Steering damper

[Arctic Fox]

What is the benefit of motorcycles's steering dampers? My Nevada does not have one, but I assume some bigger Moto Guzzi models have those?
If you have one and you would take it away, how/what would you notice?

Are those used only with much heavier bikes (because of weight?) or more power full bikes (helps if riding really fast?) Or are those just come to common use in few years time (my bike being simply too old?).







 

[john fish]

I have an '00 Jackal and an '03 Stone.  Took it off the Stone and left it on the Jackal and notice no difference in handling between the two.  I was told by a good Guzzi mechanic that a steering damper on a Tonti frame is probably useless.

[Roebling3]

Ever experience a 'tank slapper'?  The typical after thought is; I gotta get one of those things. If you ride bikes w/clip-ons or short handle bars you don't have as much leverage. Tank slappers often occur rather suddenly, under varied conditions and are sometimes violent. A steering damper can reduce your anxiety.

Under conditions like powering out of a down hill curve and the frt loosing traction a tank slapper can occur spontaneously and be a learning experience. My most recent TS was induced on an up hill curve, loosing traction by riding over an unseen vinyl disc. Be careful out there.  R3~

[Wildroamer]

Thread drift warning....
I've never experienced a tank slapper, but on videos I've seen, they look like they might cause me to soil myself.
Loosen grip on bar and pray, is that pretty much the survival technique recommended?

[Ncdan]

I have an '00 Jackal and an '03 Stone.  Took it off the Stone and left it on the Jackal and notice no difference in handling between the two.  I was told by a good Guzzi mechanic that a steering damper on a Tonti frame is probably useless.

I’m with you John. I’ve had bikes with and with out and can’t tell any difference. On the bikes I’ve had and have now, with them, I’ve adjusted them all the way in both directions and can’t tell a bit of different on the same trial run roads and conditions.
That being said. I guess there’s a possibility that it’s one of those things that you can’t tell that it offers any effects until conditions call on it, then it does it’s job.
I don’t think I would ever remove one that the engineers at the factory felt the need to install on a given model.

[Chuck in Indiana]

The Guzzi "door closer" isn't really very good. The Mighty Scura has an Ohlins, and it is. The difference from full to no damping is fairly subtle, though.

[John Croucher]

First thing to do is remove the rubber bushings in the handlebar risers attachments on the triple tree. 

Sit on your bike, turn the bar to the left against the stop and then continue pushing and you will see the bar end move another 1-1/2 inch.  Now turn to the right against the stop and continue pushing another 1-1/2 inch.  This will give you a good picture of how sloppy your handlebars are while riding down the road. 

I tossed the rubber bushings and made up some solid metal spacers to replace them and bolted the risers straight to the triple tree.

I added a "real" steering damper on my 1100 Tonti bike.  It makes a big difference when riding at higher speeds or on curvy roads.  I can reach down and make adjustments while riding when needed.

I removed the regulator/rectifier and made a 3/8 x 1 x 5 inch bracket.  Attached the reg/rect back onto this bracket and attached the bracket back onto the frame.  The excess length is extended out to the left side of the bike.  I tapped the hole in the bottom left side of the triple tree for a M10 screw.  Attaching the dampner between the bracket and the screw in the triple tree.  I will have to take some pictures and post them up. 

[ahaussmann123]

Thread drift warning....
I've never experienced a tank slapper, but on videos I've seen, they look like they might cause me to soil myself.
Loosen grip on bar and pray, is that pretty much the survival technique recommended?

Tank slappers happen! More often on sportbikes than cruisers or traditional cycles.

When in doubt... throttle it out...

There's no real technique to it, just keep changing what you're doing (bit of gas, bit of brake) until the bike stabilizes. Sometimes I've had to give some gas, sometimes I give it a bit of brake, if one doesn't work to smooth it out I try the other :P. It's not that scary.... only inaction would result in tragedy!

Steering dampers help, but don't eliminate this issue. Think of it as a third fork, for your steering instead of your wheel itself. It can create a smoother ride, and help when you hit bumps. On supersports the front wheel is off the ground a lot, exposing you to potential slappers when you lower the wheel a bit crooked. A quality steering damper on track bikes is absolutely a worthwhile investment, otherwise, eh imo.

[ampm7]

I've had them on nearly all my bikes particularly sport bikes because of the rake and trail. Quite some years ago, I bought a Suzuki GSXR750 and rode it home from the shop and I said to myself 'this thing is positively dangerous'. The front wheel was very erratic and would not stay planted. I noticed after getting it home, that there was no steering damper. I put on a Scott's (one of the best) and problem solved. Those fellows that say they can't tell if they are working or not need to put on a good one. And yes, you will notice a difference especially going down the freeway with rain grooves and a stiff wind. It is particularly handy to have one that you can adjust on the fly as having a lot of tension for high speed will not work for low speed maneuvering. After a while, the Guzzi ones will run out of steam and need to be replaced. As I am doing right now on my EV...

[Tom]

Thread drift warning....
I've never experienced a tank slapper, but on videos I've seen, they look like they might cause me to soil myself.
Loosen grip on bar and pray, is that pretty much the survival technique recommended?

Let your arms be the damper.  DO NOT stiff arm the bars.  Shut down your throttle.  DO NOT downshift or hit the brakes.  Ride it out.

[chuck peterson]

I’m with Roebling3 on this...

On the street they (steering dampers) kick in during an instantaneous energetic release of energy tank slapper that’ll throw you off of the bike...you can’t keep your hands in control of, or even on, the handlebars. The bars are ripped back and forth from your hands its so fast.

I’ve had the experience on an r60/2 after hitting a dog...luckily i was going straight...about 6-7-8 high frequency left/right on the front wheel so the bars went crazy...instantaneo us.

Surprised it didn’t break a few fingers

My impression is steering dampers on street bikes are for that kind of situation

Racetrack, racing is a whole another magnitude but does the same thing, plus

Some 70s bike have a damper thru the head...large wheel on top

[Wildroamer]

Thanks AH124 and Tom! Hope to never need to deal with it, but will keep your suggestions somewhere in my mellon, hopefully within easy reach, haha!

[bigbikerrick]

On my 73 Eldo, with the big "buffalo" fairing, the steering damper helps. I had to go with a good quality aftermarket damper though. On my Tonti bikes, they seemed to make no real difference.
Rick.

[lucky phil]

Let your arms be the damper.  DO NOT stiff arm the bars.  Shut down your throttle.  DO NOT downshift or hit the brakes.  Ride it out.

These sort of quotes always make me laugh. In a full blooded tank slapper you dont get the opportunity to do any of that. What your referring to is a head shake or weave which may be the pre curser to a proper tank slapper. I had a massive one coming out of turn 12 at Phillip Island going back a few years on my GSXR1000 track bike. The track drops away on the exit and hard on the gas it would pick the front wheel up an inch or two, speed maybe around the 170kph mark. This time however when the wheel came down it decided to go into a massive lock to lock tank slapper (yes I felt it hitting the stops) and all I could do was try and keep hold of the bars. There was zero chance of applying any form or technique, way to violent for that. I just thought I'm going to be off this thing on the straight for gods sake which will look pretty dumb to those watching from the pit wall. The bike did straightened itself out by some miracle and I arrived at turn 1 with the no front brakes such was the violence of the event which had knocked the brake pads back into the callipers. I was prepared for this though and a few pumps had them back again.
I replaced the std Suzuki steering damper for the next track appearance with an Ohlins unit. So for a weave or head shake you will have time to apply some technique but for a full blooded instantaneous tank slapper all you can do is hang on and hope I'm afraid.
Ciao   

[Arctic Fox]

On my 73 Eldo, with the big "buffalo" fairing, the steering damper helps. I had to go with a good quality aftermarket damper though. On my Tonti bikes, they seemed to make no real difference.
Rick.

Just curiosity ... what is Tonti bike?

With low power & light weight bikes like small Moto Guzzi Nevada ... there would not be any benefits to have one of those (aftermarket)?
For example installed between front fork and crash bar?

[pebra]

Just curiosity ... what is Tonti bike?

With low power & light weight bikes like small Moto Guzzi Nevada ... there would not be any benefits to have one of those (aftermarket)?
For example installed between front fork and crash bar?

Hi, sorry you had to wait so long, I was certain someone would have informed you already!

Tonti was an Italian motorbike engineer who devised the frame for the V7 Sport in 1971 - this was the start of the beloved big block Tonti frame lineage which was so important for Guzzi for a long time. Does the 1400 series, which is still being made, have a Tonti frame?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lino_Tonti

Google "Tonti frame" and you'll find lots of interesting stuff, also on this board.

[john fish]

With low power & light weight bikes like small Moto Guzzi Nevada ... there would not be any benefits to have one of those (aftermarket)?
For example installed between front fork and crash bar?

I haven't heard of the small blocks (like your Nevada) being equipped with, or needing, a steering damper.  If your bike didn't come with one from the factory, you are probably OK going without a steering damper.

There are many, many, people here more knowledgeable than I am.  Let's hope some well-informed small block owners chime in soon.

[ampm7]

No, the 1400 does not have a Tonti frame.

[philwarner]

Some 70s bike have a damper thru the head...large wheel on top

Years ago in College I had a 66 Yamaha 305 Cross Country Sport with a friction steering damper on the head with a big black knob to adjust it, and I did experience some oscillations on that bike that increasing the friction would help reduce.  I was carrying the bike in the back of a pickup on a vacation in Savannah Ga when a dump truck crossed the center line and knocked my truck into a concrete bridge abutment at 35 MPH resulting in a very rapid stop and the bike hitting the front of the bed with enough force to bend the fork legs.  After a stint in the hospital with a broken jaw and getting the bike back home to Ohio. I tried to straighten the forks but only managed to make them equally bent so I put the bend toward the front which increased the trail and all but eliminated the tendency toward tank slapping.

Just after the wreck in 1968 with my totaled ford truck in the background







Later in 1971 with a very early Vetter S1000 fairing


picture to url

I learned just a few years ago that Craig Vetter designed his first fairing around this same year and model Yamaha 305.  The seat is from another bike and I bought it at Spook's Motorcycle Graveyard in Trotwood Ohio where I went to high school, and I just had to add this link to a story I ran across today about Spook
https://motorcycleviews.com/tales/story137.htm


For MG content, My 96 Cali came to me without a steering damper and I haven't found that a problem...yet.

[Tom]

Good short read on Spook.  The friction dampers can be rebuilt.  Rod in Honolulu took his apart and used a piece of leather.

[Huzo]

The main drama is that a proper tankie is an unstable condition, meaning that the oscillations increase dramatically in amplitude and frequency, each one having more energy than the last. They only stop by themselves if some contributing factor alters..(tyre down force, handlebar resistance...etc)
There needs to be some damping influence that dissipates the energy in the oscillations and this will more than likely be the flapping of your arms as the ‘bars thrash around like a cheap sex toy.
Just “releasing the grip on the ‘bars” will not work as a solution, because the whole thing started as an unstable condition and therefore will not magically fix itself by “riding it out”, each successive oscillatory motion will put more energy into the system than the previous one.
If you try rolling off the throttle on some bikes and releasing your hands on the ‘bars during normal riding, you’ll notice a slight oscillation commence that gets very quickly worse over a couple of seconds, that’s the start of the rot, don’t tempt it too far.
Actually, the bike is countersteering in a crude manner, but as the ‘bars pass through the centre point they continue to the opposite extreme, but by now have had energy imparted and go further than before, so the shit hits the fan.
Also.
We know that the handlebars are in a constant state of oscillation when riding, with imperceptible but very real movements, it has to be. If you suddenly clamped your bars rock solid in normal riding, you will crash in about 3 seconds, a well designed damper mount will have a very small amount of “slap” designed into the bracket to allow for tiny ‘bar movements that do not engage the damper.
I think my MV Agusta did not, but it had an Ohlins damper that provided very little resistance to slow movement, but increasing resistance as the velocity of bar movement rose...(I think it may be a function of the square of the piston velocity).
Those friction things are garbage, because once static friction is overcome it is easier to keep the discs slipping, so the design is a nonsense, it’s all they had back then though.
You might as well have taken a roll of bum fodder and a packet of band aids for post crash attention.

[Tom]

Yeah the oem friction damper is just barely usable.  What would suggest for a tank slapper at 145 kph???  This would be on a '96 California 1100i with a touring load on the rear.  No passenger.  Not many options available.

[john fish]

I'm curious.  Did any of the small blocks come with steering dampers?

[Tom]

I stuck a VW Bug steering damper on my Eldo hack.  It really helped with the stock front end and with tightening up the steering neck bearings.

[andrewhush]

Phils description above matches exactly what happened to me on a straight dual carriageway pulling back into lane after an overtake at 60ish mph. Might have clipped a catseye road stud. It was all I could do to hold on as the bars flapped lock to lock at about 3 left and right reversals a second. i.e. 6 flaps! Slowing down gently to 50 and everything went back to normal except that the front caliper pistons had been flung back as Phil experienced. Loose cloth panniers, a spada handlebar fairing and no damper might have contributed.

This blast from the past is worth a look

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dz3OQTU-kE2s&ved=2ahUKEwiswKa_19LtAhXNa8AKHfMSDjIQjjgwAHoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3i3o1kor23sDTKVvLo3abl

[DaveJT]

Never had any issue with my 2000 Jackal. I’ve run it with and without. It is friction based and it probably gave up the ghost. The key is to get it on a center stand and make sure it moves freely lock to lock and isn’t hanging up. Also a good time to check your steering head bearings. 
And I think it’s best to throttle up and not slow down during a tank slapper.

On my 150cc scooter I had nasty head shake when chopping throttle from maybe 45 mph to 35 mph.  My arms easily absorbed it, but it was definitely there.  When I had the tires changed at the dealership, it pretty much all went away, so maybe the wheel was out of balance. 

[John Croucher]

[Tom]

Never had any issue with my 2000 Jackal. I’ve run it with and without. It is friction based and it probably gave up the ghost. The key is to get it on a center stand and make sure it moves freely lock to lock and isn’t hanging up. Also a good time to check your steering head bearings. 
And I think it’s best to throttle up and not slow down during a tank slapper.

On my 150cc scooter I had nasty head shake when chopping throttle from maybe 45 mph to 35 mph.  My arms easily absorbed it, but it was definitely there.  When I had the tires changed at the dealership, it pretty much all went away, so maybe the wheel was out of balance.

Maybe the air pressure was low.

[DaveJT]

Maybe the air pressure was low.

Nope. Well within range.

[ampm7]

John Croucher, did you fit that steering damper to an EV?