Linked Brakes: Good, bad? What about trail braking?

[JC85]

So I got my CalVin in October, and the linked braking has taken me a while to get used to. I'm still not sure that I like it. What are you guys' opinions and experiences with it? And what about trail braking? It's a technique that I employ often when riding twisties, and I dont see any way that it would work with a linked system.

[Dilliw]

So I got my CalVin in October, and the linked braking has taken me a while to get used to. I'm still not sure that I like it. What are you guys' opinions and experiences with it? And what about trail braking? It's a technique that I employ often when riding twisties, and I dont see any way that it would work with a linked system.

Once you learn to trail brake with your foot you will realize what a massive "cheat" the Guzzi system is.  Especially going downhill you just leave your foot on the nub; the bike will squat evenly under pressure without any upset.  It does make going back to trail braking with your hand difficult.

[Guzzistajohn]

I like 'em just like they are. But I have 3 with linked brakes, and I'm not changing them. 

[LowRyter]

So far as trail braking, you can still use the lever for the (right) front brake, so trail braking is unaffected. 

It's the foot brake that activates the rear and (left) front brake together.  I find the foot brake works seamlessly and keeps the bike level. 

[redrider90]

So far as trail braking, you can still use the lever for the (right) front brake, so trail braking is unaffected. 

It's the foot brake that activates the rear and (left) front brake together.  I find the foot brake works seamlessly and keeps the bike level.

  Exactly how I feel about linked brakes. I love linked brakes. They were way ahead of their time before ABS became available  on bikes.

[kballowe]

I need a different rear brake pedal on my '98 EV.  It needs to be farther forward or something.  Weird position with floorboards.

Are the CalVins like that ?

[LowRyter]

I need a different rear brake pedal on my '98 EV.  It needs to be farther forward or something.  Weird position with floorboards.

Are the CalVins like that ?

Do you have right side only foot peg?

[kballowe]

Do you have right side only foot peg?

No, both floorboards.  What is this custom setup that you speak of ???   

[Guzzistajohn]

I run twisties in 3rd WFO on my CAL VIN and brake very little. Mine seems to slow down when you let off the yee-haw handle 

[Perazzimx14]

After you ride linked brakes for a while and then hope on a bike with non-linked brakes you'll be pushing on the foot pedal and wondering why you are not stopping as fast as you should. For everyday riding/commuting/grocery getting I like linked brakes but they can make you lazy. They are especially great coupled with a convert. The ultimate in laziness.

[LowRyter]

No, both floorboards.  What is this custom setup that you speak of ???   

I think someone must've cut off the "nub" on the foot control.  You should have a right side nub to put your foot on when you brake.  I think that was a legacy of police duty bikes.  The nub on the right side keeps both feet level when your left foot is on heel/toe shifter.  Also the nub give good leverage to help turn the bike.

Some folks don't like the nub and cut it off. 

[kballowe]

I think someone must've cut off the "nub" on the foot control.  You should have a right side nub to put your foot on when you brake.  I think that was a legacy of police duty bikes.  The nub on the right side keeps both feet level when your left foot is on heel/toe shifter.  Also the nub give good leverage to help turn the bike.

Some folks don't like the nub and cut it off.

It appears that I have been the victim of a nub-ectomy.

[80CX100]

     I love the linked brakes in wet weather or coming into a blind turn a little faster than I'd like, I find them very effective with little or no drama.

     Going downhill some times with poor traction ie gravel roads or driveways, I wish I had a rear brake only to drag, but knock on wood, so far the front wheel has never grabbed and gotten me into trouble.

     Re that little right footpeg nub to rest your heel on, it does help a lot to get better angle on the right brake pedal.

     fwiw ymmv

     

[Guzzistajohn]

     I love the linked brakes in wet weather or coming into a blind turn a little faster than I'd like, I find them very effective with little or no drama.

     Going downhill some times with poor traction ie gravel roads or driveways, I wish I had a rear brake only to drag, but knock on wood, so far the front wheel has never grabbed and gotten me into trouble.

     Re that little right footpeg nub to rest your heel on, it does help a lot to get better angle on the right brake pedal.

     fwiw ymmv



   

Going downhill some times with poor traction ie gravel roads or driveways
That's really the only problem I have with linked brakes. But if my line is chosen wisely, it's not a been a problem for me.

[bigbikerrick]

The way Guzzi does the linked brakes is okay, very similar to how Honda did it on my Gold wing 1500. That being said, the way Honda did it on my ST 1300 is brilliant! The ST has a secondary master cylinder hooked up to the left front caliper, that pressurizes the rear brake wether you use the foot pedal, or the front brake lever by itself.  You can 2 finger brake using the hand lever only,and it brakes the bike evenly and effectively. No electronics are involved. To me the problem with the Guzzi system is if you use only the front brake, you get fairly weak braking, since only the right caliper is actuated,making  foot pedal use  necessary. Sometimes in an emergency situation, it seems you just have time to grab the front brake lever, it takes longer to use your foot.
Rick.

[JC85]

Apparently, I've been taught wrong all my life. To my knowledge, trail braking specifically refers to utilizing the rear brake to assist in a tight curve. But several of you are talking about front or both brake trail braking? Color me confused.

[Guzzistajohn]

Well, REVZILLA says you can use either OR both https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/what-is-trail-braking#:~:text=Trail%20braking%20is%20a%20method,and%20before%20beginning%20the%20turn.

[JC85]

Well, REVZILLA says you can use either OR both https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/what-is-trail-braking#:~:text=Trail%20braking%20is%20a%20method,and%20before%20beginning%20the%20turn.

Interesting, thanks!

[oldbike54]

Apparently, I've been taught wrong all my life. To my knowledge, trail braking specifically refers to utilizing the rear brake to assist in a tight curve. But several of you are talking about front or both brake trail braking? Color me confused.

 You are correct , using rear brake trail braking will tighten the turning radius slightly . However , it has to do with keeping the front suspension slightly compressed as much as anything . It is really noticeable on long travel suspension motorbikes , on a Calvin the effect is minimal . Seriously , with shaft driven motorbikes lacking any form of torque arm , going in a little slow then opening the throttle will be more effective since the pinion gear wants to climb the ring gear under power causing the back end of the bike to rise slightly .

 I still use a little trail braking on occasion just to retain the skill , but at speeds above 25 MPH the effect is not noticeable . The fewest number of inputs results in the smoothest cornering , focus more on your line and throttle control .

Dusty

[Dave Swanson]

Like others I trail brake at times when the pace spools up a bit, and do so primarily with the front, very seldom with the rear. 

[LowRyter]

Apparently, I've been taught wrong all my life. To my knowledge, trail braking specifically refers to utilizing the rear brake to assist in a tight curve. But several of you are talking about front or both brake trail braking? Color me confused.

Typically use the front brake.  The idea is to do most of the stopping in a straight line, then as you ease off the front brake continue to drag it to the apex, feeling some pressure loading the front suspension, then smoothly ease off the brake and transfer on the power exiting the apex. 

I find the best way to practice is to go around 90 degree corners such as typical right turn intersection, don't downshift, stay in a higher gear (like 3rd) where you get no compression braking.  Then practice the technique.  You'll have to brake since the engine won't help you slow down.

This is the best video. 

https://youtu.be/gPE67XqGsV4

This does not mean stabbing the brake when you get into a corner too fast.  It's more of a method to ride smoothly and stay in control.  I agree with Dusty that it's more practical at slower speeds.  There just not many highways that require lots of braking which requires more rhythm with the throttle.

Unlike Dusty, I've never felt any rear suspension movement throttling my Guzzis in a corner.  I've not had experience riding older Beemers where I've heard it's more pronounced.   

[Stevex]

Not a fan of linked brakes, that's why I de linked mine.
I much prefer conventional braking; It's a very personal subject and one only you can make a decision on. Actually surprised you asked the question.
Look how many answers you've got from riders who like linked brakes.
I've got braided hose, stainless discs and carbon ceramic pads and the front brakes on my 40 year old LM2 are as good as those on my '06 Aprilia and '09 Honda.

[wavedog]

Linked brakes? Overall- not a fan. I see the advantages, and for me the disadvantage outweigh the pros. For tight turning I like to drag the rear brake, but the front brake gets activated and the front end wants to fold up. On dirt and gravel ferget it. I used to ride my Jackal on dirt roads and the sandy roads in Florida and started riding some trails through the jungle. No front brake activation wanted. My 89 Cal 3 with its linked brakes, maybe they are not adjusted correctly but they are definitely not good for anything loose or slippery. I can't ride it as fast thru the curves as my Jackal-not that I was ever fast- but independent braking seems to give me more control. Yesterday I took the old Guzzilla (my Cal 3) out for a 50 miler and the roads were dry, the pace relaxed and the braking was fine and easy, so like I said I do see the advantages, until I try to make a tight turn at the gas station, but seriously thinking of de-linking.  Maybe they are not adjusted correctly? Need more riding time with them? I don't know.

[wirespokes]

It's easier making a decision about linked brakes when you understand why they were implemented: it forced riders in the 60s to use front brakes. Back then, riders had a fear of the front sliding out, so avoided using the front brake.

Anything automatic isn't the best choice in all situations. Because of that, I'd rather have control of my brakes and the choice to use rear only.

I too sometimes want just a little rear in a turn - not often, but it's usually when I want to slow down just a little and don't feel good applying front brakes. On gravel or my downhill turning driveway - sometimes covered in leaves, I'd prefer no front brake.

The guys that love linked brakes, aren't experiencing anything I can't just with good control of the levers. In fact, I think my brakes work better than before delinking them. 

If you decide to un link the brakes, it's pretty simple - much simpler than you'd think. The brake line from the rear splitter can be removed and a block-off plug inserted. In front all you need is a line that will run from the left caliper to the master - or to a splitter if your system goes that way. A dual banjo bolt will tie up both lines to the master.

Don't change the front master cylinder thinking it'll be too small. It's actually too large and will be perfect for two calipers. The rear master is a bit too large but will work just as it is. Finding a smaller rear can be extremely difficult - not as scarce as rocking horse poop, but almost.

My 87 LeMans came to me with the brakes de-linked. I delinked the 84 LM3 and am super happy with the brakes. And I've also delinked the 85 LM 1000 project that's being made over into a 1000S.

[Dukedesmo]

Not a fan of linked brakes, I tried them when I got the LM2 but couldn't get over the front lever giving such weak braking with just one disc - if it worked with both fronts from the lever and a linked one front/rear from the pedal then I might have persevered?


But what benefit of linked brakes can't be replicated by using both simultaneously on a de-linked setup? 

[Stevex]

I'll add here that when I de linked my brakes I changed master cylinders; PS15 up front and PS12 rear.
Mr Spokes is the only owner I read that's kept oem masters, I've never ridden a de linked with these still fitted.

[wirespokes]

My 87 LM1000 had been de-linked by the PO. In one of the boxes of spare parts was the original front master. The brakes worked well as they were, but for the hell of it I tried the original which is either a 12 or 13 - something like that. (they're not metric anyway)

Here's the thing about master cylinders: it's a game of leverage vs travel. A large bore pumps a lot of fluid quickly, so the lever doesn't travel very far. A small bore takes more travel to pump the same amount. So here's the thing - the more travel there is, the more leverage at the caliper. So the game is to get the most travel possible in the available space. If the brakes aren't completely void of air, the lever will travel too far, but when the original front master is completely bled it makes for a very strong brake with excellent control. My lever will use up about half the distance to the grip if pulled really hard - but normal braking never requires anywhere near that much.

[twowheeladdict]

I have noticed no difference between bikes with linked brakes and bikes without.  That is because I brake the same regardless.  I always apply front and rear brakes when stopping.  More front brake pressure than rear. 

[redrider90]

My 87 LM1000 had been de-linked by the PO. In one of the boxes of spare parts was the original front master. The brakes worked well as they were, but for the hell of it I tried the original which is either a 12 or 13 - something like that. (they're not metric anyway)

Here's the thing about master cylinders: it's a game of leverage vs travel. A large bore pumps a lot of fluid quickly, so the lever doesn't travel very far. A small bore takes more travel to pump the same amount. So here's the thing - the more travel there is, the more leverage at the caliper. So the game is to get the most travel possible in the available space. If the brakes aren't completely void of air, the lever will travel too far, but when the original front master is completely bled it makes for a very strong brake with excellent control. My lever will use up about half the distance to the grip if pulled really hard - but normal braking never requires anywhere near that much.

I never liked the Mille front right brake from the day I bought it new.  It seemed like a brick to me to get it to stop. I wasn't lacking for gripe as I am 6'5" and not lacking for fingers. I change the front right caliper to a F09 and added SS lines and it went from a brick to a 2-3 finger stopper. Extremely dramatic difference. 

[larrys]

For real world street riding, I am sold on linked brakes. Had them on my SP and my Cal. Only danger I've noted is that it's possible to lock the front wheel if I mash both brakes hard enough.
Larry