Disc Eldo Hydraulic Clutch and Smaller M/C

[smdl]

Hi, folks. 

For a number of years, I have been considering converting to a hydraulic clutch and smaller brake master cylinder for a few reasons.  I'm at the point of making that change over the winter, so I thought I would tap into the collective wisdom of the group, and document the work for the benefit of those who might want to do similar.  I have done quite a bit of searching on the subject, and found some good information, but the primary reason I am looking at making the change seems to be different from others, and I haven't yet seen a thread that seems to capture all the details.  So, let's start with the reasons:

• The most important reason (for me) is to reduce the reach to the levers.  I don't have overly long fingers, and find that there is a lot of distance to cover before I can get a good grip on the stock levers to make the pull.  I'd prefer to find master cylinders that have dogleg levers, at minimum, and adjustable lever reach would be ideal.  I'll just mention that maintaining a classic look is also important to me, though.
• Clutch engagement on my bike is quite abrupt (even with Mark's remanufactured plates), and my hope is that I can find the right hydraulic ratio that will make this a bit more progressive.
• Although I have added a second disc, and this makes for a better match with the stock 15mm master cylinder, I still find it a bit wooden, and higher in effort than I think it needs to be (especially with the long reach).  I think that a 13mm master would likely be perfect, as suggested by Greg Field and others, and a 14mm would likely be fine, too.
• Although not a big issue for me yet, I am starting to experience a bit of arthritis in my left hand, and reduced effort overall would likely be helpful as the years progress.  This is the reason that most people seem to mention when they are looking at converting to hydraulic clutch.

So, looking at the options available (Magura/Radical/MG Cycle), I think I'm likely to go down the path of the hydraulic slave cylinder offered by MG Cycle:





https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2554

I've heard of only one instance where the bike owner was not satisfied with how this unit worked, and everyone else seemed pretty happy with it.  I also think that the price seems reasonable, and I like that it doesn't seem to require any modification to the bike (other than adding a master cylinder, of course).  That said, I haven't seen one actually installed on a bike, so it would be great to have a picture of how what that looks like.  I had thought that it would just mount with nuts where the clutch cable normally attaches, and I was sure that past photos I had seen showed the slave to be threaded for this purpose, but the current photos on MG's site don't show that.  Can anyone confirm how it mounts?

Secondly, I'm ideally looking for master cylinders that look as classic as possible, as I want to change the appearance of the bike to the smallest degree possible.  Naturally, that would mean avoiding separate master cylinder reservoirs (especially plastic ones), and I would prefer them not to be black.  Built-in, round reservoirs would be spectacular, but I haven't seen any like that yet.  Have any of you?

For those who haven't seen them before, here is an image of the 15mm disc Eldo/850-T master cylinder (before restoration):





Assuming that I'm unlikely to find the perfect solution (both clutch and brake with round, natural aluminum, integrated reservoirs, dogleg levers, etc.), and if I'm willing to go with 14mm instead of 13mm, this is the closest I have seen from an appearance perspective:





https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-8-22mm-Motorcycle-Front-Brake-Clutch-Master-Cylinder-Hydraulic-Pump-Lever/183759452528?hash=item2ac8eab970:g:9oMAAOSwRSddPoja

Aside from that, I can easily go with a modern Brembo units, like these:





https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=383&products_id=3031
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=110_112&products_id=1942

Does anyone know of anything closer to what I am looking for?  Perhaps there is a factory setup for a bike that was sold with 13mm masters, and at least might have natural-finish levers?  Possibly even adjustable?  I'm not sure how to track down what bikes came with M/Cs in a particular size.

Any insight would be more than welcome!

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

One other option at 14mm





https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-8inch-14mm-Motorcycle-Brake-Clutch-Lever-Master-Cylinder-NEW-FREE-SHIPPING/283370035926?hash=item41fa2b9ad6:g:92kAAOSwpZpcXJyO

By the way, I have changed away from the standard 'pillbox' style handlebar controls, so should be okay with the positioning on the bar.  Will measure before ordering, of course.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Rich A]

I put a hydraulic slave (MG Cycle) on my Jackal sidecar rig. Very happy with it. I used a banjo with a bleeder valve to make bleeding easier, and it really was a snap. Had to make a hydraulic line, and used a Magnum BYO DOT kit for that. I think I used a 0/180 deg fitting for the slave cylinder and a 35 deg fitting for the MC.

Rich A

[smdl]

I put a hydraulic slave (MG Cycle) on my Jackal sidecar rig. Very happy with it. I used a banjo with a bleeder valve to make bleeding easier, and it really was a snap. Had to make a hydraulic line, and used a Magnum BYO DOT kit for that. I think I used a 0/180 deg fitting for the slave cylinder and a 35 deg fitting for the MC.

Rich A

Thanks, Rich.  Glad to hear that you're happy with it.

What master cylinder did you end up using?  Also, how exactly does the slave cylinder mount to the bike?

Cheers,
Shaun

[jhem68]

Well, there is a lot to unpack in what you are looking to achieve here so let me tell you what I have installed on twq different units and my early impressions.

First, an 850T with identical set up as Rich A. Not quite a thousand miles on it but it seems to work ok. Much easier clutch pull good engagement and some adjustability at the clutch arm at the slave cylinder.

[jhem68]

Well, there is a lot to unpack in what you are looking to achieve here so let me tell you what I have installed on two different units and my early impressions.

First, an 850T with identical set up as Rich A. Not quite a thousand miles on it but it seemed to work ok. Much easier clutch pull good engagement and some adjustability at the clutch arm at the slave cylinder.



I have since changed to a Nissin Axial Clutch master cylinder 14mm which has a slightly harder pull but more throw at the slave and an adjustable dogleg lever.


This has a small remote reservoir which is not what you want. If you were okay with this set up you can get a matching  brake set up. Adjustable lever, and mirror mount Easy to find on ebay.

On my SP I used the 13mm Brembo master cylinder and MG slave, Magnum BYO lines. Same as Rich A. But on this I had also set up the clutch with MG Cycles wrist relief springs. The lightest clutch pull set up so far to date. No Lever adjustablity but also no remote reserve if that is your preference.


and



My problem is with arthritis in my hands and wrist and I have been seeking a light clutch pull so I can continue riding my older Guzzis.

Hope this helps you with your decisions on options.


John

[smdl]

Hi, John.

This is very helpful, and I really appreciate it.  Hoping you don't mind if I ask a few questions?

First of all, is there anything that actually attaches the slave cylinder to the gearbox, or does it just sit inside the cable guide and is retained by tension from the clutch arm?

Secondly, I'm wondering what prompted you to change from the initial master to the Nissin 14mm adjustable master on your 850-T?  Was it just to gain the shorter reach and lever adjustability, or were you feeling that you needed more throw at the slave?  Either way, it sounds like clutch effort was reduced significantly.

Finally, how do you find the reach to the lever on the non-adjustable Brembo master cylinder compared to the stock master and lever on the 850-T?  I realize that the Brembo is on your SP, not the T, but I don't have any experience with an SP so in hoping you can compare the stock T (which is the same as my Eldo) to the Brembo on the SP.   My hope is that the Brembo, while not adjustable, had a shorter reach to the lever than the stock Eldo/850-T master.

Hope all that makes sense, and thanks again for the great information!

Cheers,
Shaun

[harrytief]

Hey Shaun
Great to hear from you. Your issues with hand controls and arthritis are are similar to mine and what i did works well for me on my ambo. I've posted up pics of my mods in the classifieds for that bike but I'll repost them here if you need them. Basically, I used a 13mm rectangular generic brake master cylinder that MG Cycle sells. I replaced the black dogleg lever that comes with that master cylinder with a chrome (for looks only) adjustable lever for a centauro (and others) that MG Cycle also sells. The hydraulic line set is custom. The clutch side controls are still cable though I replaced the stock lever with a matching (to the brake side) adjustable lever. There seems to be a mechanical advantage to the specs of the adjustable levers as well as their adjustability that helped enough to satisfy me. The 13mm brembo is the size for a single front rotor tho' you know I can never get enough brakes for downtown Toronto traffic. BTW, if you do try the adjudtable clutch lever. you will have to file down one flat of the clutch cable brass lever end to let it fully fit into its pivot hole in the lever, The pivot hole is not deep enough.
Stay safe
Harry

[smdl]

Hey Shaun
Great to hear from you. Your issues with hand controls and arthritis are are similar to mine and what i did works well for me on my ambo. I've posted up pics of my mods in the classifieds for that bike but I'll repost them here if you need them. Basically, I used a 13mm rectangular generic brake master cylinder that MG Cycle sells. I replaced the black dogleg lever that comes with that master cylinder with a chrome (for looks only) adjustable lever for a centauro (and others) that MG Cycle also sells. The hydraulic line set is custom. The clutch side controls are still cable though I replaced the stock lever with a matching (to the brake side) adjustable lever. There seems to be a mechanical advantage to the specs of the adjustable levers as well as their adjustability that helped enough to satisfy me. The 13mm brembo is the size for a single front rotor tho' you know I can never get enough brakes for downtown Toronto traffic. BTW, if you do try the adjudtable clutch lever. you will have to file down one flat of the clutch cable brass lever end to let it fully fit into its pivot hole in the lever, The pivot hole is not deep enough.
Stay safe
Harry

Hi, Harry.  Great to hear from you, too, and thanks very much for the info!

One question-- where did you find the adjustable clutch lever that you put on?

Cheers,
Shaun

[jhem68]

Shaun,
To answer your questions in order:

1)You are correct in assuming the slave does sit inside the cable guide and is retained by the tension from the spring on the clutch arm. Keep in mind that this unit tends to be "self adjusting". The only question I have pertains to whether or not this setup adjusts to zero clearance at the clutch outer body or is it causing the clutch outer body to put pressure on the throwout bearing? Thoughts from Rich A's experience in this area would be valuable.

2) I made this change because I was testing the difference that the wrist relief springs  made by testing them with the cable set up first, then I took my hydraulic set up off the T and installed it on the SP. I found this to be very acceptable (actually the best) in ease of effort.  Reinstalled the clutch cable and lever perch from the SP onto the T and found that to be higher effort than I wanted, although a friend who owns a stock 850T set up took it to the Wisconsin Moto Guzzi Riders September meeting and had no complaints with it.
So, I ordered my second slave cylinder from MG Cycle and decided to try the Nissin 14mm Clutch set up. I like the adjustable lever but do not like the additional effort required. I did have that nonadjustable Brembo on the T originally and had no objection about the reach to it. Definitely better reach to it than stock. And in your situation you could match that with a similar brake master cylinder to keep a symmetrical appearance. Just add mirror mounts to the brembo MC's and you will have lots of options to suit your tastes. 3) Which hopefully answers your third question.

As for the Eldorado that I'm  currently setting up, I'm going to install a RAM clutch set up to see how that compares in effort to these two early Tonti 's. I have the same original Brembo round master cylinder that you show in your pic with dual disc set up and yes it fells "wooden" but it stops hard enough that I feel that is all the stock Eldo front end can handle with adequate composure so I intend to leave that alone.

Hope this helps.............. .........John

[smdl]

Thanks, John.  Yes, it helps a great deal!

With regard to the composure of the Eldo front end, I have upgraded with Wirth springs and FAC dampers, so it really works quite well.  The current dual-disc setup stops pretty well, but I'm looking forward to a lighter and more progressive feel.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Rich A]

"The only question I have pertains to whether or not this setup adjusts to zero clearance at the clutch outer body or is it causing the clutch outer body to put pressure on the throwout bearing?"

There is some adjustability in the slaveunit--there's a nylock nut on the end of the shaft (see smdl post above) that positions the barrel of the arm on the slave unit relative to the clutch control lever. There shouldn't be any pressure on the TO bearing if properly adjusted.

Rich A

[smdl]

"The only question I have pertains to whether or not this setup adjusts to zero clearance at the clutch outer body or is it causing the clutch outer body to put pressure on the throwout bearing?"

There is some adjustability in the slaveunit--there's a nylock nut on the end of the shaft (see smdl post above) that positions the barrel of the arm on the slave unit relative to the clutch control lever. There shouldn't be any pressure on the TO bearing if properly adjusted.

Rich A

Good to know.  Thanks, Rich.

I just found one other tidbit that should probably be included for future reference.  MG Cycle offers a dog leg lever in natural aluminum that fits the round Brembo masters (including the stock one from the Eldo, 850-T, etc.):




upload


https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=381&products_id=5017

This would likely solve the most important issue to me, which is reach to the stock levers, and would allow me to keep the master cylinder original (or go with the 13mm round Brembo).  Perfect, right?  Unfortunately, they don't seem to have a matching dogleg lever for the original clutch perch on the Eldo, only the brake side.  Does anyone know if one is available elsewhere? 

I'll probably plan to give Rick and Gordon a call tomorrow to see what else they might know.

The research continues...

Cheers,
Shaun

[harrytief]

Shaun
The adjustable clutch lever came from MG Cycle and is their part #30605701 and requires either mount #30605500 (without mirror mount) or 30605560
(with mirror mount). Buying the necessary mount gets you a spare non adjustable lever. Good luck on this project.
Harry

[harrytief]

Shaun
The brake master cylinder I used on my loop is a 12mm cylinder from MG Cycle part #28660278 with adjustable brake lever part #30605600 to replace the non adjustable lever included with the brake master cylinder. I misspoke in an earlier post when my aging memory blurted "13mm".
Harry

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Shaun
The brake master cylinder I used on my loop is a 12mm cylinder from MG Cycle part #28660278 with adjustable brake lever part #30605600 to replace the non adjustable lever included with the brake master cylinder. I misspoke in an earlier post when my aging memory blurted "13mm".
Harry

12 and 13 are interchangeable when talking about that era of Guzzi master cylinder. Some folks call it a 12 and others 13. Actual piston diameter is 12.84 mm, so it's easy to see why.

[smdl]

Thanks, Harry and Charlie!

Shaun

[Don G]

I purchased an 850T that has a hydraulic clutch set up on it, I did not have a look into it yet. The long and short of it is I would rather have a cable operated clutch for simplicity, maybe we could work something out. Send me a PM if you want to discuss.  DonG

[smdl]

I purchased an 850T that has a hydraulic clutch set up on it, I did not have a look into it yet. The long and short of it is I would rather have a cable operated clutch for simplicity, maybe we could work something out. Send me a PM if you want to discuss.  DonG

Thanks, Don.  I'd be interested in learning more about it.  Will send a PM.

Cheers,
Shaun