Cost of Restoration vs Bike Values

[ozarquebus]

 After estimating initial restoration parts only expenses in bringing the 76 Convert police bike up to roadworthy condition in a 'cost conscious' project, its already looking like a 2300 USD before assessing breather tubes, re-wiring, oil lines, timing chain, mission creep, or considerable repairs like main seals, bad tranny or clutch. It would appear the previous owner should have paid me about $1500 to take it off his hands in order for me to break even.

When the real Guzzi guys made statements like: " buy the best bike you can afford" and " restorations are a labor of love and a money losing proposition" I read the words, but did not comprehend the reality of their truth. I could not pass up what appeared to be bargain bikes.

While I do love Guzzi, I confess my eyes were bigger than my wrench and I do not love the labor part of the love as much as I thought.

Faced with this realization, I am starting to think about maybe selling the Convert and its parts bike as well as the running SPII and simply concentrate on the remaining G5 in the barn until a good running Convert pops up for here for $3500.

Am I wimping out or being real?

[kballowe]

Certainly, restorations are a labor of love.

[huub]

Or just accept it is a old bike, only repair what is strictly necessary,  and ride the thing.
Unless you plan doing 30.000 miles a year, a well worn engine is probably going to outlast you.

[travelingbyguzzi]

A Guzzi on the road is always worth more than a Guzzi in the garage. This is demonstrated by the horrible resale values.
Ride it often and find the value there.
People are always amazed to see someone riding around on a 40 year old motorcycle. You just have to want to.

[Travlr]

Some bikes are worth restoring and some aren't.  A Convert falls in the latter category.

A LeMans 1 on the other hand ..........

Mike

[Dave Swanson]

Peter Egan's has a famous story about the "free" Norton Commando he restored.  The Commando was a gift as long as Peter promised to restore it.  In the end the free Commando cost him $10,500.  He finished it about 6 years ago. 

https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/12/03/1974-norton-850-commando-restoration-photo-gallery-new-life-for-an-old-britbike-peter-egan/

[Dave Swanson]

Some bikes are worth restoring and some aren't.  A Convert falls in the latter category.

A LeMans 1 on the other hand ..........

Mike

I have been buying parts for my Convert over a period of years.  That way I have no idea how much it will cost to restore.     And I don't really care, I just want a nice Convert someday. 

[dxhall]

I was a part owner of a car restoration / vintage racing shop for a number of years.  I remember a customer coming in to us with an old Porsche and asking what it would cost to restore it.  The guy who ran our shop told him, “The best thing you can do with that car is give it away.”  Meaning, of course, that the customer would be better off financially by eating the purchase price and walking away rather than sinking money into a car he would never recover at resale.

Unless you’re talking about a super-high-dollar car or bike, the cost of restoration will always exceed the value of the restored vehicle.

[Solorider73]

Or just accept it is a old bike, only repair what is strictly necessary,  and ride the thing.
Unless you plan doing 30.000 miles a year, a well worn engine is probably going to outlast you.

I think this is the right answer assuming it can be made road worthy at a reasonable price.  I don't have any old Guzzis but did own a 73 CB750 for a few years.  While they can be reliable, the age will require you to work on it occasionally. 

For me I've found old bikes to be better in theory than practice.  I prefer to ride my motorcycles than wrench on them.

[elrealistico]

Unless you’re talking about a super-high-dollar car or bike, the cost of restoration will always exceed the value of the restored vehicle.

Pretty much goes for most anything else---houses, furniture, audio equipment (did that for awhile), guns, etc.  With bikes at least,  you can ride them and get out on the road and pose with your vintage puddin' bowl helmet repro and plate-glass goggles, and get oohs and ahhs from the cognoscenti. Who are usually greybeards like yerself.

[Gliderjohn]

In 1989 I bought my T-3 in stripped police condition. pretty much did a frame up restoration and a few years later new jugs, carbs and some performance enhancements. I did much of the disassembly and reassembly of the bike myself with help. I went into the project knowing it was not worth what I was putting into it but with the goal I was going to keep and run the bike for a long time. So in all in 90s dollars I probably sunk 5-6K in it but 30 years later it still looks and runs great and could probably sell it for 4-5K currently so overall I think I came out pretty darned good. Depends what you want and why.
GliderJohn

[JukeboxGothic]

With bikes at least,  you can ride them and get out on the road and pose with your vintage puddin' bowl helmet repro and plate-glass goggles, and get oohs and ahhs from the cognoscenti. Who are usually greybeards like yerself.

       Also receive a lot of dumb comments like "are you going to make it into a cafe racer?" Get this all the time.

[Ncdan]

I agree with the labor of love aspect. From my experience even if certain bikes that needs complete Restoration are given to you, you are basically getting a blueprint. By the time the bike, or other vehicle as far as that’s concernd, is brought to spec, you’ll have more in it than you will ever hope to get back out of it. That was in my case anyway. However I had to pay for 90% of the work due to my lack of knowledge and ability to complete the task.

[Shorty]

If you pay $3500 for a "nice" Convert, you still run the risk of it blowing out a rear main seal, or trouble with the torque converter, or fluid pump, etc.. Plus the other normal Guzzi mechanicals. Luckily you already own 2 Connies to provide the unique drive shaft and rear drive should you need it. From my somewhat jaded point of view, the most notable long term  Convert fanboys have had their bikes apart innumerable times.    Very nice bike to ride, but you gotta earn it.

[Guzzistajohn]

That SP of yours is a beauty! I like starting out with an old bike that runs and go from there. The 'vert sounds like more than it's worth to me.

[Scout63]

I restore old bikes for four reasons, which combined are sufficient justification for me.  1. I don’t want to ride a bike I don’t completely trust.  2. If I’ve worked on every system I’m more likely to be able to diagnose and fix problems on the road. 3. It is impossible for me to wrench and also worry about work or daily stresses. 4. Older bikes (for me late 60’s - early 80’s singles and twins) look and sound wonderful. I know my labor is worthless on resale and breaking even otherwise is barely possible.  Still worth it.

[80CX100]

     Most motorcycles unless they're desired by collectors are a poor financial  investment.

     Some motorcycles and imho especially MG's, should return your investment with a good solid, well engineered, reliable bike, you can't really put a dollar figure on that.

    We've all read the horror stories of some of the modern bike fiascos that no amount of money was able to solve.

     I had picked up a G5 (paid stupid money for it and then even more stupider money in parts & farkles for it). When I stripped it down I realized it had had a rough life, so when I recently saw a minty looking Convert for sale, I came very close to buying the Convert with the intention of using a lot of the new parts for the G5 on it.

     After a lot of research on that particular bike I realized that Convert wasn't the bike for me. I'll stay with my G5 even though it is a little rough.

     I love the concept of having a G5 and a Convert in the herd with so many common parts between them, they make a lot of sense to share the same garage and parts stash.

     If you've got your heart & mind set on ending up with a Convert, I'd hoard those Converts and G5 you have and never let them go, there are a few parts that are unique and quickly becoming unobtainable.

     fwiw good luck

     Kelly

[wirespokes]

If you want a restored bike, buy one that's been restored. Often they've barely been ridden - they're too nice to risk getting dinged or scratched. And when they sell, they fetch a fraction of what was spent on them.

But I've not had a lot of money and have searched out the cheaper used ones that needed some love. Rather than taking everything apart and replacing everything that's even slightly worn, I'll ride and fix what needs it. In the end I'll have a very good running old bike with some paint touch-up and good condition parts replacing the bad. I've ridden bikes with ripped seats or bashed and rusty mufflers till better came along or I could fix it myself.

Patience is the word - and it's the most economical way to go. In the end you'll have what looks like a well-taken-care-of survivor with a few warts and blemishes.

The thing is - if you get a good quality machine like the Guzzis that can run forever - even though the engine is at half life, it's still got years and years left in it. I haven't had any engine trouble with the four I've had, but each one needed a clutch - all for different reasons. There's always something.

If you can't work on these old bikes yourself it's probably not a good idea restoring or refurbishing one of them - unless you want the experience. If that's the case, you'll be paying for the experience and that's ok too. Just understand that going in.

So I guess it depends what you want - restored? Rider? If you want to be totally certain the bike is dependable, forget it! Even new bikes have problems. Every one of my used bikes took a while to be worthy of my confidence, some quicker than others. So consider that as well. Restorations are nice, but if the money and time is an issue, then get it running well and ride it. You might just find that it's a great bike as is.

[SmithSwede]

. . .  I probably sunk 5-6K in it but 30 years later it still looks and runs great and could probably sell it for 4-5K currently so overall I think I came out pretty darned good. Depends what you want and why.
GliderJohn

Ok John.  Don’t forget I have dibs on your T3 at the $4-5K range. 

[DesmoDog]

A joke I heard years ago was that the best way to figure out what an E type Jag was worth was to take what the last guy paid to restore it and divide by two. Probably not true with E types anymore but the sentiment is still true for most cars.

If old bikes were "worth" restoring, you'd see bike shops selling bikes they restored. But the money isn't made restoring a bike and selling it. The money is made having someone else pay you to restore their bike. The reasons to do it for yourself is because you like the work and would enjoy riding a rebuilt whatever it is you started with. It is rarely a way to get into a bike cheaply.

That said, I did make money on one bike I rebuilt. I bought it right before prices skyrocketed (it was a roundcase Ducati) so when I sold it I made a couple grand. When I bought it I expected to end up with $10k into a bike that was worth about $6k. I bought the bike for $700 and put over $10k into rebuilding it over the next three years, then ended up with a bike that sold for around $13k if I remember right. Sounds great, except that same bike I paid $700 for was worth about $5k by the time I sold the rebuilt one. I would have saved a boatload of time and made more money if I had just let it sit in my garage for the years I spent working on it. But I would have missed out on having a rebuilt roundcase Ducati to ride for a few years.

[SmithSwede]

You really do have to ask yourself what you want and what it’s worth to you.   To you.   Not the “marketplace.”

I’ve never understood the logic about balancing cost of
repair or maintenance versus resale value.    That only makes sense if you are going to forgo the repairs and get a (cheap) replacement.

Some items are not on the market anymore.   Like a Convert.

Some items have huge intangible value.    If you rode that particular bike for the past 25 years, then there is nothing else in the world comparable.  Why not rebuild it?  Is it really better to tell people you ditched your old favorite girl and got a Ninja 250 instead?  And saved money?

If you like the end result, and can afford to restore it, why not?   

It’s only money

[reidy]

The comment regarding that you spend more than the bike is worth is an interesting one.

If you do a full resto and essentially have a new bike, is the bikes value equivalent to what you would pay for a new bike or how much you can sell it for. If you make a few improvements to say suspension or exhaust remember a lot of buyers buy a new bike and spend a few thousand on extras.

If you buy a new bike and keep it for five years how much will you get compared to the depreciation on your restored classic.
Also for a lot of us there are no comparable new bikes on the market. Lets use a 2000 Californian, this is now a twenty year old bike. I can't think of a single new bike that is comparable.

It would be an interesting exercise to pick a bike, lets say 1971 Guzzi and come up with a dollar value to buy and fully restore plus maintenance cost for five years. Then subtract selling cost to have a five year cost of ownership.
Then do the same for a new V7 plus accessories and maintenance, minus resale and see what was the more cost effective option.

Steve

[Dave Swanson]

The comment regarding that you spend more than the bike is worth is an interesting one.

If you do a full resto and essentially have a new bike, is the bikes value equivalent to what you would pay for a new bike or how much you can sell it for. If you make a few improvements to say suspension or exhaust remember a lot of buyers buy a new bike and spend a few thousand on extras.

If you buy a new bike and keep it for five years how much will you get compared to the depreciation on your restored classic.
Also for a lot of us there are no comparable new bikes on the market. Lets use a 2000 Californian, this is now a twenty year old bike. I can't think of a single new bike that is comparable.

It would be an interesting exercise to pick a bike, lets say 1971 Guzzi and come up with a dollar value to buy and fully restore plus maintenance cost for five years. Then subtract selling cost to have a five year cost of ownership.
Then do the same for a new V7 plus accessories and maintenance, minus resale and see what was the more cost effective option.

Steve

 

[s1120]

Wanting to make money on a restoration is really a misguided concept..  Ya some do..  but also some find a bag of money alongside the road.. It CAN happen, but not likely. That being said I do agree with buying the best you can find. At least something that runs, so you at least can tell what it needs. But with such a odd ball model, from a odd ball company.. well the pool is mighty shallow..  Sometimes any one you find, is the best..   

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I wouldnt think of it as whimping out. Wrenching is not for everyone, and even more so restorations. As blown away as I am by the work ppl do to restore their bikes, I just don't have it in me. I don't like wrenching, and every time I get deep in a project, all I can think about is how much better to use my time working on my house or similar.  I have undertaken a restomod on my v65 and although I love the bike, it's annoying to take it on and off the road to piddle with upgrades and changes. I think I've had this bike about 7-8 years and it has been 'done', plated and ridden regularly about 2 seasons total-- Every time I get it 'finished' it comes back to the garage and languishes while I am distracted with other things or waiting on parts for sometimes months.

There are all sorts of things I CAN do to my bikes, but I had to accept that I just don't WANT to. Changing fluids and adjusting valves is about as far as I care to take it. I just find it frustrating and boring. The only reason I even do my own fluid changes and valves is the time and annoyance of loading them up to take them somewhere.

If you want a restored bike, I think your best bet is to buy one. If you value time and money, that will forever be the cheaper route.

If you like the work of restoring a bike.. Then by all means, buy a hunk and get to wrenching. But I wouldn't beat myself up to much for not having that specific interest in spending 3 years working on a bike instead of riding it.

[berniebee]

When the real Guzzi guys made statements like: " buy the best bike you can afford" and " restorations are a labor of love and a money losing proposition" I read the words...

And that goes for any vehicle. You say you don't love working on bikes and yet you have TWO projects plus an unreliable bike?

Sell the Convert, sell the G5. Pay someone to bring the SP up to trustworthy condition and then decide what you really want.

[blackcat]

Wrenching is not for everyone, and even more so restorations.

Nope. My friend Tod owned this LMI for a few years, he purchased it when he was dumping thousands of dollars into a loop frame, and I think he just got tired of restoration costs so we finally made a deal for this pile of parts:



And the only reason I bought the project was because I could do most of the work myself except for the painting and the current values are worth the effort. Plus I always wanted a LMI.



But for some bikes, it’s better to just buy one that is already running down the road.

[Perazzimx14]

It all how you define worth.

While I've never done a N&B restoration I have revived several 70's era Guzzi's to make them good daily riders not touching cosmetics. In the end some were break even monetarily others were not. If I'd factored labor even at $10 an hour they were all losers, but that wasn't why I did what I did. I got entertainment and education out of the revivals so that increased the "worth".

After 3 years of back to back to back then skipping several years and getting another project right now another is not worth it to me. Down the road I'm sure I'll get another bike to keep the bank account in check.

[PeteS]

It really depends on how much of the work you can do yourself. Like Blackcat I do all my own work but can paint as well having been raised in my Dad's body shop. The only work I farm out is cylinder boring and crankshaft grinding if required. Piston rings, seals, gaskets, valves, guides, bearings don't add up to 10K plus some quote here.

Pete

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Hard to argue with those results, BEAUTIFUL