2021 Lemans

[Bpreynolds2]

Not necessarily.

There's no reason they couldn't make it something more special.

They could use the 7SM and give it more hp, multi-mapping, USD forks and dual discs along with the already improved rear suspension.

That would be both a real change from the current Racer and arguably really justify the higher price from the other V7 variants.

Hell one could argue properly done it would reduce the "overstyled" nature of the current Racer.

I don't disagree with any of this.  It would still just mostly be a show pony to me.  And hey, nothing wrong with that.  But please, pleeeeassse, will someone at the drawing table remove the number plate.  Sheesh.  Worse than the fake "carbs" that some of the FI Bonnie's had - still have? 

[andyals]

I don't disagree with any of this.  It would still just mostly be a show pony to me.  And hey, nothing wrong with that.  But please, pleeeeassse, will someone at the drawing table remove the number plate.  Sheesh.  Worse than the fake "carbs" that some of the FI Bonnie's had - still have?

Saddle off, fours bolts and it's off in under two minutes

[Kev m]

I don't disagree with any of this. It would still just mostly be a show pony to me. 

For the life of me I cannot understand how someone who likes the V7 Special or Stone would say that about a V7 LeMans, especially if it had all the upgrades I just mentioned. It would undoubtedly perform "better" than the original in the twisties arguably (especially with better motor, suspension, and brakes) better than the current crop or even recently announced V7s.

How's that a show pony?

Again, if I wanted a friggin' Ape, Duc, Hyabusa etc, I could buy it, but just because that's not what this would be wouldn't relegate to the paddock of a show pony.

[oldbike54]

 Lemans should mean something , just because Pontiac used the name for a pedestrian saloon car doesn't mean Guzzi should do the same . It might be true that a modern small block could be made to perform as well as an old BB Lemans , in terms relative to the era calling a new SB a Lemans is a bit silly . IMHO .

 Dusty

[blackcat]

I understand the horsepower comparisons between the original LeMans and a V7 based LeMans but shouldn't a contemporary version have the same or similar amount of power as Triumph Thruxton,etc.?   You know, Ohlins suspension, 103 HP even if it isn't accurate, 83 lbs. of torque and a full line of accessories. Yes, they'd have to charge $16K but they aren't marketing the bike to the majority of the suspender snapper's who will be clinging to their T's and T-3's until death do they part.

https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/classic/thruxton-rs
 

[MGrego]

There are varying opinions about the return of the "LeMans" both pro and con. 

Not to change the subject, but how was the V11 series of Lemans received when they came out in the early 2000's ?  Did the purists frown on it ?  Was it considered sport touring rather than sport ?   Was there any controversy ?

I'm just wondering if History will repeat itself ...   

[Moparnut72]

The Lemans is a gorgeous bike but at 75, get off my lawn geezerhood, not my type of bike any longer. It would be mostly a garage queen. I'll stick with my V7lll Special. A bit more relaxed and my Audace for longer rides and it is getting to be a handfull at times, slow speeds mainly.
kk

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I want Guzzi to make the exact bike I dreamed up while I was drinking a beer in front of the TV.

It would be so easy! All I want is a 300# bike with 150hp, modern style but doesnt look like a bug, retro feel but not look like the same old stuff they have made since the 70's, state of the art but I dont want ABS and traction control, and I want dual discs-ohlins suspension-perfect fit and finish but it can't cost more than $7999. One last thing, it MUST be an air-cooled V-twin with shaft drive.

I'm not gonna buy one, I just want them to make it so I can buy it 6 years after release with 3k miles on it; at about 85% off MSRP; from someone on cycletrader.

[blackcat]

I want Guzzi to make the exact bike I dreamed up while I was drinking a beer in front of the TV.

It would be so easy! All I want is a 300# bike with 150hp, modern style but doesnt look like a bug, retro feel but not look like the same old stuff they have made since the 70's, state of the art but I dont want ABS and traction control, and I want dual discs-ohlins suspension-perfect fit and finish but it can't cost more than $7999. One last thing, it MUST be an air-cooled V-twin with shaft drive.

I'm not gonna buy one, I just want them to make it so I can buy it 6 years after release with 3k miles on it; at about 85% off MSRP; from someone on cycletrader.

That about covers it.

[bad Chad]

Said it before, 95% of those crying for one, wouldn't buy a new LeMans if Guzzi makes it.   I hope there is a lot of sales in that 5%!

Kev stated things pretty well.

[twowheeladdict]

When you look at what other manufacturers are doing its completely and utterly lazy.

Why would I look at what other manufacturers are doing?  I’m only interested in air cooled bikes that are fun on 45 mph back roads. I have no need or desire for high performance motorcycles. If I did, I would be back on Japanese bikes.

[Bpreynolds2]

For the life of me I cannot understand how someone who likes the V7 Special or Stone would say that about a V7 LeMans, especially if it had all the upgrades I just mentioned. It would undoubtedly perform "better" than the original in the twisties arguably (especially with better motor, suspension, and brakes) better than the current crop or even recently announced V7s.

How's that a show pony?

Again, if I wanted a friggin' Ape, Duc, Hyabusa etc, I could buy it, but just because that's not what this would be wouldn't relegate to the paddock of a show pony.

Sidebar here.  Everyone's idea of a showpony is gonna be different and on a motorcycle board - where we nearly deal exclusively in opinion - I'm not sure anyone's idea of one is more or less valid than anyone else's.  So I won't be offended when someone says I drive a joke anymore than anyone else here should be offended by what I say.

Btw, did anyone actually see or get the bear poking comment above?  That was a kind of joke.  But then again, I guess bear poking is just always a kind of joke until it isn't.   

Oh yes, back to the quote.  Kev, they are not going to dial back the styling on these things.  You KNOW they are not.  If anything they are going to turn it up a notch or two even for a full fledged Lemans version.  I may even make the (gasp) absurd argument that your changes make it even more a show pony.  The styling won't change and for your improvements, have you made it a more practical bike?  No, you've made it a more expensive bike than even a Racer, still down on power from pretty much anything else in the class, and a slightly better bike than a V7 in the twisties, a place where it will never rule no matter how much suspension money you throw at it.

And as per the showpony comment.  You got me man  I don't know how any bike with 48 horsepower (oh wait, they've bumped it to 65? 70? 75?) better forks, a chrome tank, a belt strap across the tank, a manufactured badge to tell you what number you got, a side number plate, and an oddball flat track era headlight topper, and a 12k? 13k? price tag could ever be called a show pony?   

[bad Chad]

I think what Murray wants is a highish performing engine with equal suspension, that looks mostly like a 40 year old Guzzi.  It would have to be liquid cooled and there would be no reason to make it look like the legendary Guzzi v twin.

[Kev m]

I understand the horsepower comparisons between the original LeMans and a V7 based LeMans but shouldn't a contemporary version have the same or similar amount of power as Triumph Thruxton,etc.?   You know, Ohlins suspension, 103 HP even if it isn't accurate, 83 lbs. of torque and a full line of accessories. Yes, they'd have to charge $16K but they aren't marketing the bike to the majority of the suspender snapper's who will be clinging to their T's and T-3's until death do they part.

https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/classic/thruxton-rs

No actually I think that's precisely my point. As WONDERFUL a job as they did to tie the Neo-LC-Bonnies to the air-cooled ones they in fact created something different. Going water-cooled alone would be enough for me to say it's not the same thing.

Kinda like it looks how Harley will likely kill the Sportster soon and replace it completely with something not named a Sportster.

Making a smallblock LeMans that outperformed the original and looked as close to it as they could would be about as true to the name as possible, and way more so than sticking the name on a new water-cooled anything else, especially an L3 or L4 or who knows what.

And no just going ape with the CCs - like a 1400 LeMans wouldn't be a "better" homage.

At least to me. YMMV and all that.

Oh yes, back to the quote.  Kev, they are not going to dial back the styling on these things.  You KNOW they are not.  If anything they are going to turn it up a notch or two even for a full fledged Lemans version.  I may even make the (gasp) absurd argument that your changes make it even more a show pony.  The styling won't change and for your improvements, have you made it a more practical bike?  No, you've made it a more expensive bike than even a Racer, still down on power from pretty much anything else in the class, and a slightly better bike than a V7 in the twisties, a place where it will never rule no matter how much suspension money you throw at it.

What the hell do you think the CATEGORY IS?

Just cause two bikes have the same CCs doesn't put them in the same category.

The CATEGORY is air-cooled, retro twins. The category is pushrods. The category is as much simplicity as you can get from a machine today with some real world performance.

The CATEGORY doesn't have a lot of competition right now, maybe some REs, maybe the last of the Sportsters (though the killed the  Roadster).

The CATEGORY WAS possibly the Thruxton that was out before the water-cooled models, the category WAS the small air-cooled Monsters and maybe is the Scrambler (though with Ducs you throw away a lot of the easy maintenance).

The CATEGORY is a V85 for road use without the ugly ADV identity.

The CATEGORY is BUY A MOTO GUZZI cause it ooooozzzeessss Guzzisitti, not Japanificating transfiguration.

[blackcat]

"No actually I think that's precisely my point. As WONDERFUL a job as they did to tie the Neo-LC-Bonnies to the air-cooled ones they in fact created something different. Going water-cooled alone would be enough for me to say it's not the same thing"

"....the same or similar amount of power as Triumph Thruxton,etc"

I was just using the Thruxton as one of many examples. The new BMW retro bike is 1800 cc's and it's air cooled. Let's face it, Piaggio doesn't want to spend the money to achieve a new Guzzi engine and I understand that given the state of the motorcycle business.

But if they can't achieve the 100+ HP goal, then just keep making the V7's and don't call any of them a LeMans.

[LowRyter]

Someone mentioned the new Thruxton.   I think that's a fair marker.  Personally, I'd like the Guzzi to have perhaps a little more power,  like 110 rwhp and maybe 500lb gassed?  Couple that with sure Guzzi handing and feel and famous torque curve, longitudinal crank V-twin and shaft drive. 

The LeMans version should be influenced by the beautiful styling of the last spine frame LeMans, the naked version perhaps a combo of the Grsio and V11 Sport and maybe a half faired/naked dress up like the original LeMans. 

Unfortunately, it appears that Guzzi has no drivetrain in the class that's Euro compliant.

Funny BMW makes hay with the R nine T model which just a ripoff of the Griso styling.  Rather than upgrade the Griso engine and expand the line, Guzzi gave up.

The new line of small blocks are nice looking bikes.  Guzzi had done a good job of modernizing them.  But the LeMans series should reflect more performance and customers need a choice.  Personally, I was interested in a sportier bike and have moved on from  Guzzi.  We could also write about a new Touring bike too.

[Kev m]

OK, I'll end with Semantics, they'd sell a ton, despite any objections.

I know you can reuse the old name on a completely different product and get results (our new Defender is an example of that and they're selling a shit ton of them). However that also completely changes the customer and focus of the product. I'm not sure that's what Guzzi SHOULD do. I mean WTF would Piaggio BOTHER, if they want that kind of bike they already have a brand to sell it under Aprilia.

Guzzi however, is more like the Jeep (which was more like the old Defender). It doesn't have to be all the things a modern SUV (like that new Defender is) to continue to garner sales and loyalty and love. A smallblock LeMans is more the Jeep than the Defender to me. If they try to wade into the water of water-cooled, multi-cylinder sportbikes they'll get lost in the sea of sameness.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

how about this...   Forget 'LEMANS' for a minute..

What if they put the full output v85 engine in a v7 chassis with upgraded kit (clipons, rearsets, dual disc, usd fork, bikini fairing and/or seat cowl <with or without number plate lol>) and call it a V7 Monza or V7 Racer

Then anyone who wants a world-beater sportbike Guzzi can buy a sticker that says "LeMans" and stick it on their Aprilia RSV4

[blackcat]

Jeez, I'm not even talking about 180hp bike.

I don't have a problem with the small blocks, nice bikes but a LeMans should have a certain level of WOW and I don't see that happening with the small block engine.

The MGS/01 had lot's of Wow and plenty of press to go with that design and that was the last time Guzzi received that level of attention. 20 years ago.

[Bpreynolds2]

Jeez, I'm not even talking about 180hp bike.

I don't have a problem with the small blocks, nice bikes but a LeMans should have a certain level of WOW and I don't see that happening with the small block engine.

The MGS/01 had lot's of Wow and plenty of press to go with that design and that was the last time Guzzi received that level of attention. 20 years ago.

I agree.  Though I won't be buying one regardless, I do think you can't just lightly trade on the Lemans badge by tarting up a V7.  The latter is kinda what they tried with the Eldo.  If they are going to use the Lemans badge, I think it would need to be a ground up creation or major revision on the scale of the change between the Cali 1100 to 1400. 

[andyals]

I agree.  Though I won't be buying one regardless, I do think you can't just lightly trade on the Lemans badge by tarting up a V7.  The latter is kinda what they tried with the Eldo.  If they are going to use the Lemans badge, I think it would need to be a ground up creation or major revision on the scale of the change between the Cali 1100 to 1400.

Well I'd have one but then I'm a new guzzi customer.
Guzzi should shed their die hard stalwarts, most of whom would never buy a new Guzzi anyway and so do not contribute a penny to the business.
Why should they determine in which direction the company goes.
Guzzi should be looking to a new less blinkered younger demographic prepared to invest in the latest thing rather than those wallowing in nostalgia with their wallets firmly closed.

[Kev m]

I agree.  Though I won't be buying one regardless, I do think you can't just lightly trade on the Lemans badge by tarting up a V7.  The latter is kinda what they tried with the Eldo.  If they are going to use the Lemans badge, I think it would need to be a ground up creation or major revision on the scale of the change between the Cali 1100 to 1400.

aarrrrggghh you drag me back.

I think the big disconnect that you are missing is that THIS ISN'T DESIGNED AROUND THE SIX or SEVEN PEOPLE in the world who currently know and give a crap about the LeMans from a historical standpoint AND who would only buy a LeMans badged bike if it was some sort of modern sportbike.

This is about the *many* new customers who never heard of the damn thing who would likely flock to it based on:

* Aesthetics
* Some historical connection they can bathe in without needing to really care.
* Real world attainable performance

Ala most Harley sales, Ala most Indian sales, Ala most Triumph neo-classic sales these many years, Ala RE sales, etc.

[DesertPilot]

If they did an 'R' version of the new 850cc V7, with better suspension, some of the other upgrades we all secretly want, and maybe a few tweaks to the ergonomics or styling, I'd have no trouble with them stocking a 'Lemans' label on it.  I'd also be heading straight to the dealer here to have a look.

Particularly if the heads had two more valves each.  After all, a man can dream... 

[Huzo]

Lemans should mean something , just because Pontiac used the name for a pedestrian saloon car doesn't mean Guzzi should do the same . It might be true that a modern small block could be made to perform as well as an old BB Lemans , in terms relative to the era calling a new SB a Lemans is a bit silly . IMHO .

 Dusty

Does that reasoning apply to the Triumph Daytona that was reborn as the 955i and did anyone turn their nose up in derision when Guzzi took the name and glued it onto their thing ?

[oldbike54]

Does that reasoning apply to the Triumph Daytona that was reborn as the 955i and did anyone turn their nose up in derision when Guzzi took the name and glued it onto their thing ?

 The modern Daytona is competitive with other bikes in the supersports class .

 Dusty

[oldbike54]

Well I'd have one but then I'm a new guzzi customer.
Guzzi should shed their die hard stalwarts, most of whom would never buy a new Guzzi anyway and so do not contribute a penny to the business.
Why should they determine in which direction the company goes.
Guzzi should be looking to a new less blinkered younger demographic prepared to invest in the latest thing rather than those wallowing in nostalgia with their wallets firmly closed.

 Bud , there isn't any reason for you to continue insulting the Guzzi demographic , are we clear ? We have been buying new Guzzis for years , promoting the brand , etc etc . Take a breath .

 Dusty

[Huzo]

I don’t necessarily except that a bike has to be “competitive” to acquire market acceptance. If you look across the range of offerings from any manufacturer, you’ll see that there are a spread of models that offer different levels of sportiness, tourability, utilitarian ability, or just plain pretty.
There is a broadly held belief that a bike has to be “competitive” to sell, that is certainly true, but competitive in what field ?
Dave Swanson’s V11 Sport is more desirable than a 2005 GSXR Suzuki, yet it’s not competitive. But it’s less desirable if you have a small budget.
The new RE Interceptors are not competitive with any modern Japanese mid size sportsbike, yet people will choose one for the nostalgic cues and everyday ride ability.
To nominate a bike as competitive, you must first know for sure what parameters the potential buyer rates as most important and these are as many and varied as the buyers themselves.

[Kev m]

That seemed fairly benign.

I was wondering what year Dusty thinks it is cause that Jackal is a couple of decades old now.

[oldbike54]

I was wondering what year Dusty thinks it is cause that Jackal is a couple of decades old now.

 Huh ? What does that have to do with this discussion ?

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Huh ? What does that have to do with this discussion ?

 Dusty

You said  "We"