Yes, An Oil Thread. But...A Question About Dirty Oil?

[Tom H]

I have been wondering about this for years. When you drain your oil at your normal interval and it drains out black and looks black in your catch pan. But if you stick your finger in it and look at the oil on your finger, brand A may look amber and brand B looks black. Also, I'm not talking about diesel oil, just normal car and bike oil.

Which is doing a better job?

Years ago I used a major brand oil that always came out black and looked black on the dip stick. I always figured that it was getting burnt?? in my Guzzi. Another major brand always looked almost like new so I stayed with that one.

While on this. When you check your oil just before your service. The oil on the dip stick is still amber. Why does it look black while going into your catch pan and when you look at it in your catch pan?

Hey, it's winter in the norther hemisphere. Oil threads can be fun

Tom

[acguzzi]

texas tea!

[RinkRat II]

      Mine is Purple, going in and coming out.  Royal Purple 20w50.

         Paul B

[Wayne Orwig]

Been waiting to use this: (click on it)



One of the first things I saw with a Google search was from Amsoil. They said heat cycling darkens oil, and soot from blowby turns it black.

[Tom]

The oil going into the drain pan has settled and is carrying the sludge and crap.  Check the smell too. 

[lucky phil]

I have been wondering about this for years. When you drain your oil at your normal interval and it drains out black and looks black in your catch pan. But if you stick your finger in it and look at the oil on your finger, brand A may look amber and brand B looks black. Also, I'm not talking about diesel oil, just normal car and bike oil.

Which is doing a better job?

Years ago I used a major brand oil that always came out black and looked black on the dip stick. I always figured that it was getting burnt?? in my Guzzi. Another major brand always looked almost like new so I stayed with that one.

While on this. When you check your oil just before your service. The oil on the dip stick is still amber. Why does it look black while going into your catch pan and when you look at it in your catch pan?

Hey, it's winter in the norther hemisphere. Oil threads can be fun

Tom

Sigh, why does a glass of sea water look clear in the glass and when you look at the sea it looks dark? fairly obvious. 
The blackness of oil is the carbon deposits from combustion that the oil filter can't filter out. The more short trips you do on the warmup map the faster the oil will turn black as well as the more over rich the mixture or the more blowby or another half a dozen reasons. It's also the reason that if you leave the oil in your engine long enough it will eventually go out of grade high due to being overloaded with combustion biproduct contamination.

Ciao

[ampm7]

One reason is mass. Say you put your oil into a container that is a jar that is 4" at the base and 8" tall. Because of the density of the oil it will appear dark. But spread that out to a 2'x2' square and it will appear much lighter. Mass + density equals darkness or thereabouts...E=Mc2- just joking...

[Perazzimx14]

One reason is mass. Say you put your oil into a container that is a jar that is 4" at the base and 8" tall. Because of the density of the oil it will appear dark. But spread that out to a 2'x2' square and it will appear much lighter. Mass + density equals darkness or thereabouts...E=Mc2- just joking...

E ='s MC Hammer

[SmithSwede]

One reason is mass. Say you put your oil into a container that is a jar that is 4" at the base and 8" tall. Because of the density of the oil it will appear dark. But spread that out to a 2'x2' square and it will appear much lighter. Mass + density equals darkness or thereabouts...E=Mc2- just joking...

How does the oil know it is in a jar versus spread out?

[bad Chad]

Once againg WG posters come through when no one else can!

[Tom]

 

[Canuck750]

Oil looks dark in the drain pan because the pan is made of black plastic. 

[reidy]

I have never replied to an Oil thread, but it is 2020 and nothing is normal.

To state the obvious, there are a lot of opinions about oil.

I have never had an engine fail or have got rid of a bike or car, due to what I would call an engine oil related condition. All of the faults or frustrations I have had have been related to bits failing that make up the rest of the bike.

Therefore I would like to know if anyone here has had to do an engine rebuild, on say a post 1990 bike due to wear that can be attributed to oil. Please rule out the ones where the bike was run with low oil as the best oil in the world would not have made a difference. Also rule out the bikes that have a design fault, say with the cam followers, that it would not matter if you ran oil mixed with angels tears it still would have failed.   

For those that have had to do an engine rebuild, was it part of a full resto and are we talking 100 of thousands of kilometers.

Steve

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Dirty oil?  Was it used as a personnel lubricant?

[Wayne Orwig]

Therefore I would like to know if anyone here has had to do an engine rebuild, on say a post 1990 bike due to wear that can be attributed to oil.

Meaningless to ask such a thing.

For example, there are people that swear that Seafoam added to gasoline is the greatest thing ever. It not only gives a boast in power, it also improves fuel economy. And cures back pain and eliminates bald spots. Yet people that actually test it can't find that it does anything. I have soaked carb parts in it, and they are still varnished after sitting in it for weeks. Yet, there are people that still claim it has magical properties. Years and years ago, people swore that Slick 50 oil additive was the best thing every. That it prevented engine wear. Yet repeated testing proved that it actually INCREASED engine wear. Even after the company was forced to refund money to everyone, people still would use it. You can still buy it, but they no longer are allowed to make the outrageous claims.

So, where will you find anyone that has actually useable facts?

Pick the olive oil / yak fat lube and go ride.

[RinkRat II]

                 

Pick the olive oil / yak fat lube and go ride.

      Yep! It's the only thing my Mom will let me use in the Ducati
                 



      Paul B

[sign216]

For example, there are people that swear that Seafoam added to gasoline is the greatest thing ever.

Let me poke the fire by saying:  Marvel Mystery Oil

They claim you can add it to oil and/or gasoline.  If it's good for one, it's got to be bad for the other (I think).


I actually use it in one application:  I have a couple refillable oil cans I keep around for general lube (hinges, etc).  I refill them w motor oil, thinned w Marvel Mystery.  The combo is super cheap.

[DaveJT]

I think someone once said “oil is good, use it”. Or something to that effect.

[SmithSwede]

My strong belief is that if you use the specified viscosity and grade of oil, manufactured by a reputable company, and change it at the recommended intervals, the engine and related components will last far longer than most people will own the vehicle. 

So who really has a sound basis to answer this question?  If you have run a motorcycle to 200,000 miles or more, you might have a basis for an opinion.  If you manage a fleet of 18-wheelers, you might have some clue.  Otherwise, I don’t get it. 

The oil debates are like people arguing over which brand of bricks last the longest.   Even though almost nobody has seen a brick wear out.  And most people don’t actually have a reason to care whether their household bricks will last 75 versus 125 years. 

[pete mcgee]

Oil discolouration.
A few causes.
Heat cycles.
Ring blow by.
Detergent package in the oil ie does it clean sludge and then hold the crap in suspension? (This btw is a good thing)
Dip stick colour vs colour in the sump, volume, depth and thickness of the oil film.
The important thing is how much "sludge" is left in the bottom of the sump, the oil should hold most debris in suspension and that gets removed when you change the oil. And being a Guzzi owner roughly every second oil change you drop the sump to change the filter and ferret around in the sump to find "something" to worry about or start an oil thread.
Lockdown + winter, seems cabin fever is a thing........

[lucky phil]

I have never replied to an Oil thread, but it is 2020 and nothing is normal.

To state the obvious, there are a lot of opinions about oil.

I have never had an engine fail or have got rid of a bike or car, due to what I would call an engine oil related condition. All of the faults or frustrations I have had have been related to bits failing that make up the rest of the bike.

Therefore I would like to know if anyone here has had to do an engine rebuild, on say a post 1990 bike due to wear that can be attributed to oil. Please rule out the ones where the bike was run with low oil as the best oil in the world would not have made a difference. Also rule out the bikes that have a design fault, say with the cam followers, that it would not matter if you ran oil mixed with angels tears it still would have failed.   

For those that have had to do an engine rebuild, was it part of a full resto and are we talking 100 of thousands of kilometers.

Steve

That's because like the vast majority of people you simply dont have enough exposure to engine failures or premature wear or oil related conditions and would be unlikely to recognise an oil related failure even if you did experience one.
So here are a few examples of modern engine issues that can be attributed to engine oil inadequacies.
LSPI, low speed pre ignition engine failures. Experienced by modern turbocharged cars and directly related to engine oil. This is why the latest generation of engine oils are now enhanced and designated SN "plus" oils as an interim until the next ISLAC GF-6 update to oil specs.

Direct injection engine inlet valve coking. Latest generation of direct injection engines suffer from inlet valve coking due to not having fuel with detergents constantly washing off oil residue from PCV systems recirculated back into the inlet tract. Causes loss of power and poor running and currently the gold standard fix is to clean the backs of the valves with walnut shell blasting. The condition is exacerbated buy the use of inappropriate engine oil with lower than desirable volatility.
I've experienced a company wide changeover of the jet engine oil we used (not an easy simple thing) specifically because of the need for an oil that is less susceptible to coking in the aft bearing cavity of our engines which leads to failure and/or premature engine removal.

Just a few examples. If you are in the aviation racing or heavy haulage or heavy machinery world then you are far more likely to experience oil failure related issues Engine lubrication is a science.

Ciao
 

[reidy]

Direct injection engine inlet valve coking. Latest generation of direct injection engines suffer from inlet valve coking due to not having fuel with detergents constantly washing off oil residue from PCV systems recirculated back into the inlet tract. Causes loss of power and poor running and currently the gold standard fix is to clean the backs of the valves with walnut shell blasting. The condition is exacerbated buy the use of inappropriate engine oil with lower than desirable volatility.

Ciao

I would argue that the oil buildup is not a function of poor quality oil but a design fault. A common fix is to incorporate a catch can that takes the oil mist out of the air that is being burnt for emission reasons. Yes in some areas a catch can is not legal because it is not original. It would not be two hard for a manufacture to plump the catch can through a gravity filter into the sump and solve the design fault.

 In your example of turbo cars, you state that a correct grade of oil must be used. This ties in with Smithswede's comment about using the grade specified by the manufacturer. You can't put whale fat in your turbo Nissan and expect it to work.   

As far as the jet oil goes, was the decision to increase engine life or reduce maintenance cost due to not having to do a compressor wash every so many flying hours?

[lucky phil]

I would argue that the oil buildup is not a function of poor quality oil but a design fault. A common fix is to incorporate a catch can that takes the oil mist out of the air that is being burnt for emission reasons. Yes in some areas a catch can is not legal because it is not original. It would not be two hard for a manufacture to plump the catch can through a gravity filter into the sump and solve the design fault.

 In your example of turbo cars, you state that a correct grade of oil must be used. This ties in with Smithswede's comment about using the grade specified by the manufacturer. You can't put whale fat in your turbo Nissan and expect it to work.   

As far as the jet oil goes, was the decision to increase engine life or reduce maintenance cost due to not having to do a compressor wash every so many flying hours?

The "plus" designation isn't related to a grade or quality of the oil but the specification and suitability for the purpose. The carbon build up can be vastly improved by using high quality full synthetic oils with low volatility so as with the LSPI its a case of oil technology not quite keeping pace with engine development. Engine and oil technology tend to leap frog each other and in the case of DI engines its not really a design fault as I'm sure the many many manufacturers that have produced many millions of DI engines would attest. The issue is oils haven't kept pace with engine technology in some specific areas.
The reason for the jet engine oil change was to do with the inability of the original oil to not coke in the oil supply and scavenge lines in and around the aft turbine bearing cavity thereby leading to oil starvation and or cavity flooding and leakage and sometimes fires. Not related to compressor washing.
Another oil related issue for our style of flat tappet engines is lifter and cam wear. This is due to a direct link between the reduction in ZDDP in modern oils back in the 90's to prevent CAT converter contamination. manufacturers moved to roller lifters to eliminate the issue. So another very common well recognised oil related failure issue for older engines but plenty of people just shrug their shoulder and replace the parts and still use the same oil. So instead of getting 200,000klm + from a set of lifters they get 120,000 klm.
 
Ciao

[Tom H]

There have been some very interesting replies. I didn't intend to start a normal oil debate. I just wanted to understand if when you changed your oil if it is better to have oil that looks clean/amber or dirty/black on the dip stick and your finger.

Maybe I should rephrase this.

If you have a brand new engine that you built yourself. Would you want the oil to come out clean/amber or dirty/black?

If you have an old engine that ran Brand  B for years and comes out black on your finger. Then you change to brand A and after a few changes, now comes out clear/amber. Which was doing the better job at keeping the engine clean?

Again, wasn't trying to start a normal oil thread. Just have always wondered which is better. I have been using the one that comes out clean.amber for about 25 years. When I pull the pan on a non oil filter and look up under the skirt, the block looks clean. So it must not be too bad.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom

[lucky phil]

There have been some very interesting replies. I didn't intend to start a normal oil debate. I just wanted to understand if when you changed your oil if it is better to have oil that looks clean/amber or dirty/black on the dip stick and your finger.

Maybe I should rephrase this.

If you have a brand new engine that you built yourself. Would you want the oil to come out clean/amber or dirty/black?

If you have an old engine that ran Brand  B for years and comes out black on your finger. Then you change to brand A and after a few changes, now comes out clear/amber. Which was doing the better job at keeping the engine clean?

Again, wasn't trying to start a normal oil thread. Just have always wondered which is better. I have been using the one that comes out clean.amber for about 25 years. When I pull the pan on a non oil filter and look up under the skirt, the block looks clean. So it must not be too bad.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom

The questions are too simplistic. An oil that comes out looking clean can be for good or bad reasons. It can be because you run your engine on LP gas which leaves the oil looking pretty clean for quite some time. Oil that comes out black can be good because it shows the detergents and additives in the oil designed to keep contaminants in suspension are doing their job or it can mean that you are running a really rich mixture or lots of cold start events and the engine is producing a lot of combustion contaminants that the oil needs to deal with. Same with changing from one oil to another and getting the results you mention.
They are both contextual questions and need more detail about the particular engine, how it's operated, the oil and filter change intervals, local weather conditions plus other variables. 

Ciao

[Tom H]

Lucky Phil, then it appears that there is no simple answer to my what was hopefully a simple question. Too many variables.

I will continue to use the one that comes out clean that I have been using for years. FWIW, I also use a synthetic in my EVT that also comes out clean, not black. When you look up under it's skirt, it's clean enough to eat off of as long as you don't mind a little synthetic seasoning.

Thank you all!!!!!!!!
Tom

[DaveJT]

Meaningless to ask such a thing.

For example, there are people that swear that Seafoam added to gasoline is the greatest thing ever. It not only gives a boast in power, it also improves fuel economy. And cures back pain and eliminates bald spots. Yet people that actually test it can't find that it does anything. I have soaked carb parts in it, and they are still varnished after sitting in it for weeks. Yet, there are people that still claim it has magical properties. Years and years ago, people swore that Slick 50 oil additive was the best thing every. That it prevented engine wear. Yet repeated testing proved that it actually INCREASED engine wear. Even after the company was forced to refund money to everyone, people still would use it. You can still buy it, but they no longer are allowed to make the outrageous claims.

So, where will you find anyone that has actually useable facts?

Pick the olive oil / yak fat lube and go ride.

I hear you Wayne, but sea foam is a gas treatment. Mostly for winter storage. You can’t except it to be a solvent for dirty parts? I think your experiment might be a bit flawed.  That said, I’ve had good experiences with sea foam, and it can’t be placebo effect cause that don’t work on motorcycles, they are much too clever for that.

[SmithSwede]

To answer your hypothetical, with a brand new engine, I would choose the oil to come out the dirtiest.  All other things being equal.   

Why?  Because the oil is not creating the “dirt.”  So the oil getting dirty means the oil is successfully capturing this dirt, which you will eventually remove from the engine by changing the oil.   

[guzziart]

Oh good, another oil thread.

Well, here's a fact for all of you.  I change my oil once per year or at 3k-4k mile intervals unless I'm on a wild west trip which turns into a 5k-6k oil change interval.  I buy the cheapest oil I can find, usually Super Tech or Rotella.  When I do an oil level check, I don't care what it looks like or how it smells, I aint eating or drinking it...just making sure there is enough in the crankcase. 

This information is factual and support documents are availble to substantiate claims made.

This is the 2nd "oil thread" I've responded to today, I think I'll treat myself to a nice cold beer!

[DaveJT]

Oh good, another oil thread.

Well, here's a fact for all of you.  I change my oil once per year or at 3k-4k mile intervals unless I'm on a wild west trip which turns into a 5k-6k oil change interval.  I buy the cheapest oil I can find, usually Super Tech or Rotella.  When I do an oil level check, I don't care what it looks like or how it smells, I aint eating or drinking it...just making sure there is enough in the crankcase. 

This information is factual and support documents are availble to substantiate claims made.

This is the 2nd "oil thread" I've responded to today, I think I'll treat myself to a nice cold beer!

I concur. A lot and I mean a lot of guys swear by rotella, at least the older formula.  But flat tappet guzzis should have a oil that meets a minimum spec.  For zddp and weight ( 10w-60 ? ).  That said I don’t lose any sleep over 15,000 mile oil changes on my truck as long as it aint burning too much oil.