Suspension Tips for Light Weight V7 Rider?

[greer]

I've read the suspension threads but haven't found much from folks who tend toward the lighter side.  I weigh 115 lbs in street clothes and a bit under 125 in riding gear.  My back is telling me to hurry up and get shocks sprung for my weight but what bugs me worse is the front end, it seems to have a quick, jittery bounce no matter the road surface.  It's especially noticeable between 40-50 mph, I can see the reflection of my jittery helmet in the gauges.  It's better since I got new Conti Road Attack 3's, but it's still there.  Over-sprung shocks affecting the front end, too? My bike is a 2016 V7II Stone with 13,000 miles.

Sarah

[Dirk_S]

Has the oil been changed? I’m 150 when fit, so I’m probably a tier heavier, but I imagine some fresh, lighter oil might do you some good.

[malik]

The first thing to do is to change the oil in the front shocks. The experts say the oil starts to go off after 6 months. Do that, and see what difference it makes. After that, you can play with oils of different viscosity, then play with the air gap, then with the spacer, then with the spring - both rate & length. Don't forget that front & rear suspension work together. There's lots of variable, which is why it so often pays to consult a decent expert - they tend to have a better idea of the combinations that will get it set up reasonably. It may be expensive, but likely worth the money. Nevertheless, fresh oil in the front is a cheap and easy first step. And every time you take the forks out, it gets easier & less daunting - in fact, after a few times, you get quite blasé about it.

[greer]

Haven't done a thing, wanted to wait till I heard from you all.  What fork oil weight, do you think?  Thanks so much for the help.

Sarah

[malik]

I'd try the stock 7.5w first, before then trying the 5w then the 10w. Make notes of the differences for later on. Note that the weighting may be different between brands, so best to stick with one brand. Do check your tyre inflation before the test rides.

[kingoffleece]

My .02 worth is to find a qualified specialist and get it right the first time.
As a suggestion, you can remove the forks and send them to Hamlin Cycles in Ct and they will come back perfect for you.
Rear shocks can be built to your specs and are easy to install at home.

Hamlin had done 6 bikes for me now and the difference is extremely satisfying.

[Andy1]

I am 75kg and using 4W oil, 280ml in each leg (Kaifa forks).   Totally changed how the bike runs over sharp bumps.
Andyb

[geoff in almonte]

My $.02?

Get you and your machine to a suspension shop.  Listen to what they have to say.  Take an exploded (parts diagram) view of your forks with you.  Most OEM suspension is built to a price point - i.e. cheap.  Fork oil viscosity, from my research, is dependant on the claims of the provider.  So, while new fork springs and/or emulators, and/or fork oil may appear to be a solution, they ain't.

All this to say that you should do your due diligence - and rely on your research and the opinions of experts rather than the anecdotal referrals you will receive here.

Suspension $$$ is generally money well spent.

G

[greer]

I hear you Jim and Geoff, but I just can't give the job over until I try to sort it out myself. 

I rinsed the forks with kerosene and have them draining at the moment.  Mercy, that was super stinky fork oil, does the factory fill smell like rotting fish?  That's the nearest I can describe it.

I'll have to send off for 7.5 wt fork oil, I called around and there's none to be found locally.  I have here at the house Honda 5 wt and ATF.  Tomorrow I'll check to see if I can pick up the same brand of 5 and 10 wt and mix it to make 7.5.

Sarah

[kingoffleece]

I get it.  Amazing how quick fork oil goes south.  Quite a few shop owners tell me that along with brake fluid flush it's probably the most neglected area on a bike.  Neglected forks are just a crappy ride-neglect the brakes and lots of bad stuff can happen-and rebuilds are $$$.

[Tkelly]

Stock v7 suspensions are junk.We replaced front and rears.

[jpv7]

I hear you Jim and Geoff, but I just can't give the job over until I try to sort it out myself. 

I rinsed the forks with kerosene and have them draining at the moment.  Mercy, that was super stinky fork oil, does the factory fill smell like rotting fish?  That's the nearest I can describe it.

I'll have to send off for 7.5 wt fork oil, I called around and there's none to be found locally.  I have here at the house Honda 5 wt and ATF.  Tomorrow I'll check to see if I can pick up the same brand of 5 and 10 wt and mix it to make 7.5.

Sarah

My V7ii Kaifa forks got Racetech springs, emulators and oil tuned to my weight.  WOW is all i can say...don't even think about it, just do it.

[malik]

That terrible smell is an indication the your oil is past its use-by date. Likely smelled fine when it went in fresh. I think ATF is about 30w. The fresh oil will give you a base line.

[SED]

It sounds totally over sprung for you - no give in the suspension. 

Run a zip tie around the fork stanchion and sit on it with feet on the pegs and hands on the bars and leaning like your riding.  Get off and see how much the zip tie has slid up the stanchion.  I'd bet nothing.  Not even compressing enough to let the damping work. 

Apologies if you know all this stuff already...

You can double check the stiffness of the front end by walking the bike forward and grabbing the front brake and seeing how much it dives.

One thing to check is to make sure the fork legs are not bound up.  Loosen the front axle pinch bolt and then try the brake dive test a couple more times just to make sure the fork legs are parallel.

This is the way to set spring rate on a mtn bike with adjustable air springs - and I think it applies here.  The rule of thumb (for mountain bikes) is you want 25-30% sag just sitting on it.  The suspension will bottom on the occasional big hit - but it's got a rubber bump stop.  This way the fork sinks into its travel and the damping slows the rebound.  Rebound damping is what makes it feel planted (but the suspension has to give first). 

(We really lowered the spring rate for my wife's mountain bike and eliminated the compression damping because she just wasn't driving the bars into the front wheel as much as a taller heavier rider would.)

If there is any compression preloading the springs when assembling the forks you can probably cut the springs to eliminate it - this might give you some sag.  Better option would be lighter spring weight.   

Hope this helps!

[80CX100]

     Ever the cheap guzzisti, if you're on the lighter side looking for a softer more responsive action and the manual calls for 7.5, but you have 5 wt in hand,,, I'd throw the 5 wt you have in and try it,,, you can always add heavier later.

     Tire pressures were mentioned but not expanded on,,, I tend to run slightly lower tire pressures than most for a better feel; On my heavier bikes I try to keep the ft tire at 34 lbs, but that pressure on my lighter bikes makes the front end feel very stiff and unresponsive, the experts may disagree but I find on my lighter bikes if I run the ft tire lower at 28 lbs it really improves the feeling of the front end.

    fwiw ymmv, good luck

    Kelly

[greer]

Thanks folks, I woke up extra early thinking about these stupid forks.  I'll put the 5 wt in there and see how it goes.  Might not be able to get to it today, but I will report back when I do.  Tire pressures are 32 F and 34 R.  From the pressure against the fork caps, there's some preload on the springs but not much.  I could use PVC pipe as a spacer and eliminate it entirely, I suppose.  I'll put it back together stock and have Doug help me check sag first.  Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts, hope you'll continue to chime in.   Thanks again.

Sarah

[Perazzimx14]

Stock v7 suspensions are junk.We replaced front and rears.

They are not necessarily junk just very antiquated and limited in ability. 

The OP need to look at some sort of valving for the front end matched with proper weight oil and springs. Id suggest Ricor Intiminators as they eliminate a fair amount of front end dive upon braking are easy to install and do a decent job all around. Just be aware you will never make damper rods forks as good as any modern USD cartridge fork.

The rear shocks there are options from mild to wild its just depends on how deep your pockets are. You can get off the shelf stuff or have have custom built.

[greer]

We had good luck with Intiminators in our DR650's.  Did I read somewhere the Intiminators for Triumph Bonneville are appropriate for the V7 bikes?  No mention of Moto Guzzi on the Ricor site.  Thanks! 

Sarah

[geoff in almonte]

Hi Sarah

Race Tech have a spring rate calculator on their website.  I provided your parameters; make/model/year of motorcycle, rider weight (geared up), skill level - intermediate, and street as your type of riding.

Their recommendation is a spring rate of .76kg.  The OEM springs are .84.  The forks are waaaaay over sprung.  I would be willing to bet that the rear shocks are the same.

Do some research.  There are lots of articles dealing with motorcycle suspension.  Find out about your forks - are they adjustable for rebound, compression, preload?  what damping components are inside the fork legs - prolly a compression rod/spring on one side and a rebound cartridge/spring on the other (cheap!).

This can be a spendy wormhole so a little knowledge of the subject matter is important.  Fork springs will run you a couple hundred dollars - an emulator about the same.  Emulators are adjustable, but need to be removed from the fork to be adjusted.  Aftermarket cartridges and springs  will cost around $1000.  There are several manufacturers - Ohlins, Matris, Bitubo, etc..

What's in your wallet?

Cheers!

G

[greer]

Thank you, Geoff.  These are basic damper rod forks with no adjustments.  Other folks mentioned springs right off, thanks again for the verification.

Sarah

[kingoffleece]

Even when everything is PERFECT damper rod(s) and a huge compromise.  When everything is correct they will only work well under a very specific and limited set of conditions0somethin g that varies all day like a ride is not conducive to success.  Gold valves are a nice inexpensive solution but at your weight you'll need springs, too, for them to work proper.
good luck

[greer]

Back together with 300 cc of Honda 5 wt fork oil in each leg along with the factory spacers.  That might be just a little better, the jitter is still there but may have been slightly less frantic.  I'll quit for now and start shopping for springs.  Thanks so much for the input everybody, I'll keep you posted.

Sarah   

[Tom H]

I think you said you have spacers on top of your springs. If so, I would try making a shorter spacer out of PVC or the like before spending on springs. Also, if there is supposed to be a specific air gap, maybe check that as well. I still need to learn how to check the air gap, my HD has a spec for it.

If you decide to go with shocks at some point, look at the Ikon brand. Reasonably priced for the standard (about $200) or the rebound adjustable version (about $300-350). You can also easily get lighter or heavier springs, I think even order them from some places with your spring of choice.

Good luck,
Tom

[Rich A]

Thinking outside the box: fried chicken, pizza, beer, donuts.

Rich A

[greer]

Working on it Rich, had pizza and beer for supper!

Thank you Tom, I was planning to try spacers yesterday afternoon but all the PVC we had on hand was either too big or too small in diameter.  It looks like spacers cut 1 inch shorter than factory will eliminate the preload and just sit snug against the cap. 

Per the Race Tech website my recommended spring is not available and I'll need to give them a call, I'll try to do that tomorrow and see what they can tell me. 

Sarah 

[s1120]

PVC is cheap. I would definitely try making some slightly shorter spaces and give it a shot. Really you only have about a half hour, and 3 bucks to lose. May help.. may not.. but your really not out much. I realy think getting it sprung better, and letting the suspension work as it should should be the first step. After the components start working..  then figure out if you really need or want to spend the money to go more into it. Ya, they are old tech.. but a lot of people have been vary happy with old tech for a lot if years. As for rear... I dont really know how good or bad the stock shocks are on a V7, or if you can even change the springs..  The Ikon shocks seem to be a pretty good middle of the road replacement, and probably a good starting point for your project. Also If you brought it up, I missed it. Not sure of your height, but unless you have to I would try not to lower the bike any. The less travel you have the worse its going to ride on real roads.

[mechanicsavant]

Just my $.02 . My “issues w/stock suspension is at the other extreme @100Kg. Rider weight w/5 Kg. Of stuff onboard . You made what to many is the first step w/Conti Ra3 tires . I’m in total agreement on that . My next step was setting sag F&R . As for dampening , i played w/fork oil weights & levels . A small difference was noted by my butt Dyno , but not enough for me . I settled on Icon rear shocks (i asked for heavier springs )  they made a nice cushy ride solo that i could dial up to accommodate my camping gear on rally adventures . At the front I ended up w/Race-tech’s adjustable cartridge emulators. P/n FEGV S3802 . A bit fiddley to install & adjust but a huge improvement. Drilling out the damper rods was failed easy just after de-burring holes ( i used a Dremel tool to de-burr ) & a magnet to get all stray metal chips out . The instructions are quite good & tech support is good . It took twice to get cartridges adjusted dang near prefect for me. Readjustment is straight forward & with a center stand takes me about 45 min. To adjust both tubes , no need to drain oil , just remove fork cap , pull out spacer & spring fish out cartridge ( I used a telescopic magnet from harbor freight) Quick Adj. & reassemble. Another thing I’ve seem mentioned here but have yet to play with is bringing the fork tubes up in the triple trees any where between 10-13mm. Fingers tired MS out

[twowheeladdict]

I have changed the suspension on many of the bikes I have owned.

First step is to determine your static sag which will tell you if you need lighter springs.

If you determine that the springs are fine for your weight then focus on rebound and compression damping.

Changing oil can only do so much to improve comfort at the sacrifice of stability.

If you are just a putt around rider minimal change might be good enough.

I go with proper springs and Gold Valve Emulators as a minimum.  Shocks sprung for my weight with rebound adjustment is minimum for the rear.

[malik]

300ml in each leg sounds like a lot. My V7 Special sport the Kaifa forks (there's a "K" embossed on the inside of the leg) which specify a 120mm air gap, which corresponds to close to 200ml. I had the impression that those on the II were the same, but maybe not. Setting the sag(s) is important. You may well need lighter springs at least, but by taking it slow, steady, & bit by bit, you end up educating yourself in this often neglected realm. Operating from a better knowledge base can't hurt. And it's all good, clean fun.

[greer]

Yes, these are Kaifa forks, and somehow I thought they called for 400ml, but now that I think of it I think I had this bike crossed up with the Nevada, dang.  I didn't pull the gaiters off to collapse the fork completely in order to measure the air gap, so I just backed off what I thought they called for, dang me again.

But I think I'm giving up on the factory components anyway, as several of you have suggested.  Doug helped me do some measuring yesterday and I might as well be a piss ant sitting on the bike, I have virtually no sag whatsoever front or rear, just as some of you suspected.  I feel like an idiot for not recognizing that on day one, but I'll chalk it up to being neck deep in all the various things involved in sorting a new-to-me used bike.

Anyhow, I'll try to call Race Tech today and talk about springs, at the very least.  I already jumped in and ordered a set of Shock Factory 2WIN shocks thru Winding Roads in the UK.  The Shock Factory offering was considered by many to be the best shock for the money back when I owned a Ducati Scrambler, but Shock Factory didn't sell to the US.  Now that they can be shipped here I decided to give them a whirl.  I'd used Winding Roads for Scrambler accessories back in the day, and they responded immediately when I emailed some questions about the shocks.

Thank you all again for your tireless help, I will keep you posted as we go along.

Sarah