lannis

[wrbix]

I used to drive a Morgan +8 with a LPG-fueled engine (Morgan didn't make enough cars to certify their 215 cu in aluminum V8 for the USA).

You'd have thought it would be a huge hassle.  It wasn't.  You just planned ahead.  You found out all the places on the route or in your community that had LPG, and you tanked up there.   You can almost get an LPG tank filled in more places than you can get a gasoline tank filled.

In a sense, it was a little like an electric car, with the two blazing counterexamples that it only took a couple of minutes to fuel it up, and you could go 300 miles between refuelings.

I understand that you don't have as much flexibility in where you fuel up in an airplane, which means maybe that you can't just meander around the country and say "Hey, there's a grass strip and a hanger and a shed down there, let's stop in and ride into town for dinner", but surely, with a fast plane with that range, you've got plenty of options.   The 70 to 90% figure surely includes a lot of tiny grass strips that you wouldn't be flying a hot twin-engined plane into very often anyhow; those are for Piper Cubs and Cessna 152s ....

Lannis

Those private turf airstrips are very unlikely to have 100LL AvGas either.

[cloudbase]

Operating costs are high.

Non-operating costs are pretty high, too.

[kirby1923]

Again, where are you getting these 90% and 75% figures?

I have been in the the aircraft engine business and part owner in aircraft kit business for several years and we have  used considerable amount of resources on market studies...

I have also had the use of a MU 2K for some time and have run into the "no jet a problem a few times. In a turbo prop you can use avgas in a pinch, can't do that with a diesel.

No successful aviation diesel engine (operational or financial) since WWII(Jumo 6cylinder 12 piston 2cycle inline)and its because of the reasons I have mentioned. One I didn't mention is that Jet A is highly susceptible to biological organisms growth in the fuel tanks.

I like the diesel cycle but disadvantages outweigh the advantages by a bunch for flight. There isn't much advantage in fuel consumption either. Jet A is heaver per gal than avgas and when you compare fuel consumption its only about 10% to 11 % different. An aircooled piston aircraft engine can be leaned to about .450 lbs/hp/hour(or a bit better) and a typical diesel will be about .350 to .360 lbs/hp/hour.

Data on airports is available on line from DOT/FAA sources. Last number I have seen was 4700 public airports of which about 3200 have 3000 to 5000'paved runways. If you count ALL general aviation airstrips, private as well there are about 12,000. A few will have Jet-A like at airport communities or ranch/business strips that regularly fly turbine helos.

Only sure way to verify Jet-A is available call them ahead if time. I have found you sometimes need to prearrange Jet-A because they can get a Jet-A truck/fueler if needed.(no storage on site).

I have no interest in getting into a Google fight here...

[kirby1923]

I used to drive a Morgan +8 with a LPG-fueled engine (Morgan didn't make enough cars to certify their 215 cu in aluminum V8 for the USA).

You'd have thought it would be a huge hassle.  It wasn't.  You just planned ahead.  You found out all the places on the route or in your community that had LPG, and you tanked up there.   You can almost get an LPG tank filled in more places than you can get a gasoline tank filled.

In a sense, it was a little like an electric car, with the two blazing counterexamples that it only took a couple of minutes to fuel it up, and you could go 300 miles between refuelings.

I understand that you don't have as much flexibility in where you fuel up in an airplane, which means maybe that you can't just meander around the country and say "Hey, there's a grass strip and a hanger and a shed down there, let's stop in and ride into town for dinner", but surely, with a fast plane with that range, you've got plenty of options.   The 70 to 90% figure surely includes a lot of tiny grass strips that you wouldn't be flying a hot twin-engined plane into very often anyhow; those are for Piper Cubs and Cessna 152s ....

Lannis

Edit:
I never intended my comments to be construed as a SAFETY issue, its more of a practical/convenience issue.



I've flown a 10,000 lb turbo prop aircraft into very short remote grass fields, so it does happen.


:-)

[Murray]

Edit:
I never intended my comments to be construed as a SAFETY issue, its more of a practical/convenience issue.



I've flown a 10,000 lb turbo prop aircraft into very short remote grass fields, so it does happen.


:-)

I suspect you wouldn't need to take your shoes off to count the number of crop dusting operations still running reciprocating engines.

[Tusayan]

Despite being fuel efficient, the Diesels are very expensive to run.  They are throw away engines after a certain operating or calendar time, they can’t be overhauled or field serviced, and liquid cooling is a bigger issue than you might imagine, for example periodic hose replacements are outrageously expensive.  Then there’s the turbos and automated controls that aren’t usually necessary for a light aircraft engine, redundant electrical system, and for the plane itself the extremely long wingspan that makes a reasonably priced hangar unavailable. 

I’m professionally involved with these engines, or actually very similar versions of the same - they are fine for military users with deep pockets but I wouldn’t want to own one (I do own an aircraft with something else installed).

[lucky phil]

Despite being fuel efficient, the Diesels are very expensive to run.  They are throw away engines after a certain operating or calendar time, they can’t be overhauled or field serviced, and liquid cooling is a bigger issue than you might imagine, for example periodic hose replacements are outrageously expensive.  Then there’s the turbos and automated controls that aren’t usually necessary for a light aircraft engine, redundant electrical system, and for the plane itself the extremely long wingspan that makes a reasonably priced hangar unavailable. 

I’m professionally involved with these engines, or actually very similar versions of the same - they are fine for military users with deep pockets but I wouldn’t want to own one (I do own an aircraft with something else installed).

Although I'm an aircraft engineer by profession and frankly know nothing about aero diesels I do know that these light automotive common rail diesels are by and large rubbish. Seriously, diesels are fantastic for heavy equipment, and other stationary functions where being massively heavy and robust isn't a negative because thats what they need to be to be bullet proof but in my experience all these modern common rail diesels are far less sensible for the average person.
I mean there are particulate filters, inlets manifolds that coke up MEGA expensive fuel pumps and componentry and here at least more expensive fuel. And the up side? better fuel economy. I've seen plenty of theses thing go wrong in small ways and in big and my conclusion is that a light diesel isn't practical for the everyday user. Too expensive to repair, too dirty, less tolerance to everyday muppett mistakes, and horrendously expensive,read impractical, to repair if something major occurs.
In my view the fitment to light vehicles was primarily a European idea when fuel prices were horrendously expensive for them so they developed the light diesel. Fine I guess if you flip your vehicle every 3 years or so but I've seen so many horror stories with them from friends and work colleagues that I've sworn off them. Never for me.

Ciao       

[Motormike]

Everyone is missing the point.  In an era of --19, rich folks don't want to fly commercial any more.  Not even in first class.  Corporate jets, turboprops, fractional ownership like Netjets, and privately owned light aircraft like the one shown are where the action is today.  Fly commercial?  Strictly for the hoi polloi. As evidence, all you have to do it search for all the many Youtube videos of fights and altercations that take place on commercial aircraft on a seemingly weekly basis.  The rich and well-to-do have opted out.  Can't say as I blame them.

[lucky phil]

Everyone is missing the point.  In an era of --19, rich folks don't want to fly commercial any more.  Not even in first class.  Corporate jets, turboprops, fractional ownership like Netjets, and privately owned light aircraft like the one shown are where the action is today.  Fly commercial?  Strictly for the hoi polloi. As evidence, all you have to do it search for all the many Youtube videos of fights and altercations that take place on commercial aircraft on a seemingly weekly basis.  The rich and well-to-do have opted out.  Can't say as I blame them.

Really, ok didn't know the private business flying was doing well in these times, thought the opposite would be the case. Then again I'm not that surprised. I guess the really expensive car market is still probably quite buoyant as well.

Ciao

[Huzo]

Beautiful a/c..
I thought for that money, it may have had the benefit of contra rotating engines (props).
I was messing around with a Seminole the other day an interestingly, it does. The reduced drag you inherit by not having to wind on aerodynamic trim tabs, would surely add to performance.
Also that colour would hide nicely against a gloomy storm cloud filled sky. But have it washed and brought to my tent..
I’ll take it...!

[Gliderjohn]

From Murray:

I suspect you wouldn't need to take your shoes off to count the number of crop dusting operations still running reciprocating engines.

They are getting rare but there is a radial engine one still working the area here in SC Kansas. This picture taken by my house.


GliderJohn

[Huzo]

From Murray:They are getting rare but there is a radial engine one still working the area here in SC Kansas. This picture taken by my house.


GliderJohn

Would make a good glider tug GJ.

[Lannis]

Fly commercial?  Strictly for the hoi polloi.

Our company used to charter a pair of Cessna Citation jets so that if we needed to provide instant customer service across the country, we could have a team on site anywhere on the continent in a few hours.

When they weren't being used for critical issues, they were available for project review teams, and other less time-critical jobs.   If you filled the plane up, it was a little more money to the company than flying commercial, but since the plane was there anyway, and the pilots on call, might as well use them.

It was the greatest luxury to us since sliced bread, peanut butter, and hot running water.

If we had to travel from, say, Lynchburg, Virginia to Scottsboro, Alabama we could either drive 8 hours, or book a commercial flight, drive to the airport, get molested by TSA goons, hurry-up-and-wait, then squeeze into a cattle car, fly to Charlotte, NC, change planes, get to Huntsville, Alabama 6 hours after you started, rent a car, and drive an hour to Scottsboro.  The same 8 hours total it takes to drive.

OR you could drive to the airport, walk STRAIGHT onto the Citation, wheels up 10 minutes after you got there, 55 minute flight in luxurious leather seats with drinks and snacks, land in Scottsboro a mile from your meeting room, get off the plane, and you're at your destination an hour and a half after you left your office in Lynchburg.

It's the biggest lifestyle discriminator that I know.   Bill Gates uses the same kind of toilet I do, eats the same kind of food, sleeps in the same kind of bed, his hot water is the same 120 degrees as mine is.   Except when he travels .... then the difference between my normal American lifestyle and his billionaire lifestyle reaches late Roman Empire decadence levels.  No crowds, no gloved hands invading his loose bits, no nasty drunks next to you with their head on your shoulder, no screaming kids .... just climb up the steps, relax in a soft seat, and in an hour or two you're there.

Yeah, I know, my great-grandpa had to ride a covered wagon for a month to get to where I go in a day on Delta, but the private jet would be my FIRST PURCHASE if my time was still worth anything to me!

Lannis

[Motormike]

Lannis gets it.  Early in his wealth accumulation phase, Warren Buffet always flew first class, and frequently castigated Corporate types that spent stockholder money on private jets.  Shortly after 9/11, Warren relented, mostly to assuage his security and insurance folks, and purchased a corporate jet.  He said he'd name it "The Indefensible."  After a few months, he said he renamed it to "The Indispensable."  Oh yes, and Berkshire Hathaway owns the fractional jet charter company NetJets.