Start of a new project, "1200 Ambassador".

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Do they have a lighter spring option for the 10 spring clutch as they do for the eight?  j I just put the surflex springs in the 8 spring lmIII and was pleasantly surprised by the lighter pull.  Maybe you could go hyd and go cable to a hidden MC . Have your cake and eat it too.

Yes. https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4986

Cable to a master cylinder?  I'm not building a BMW or V50 II here! 

[lucian]

Nope, requires both. Ignition map is rpm V throttle position. Baro pressure engine temp and OAT also trim the ignition values. A small Part of the reason EFI is better.

Ciao

So it looks like other than throttle position all the other sensors with be retained and functional without the dash.  I have an idea for the cable operated TPS. I have a few cable operated demand sensors from 1400's kicking around that would be plug and play . All you would need is a twin cable throttle ,one to linked carbs and the other to the tps spool. I think either of the pots from the demand sensor would work as is for your tps signal.

[Lesman]

Charlie,
I'm running 15M Ecu and California Vintage wiring harness in my build. A Norge runs a 5am ECU. I think you need to run the dash and it's switches(norge, griso, stelvio) 15M ECU is widely available (Guzzi, Ducati and Aprilia)and much cheaper than a 5AM.
My Quota runs a 15M Ecu. Some people are running carbs. and using the ECU for the ignition.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

So it looks like other than throttle position all the other sensors with be retained and functional without the dash.  I have an idea for the cable operated TPS. I have a few cable operated demand sensors from 1400's kicking around that would be plug and play . All you would need is a twin cable throttle ,one to linked carbs and the other to the tps spool. I think either of the pots from the demand sensor would work as is for your tps signal.

Kiwi_Roy is sending me a TPS that is cable operated and as I wrote yesterday, I'll be using a 2C throttle - one cable opening both carbs via splitter and the other can operate the TPS. If I can make the original ECU and coils work - great. If I can't, no biggie, I'll use an aftermarket ignition such as the Sachse.

Charlie,
I'm running 15M Ecu and California Vintage wiring harness in my build. A Norge runs a 5am ECU. I think you need to run the dash and it's switches(norge, griso, stelvio) 15M ECU is widely available (Guzzi, Ducati and Aprilia)and much cheaper than a 5AM.
My Quota runs a 15M Ecu. Some people are running carbs. and using the ECU for the ignition.

As I wrote in my first post, that's all I'm hoping to do. The customer supplied Mikuni flat-slides and I plan to use those.

[ratguzzi]

I put a 03 hydro in my loop and went to carbs. I cut every wire out of the wiring harness except anything to do with spark. I think about 4 wires. I then flashed the ecu to a spark curve of a 70s era Lemans with no tps bias. I had two small L brackets made out of billet and used them for the front mount eliminating any welding. They were known to crack but I cut a piece of pipe to fit in between the two L brackets with a stock long bolt and they have held up flawlessly. I can go take a few photos.
Not sure if the 1200 uses the same ecu but if it uses the same cam sensor, the 1100 ecu could be used.
JB

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I put a 03 hydro in my loop and went to carbs. I cut every wire out of the wiring harness except anything to do with spark. I think about 4 wires. I then flashed the ecu to a spark curve of a 70s era Lemans with no tps bias. I had two small L brackets made out of billet and used them for the front mount eliminating any welding. They were known to crack but I cut a piece of pipe to fit in between the two L brackets with a stock long bolt and they have held up flawlessly. I can go take a few photos.
Not sure if the 1200 uses the same ecu but if it uses the same cam sensor, the 1100 ecu could be used.
JB

Hi John! The 1200 engine mounts completely different - the mounting points are up high on the timing cover.

Different ECU as well.



However, the parts diagram shows the cam sensor/pickup to be the same, so the 1100 ECU could be an alternative. Thanks for that idea.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

My friend Martin stopped by this afternoon to help me shoehorn the big Norge lump into the Ambo frame. It fits, but there is nearly zero space between the engine and frame on the sides.








To install the transmission, it was necessary to remove all of the studs (and swingarm, etc.). Taking a cue from Martin/jacksonracing it will be bolted to the engine.






Just need to work up some engine mounts now.

[lucian]

I guess that takes the  guess work out of centering it off. 

[lucky phil]

How close is it. Less than 2mm clearance isn't really tenable in the real world. The crankcase will grow around .5mm @ 100 deg C in areas. Maybe shaving the cases a little is the way to go.

Ciao   

[jacksonracingcomau]

Not sure if my loopy’s “normal”, sat for 50 years with engine loose but frame widens by about an inch without being tightened.
Might be worth checking compressed figure from another before deciding how much to trim, shouldn’t be a problem trimming —is only fins you’d be grinding off, case itself should be no wider than old cases, again easy to measure.

And well done Charlie, looking good, not sure I’d want any more power in my one, front forks still the limiting factor for me, half a ton of unsprung weight is hard to control, forth bridge for yokes etc etc.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Not sure if my loopy’s “normal”, sat for 50 years with engine loose but frame widens by about an inch without being tightened.
Might be worth checking compressed figure from another before deciding how much to trim, shouldn’t be a problem trimming —is only fins you’d be grinding off, case itself should be no wider than old cases, again easy to measure.

And well done Charlie, looking good, not sure I’d want any more power in my one, front forks still the limiting factor for me, half a ton of unsprung weight is hard to control, forth bridge for yokes etc etc.

Every Loop frame I've laid hands on has always been very slightly sprung inwards and this one was no exception. Needed a bit of spreading to get the rear bolt spacers into place. Today I plan to measure the width of a Loop timing cover at the engine bolt hole, add in the width of the spacers and then compare that total to the width of the frame the Norge lump is in. I'm betting the frame needs to be spread out a few millimeters at least. That may give me enough clearance.

The forks are basically the same as an early Tonti at this point (Convert lowers, dampers and springs) but will be modified somewhat to deal with the extra weight.

Loop swingarm will be replaced with a Convert one for the larger, stronger u-joint and carrier bearing. Rear drive (V700) will need an upgrade as well, possibly an 8/33.

The Norge breather apparatus will even work.

[Don G]

What is the ground clearance looking like?  DonG

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

What is the ground clearance looking like?  DonG

Not great, 4"?

[Don G]

Extended forks an option?  DonG

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Extended forks an option?  DonG

Not unless we want to screw up the handling. As mentioned in a previous post, there will be changes in the fork internals, possibly slightly longer. The other Norge/Loop owner is contemplating swapping on an (aftermarket) deep sump with external filter and eliminating the oil cooler. That would be an option, but I think retaining the 'cooler would be a good idea. That could be accomplished by using a "sandwich" adapter between the filter and pan (if there's room).




This afternoon I did the measuring mentioned in a previous post and found that the frame rails needed to be spread approx. 5 mm at the front mounting bolt lugs. Once I did that, I had approx. 2 mm clearance between the engine and frame on both sides. I'll be making a crossmember to bolt in place there, I feel it will be necessary to retain what frame rigidity a Loopy has. 

[leroy_can]

 Hi, I'm following this with great interest. I think eliminating an oil cooler is absolutely a no no. Any engine using oil jets to cool the pistons will be taking additional heat into it's oil. Even running a little cooler with carburation vs F.I. won't be enough. I have yet to run my 1400 LMIV but it will have a cooler and I have a Buell XB12S engine in a 71 XLCH frame running a carb.  I only ran a cooler on the Buell engine because the engine was plumbed for it but found it to be essential as even with it the tank is very hot.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Hi, I'm following this with great interest. I think eliminating an oil cooler is absolutely a no no. Any engine using oil jets to cool the pistons will be taking additional heat into it's oil. Even running a little cooler with carburation vs F.I. won't be enough. I have yet to run my 1400 LMIV but it will have a cooler and I have a Buell XB12S engine in a 71 XLCH frame running a carb.  I only ran a cooler on the Buell engine because the engine was plumbed for it but found it to be essential as even with it the tank is very hot.

I agree. An original Norge cooler and hoses are on the way for this project.

I spent a little "thinking time" the other day about a few things.

Exhaust: I need headpipes with a 35 + mm i.d. and 38 mm o.d. I'll likely have Armour Motor Products in the UK make a pair of Loop headpipes, but with the Tonti flange. Convert finned flanges will work to secure the headpipes to the engine. Planning on Mistral mufflers. Playing around with some old (Alphabet?) headpipes I have.








I bobbed a V50 grabrail last year and still have the cut off piece laying around. It has the shape I need for the lower front crossmember, but not the wall thickness or diameter. Good as an idea/pattern though.






The original Loop battery tray is just a stamped sheet metal piece, a little rigidity may be gained by making one from 3/8" thick alloy plate.




The Norge engine has these threaded "lugs" on either side, I'm not sure what attached there. Could add a frame mount here.






And finally, maybe an "A" shaped brace, either tubular or from alloy plate, to tie the engine/trans. to the frame backbone.




At this point all just ideas I had.

[Tom H]

This may be a silly question. For the front engine mount, can't you just use a loop front cover? Get the crank adapter for the loop pulley and run a Fields alternator conversion? Or make a bracket for the existing alternator?

You may need to remove some internal webbing from the loop front cover for it to work with the timing chain.

Tom

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

This may be a silly question. For the front engine mount, can't you just use a loop front cover? Get the crank adapter for the loop pulley and run a Fields alternator conversion? Or make a bracket for the existing alternator?

You may need to remove some internal webbing from the loop front cover for it to work with the timing chain.

Tom

I guess one could use the Loop (preferably late Eldo - already clearance for a chain) timing cover, however:
1) The Norge crankcase breather is built into the timing cover.
2) No adapter would be necessary, use a 22 (Norge crank diameter) x 50 (Loop crank seal o.d.) x 7 seal and the existing Norge crank pulley. The existing adapters wouldn't work since the nose of the Norge crank isn't tapered like the crank of the earlier engines that adapter was made for (Bosch crank-mounted alternator engines).
3) There is no flat area up in the V between the cylinders to mount any existing alternator bracket. Something would need to be created, perhaps like this one:



which could utilize the original Norge Bosch alternator. But, it would need to be slotted on one mounting point for belt tension adjustment (just like the much beefier Norge timing cover already has!)

I'm not sure which is more work: adding mounts to the frame and using the Norge engine as-is, or figuring out a breather port, sourcing the seemingly odd-sized seal (may not be hard, I haven't really looked) and making an alternator mount that allows adjustment and is strong enough. On second thought, I am sure: using the Norge engine as-is! 

[leroy_can]

 Hi, When I see something like this I can't help thinking how I would tackle some of the issues. My brain has locked on the front lower frame spacer/reinforcer. I look at what materials I have on hand and what I can make most easily with my equipment. Recently while  at my local metal supermarket buying other pieces they had 1" x 4" x 3' 6061 slabs on cheap so I took one. Then I looked at what taps I had and there was a 12mmx1.25 perma coil kit. If you like this plan and give me some measurements I could have it in the mail or whatever in a day or 2. I would need the overall width and the location of the oil fittings. The offset is flexible up to the limit of the 4" material width which is way more than enough. You could position the offset up,down , or forward. I can't tell for sure from the pictures if there are obstacles I am missing. Let me know and we will take it from there. There would be no cost to you except possibly shipping if you wanted it sent overnight or something pricey

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Hi, When I see something like this I can't help thinking how I would tackle some of the issues. My brain has locked on the front lower frame spacer/reinforcer. I look at what materials I have on hand and what I can make most easily with my equipment. Recently while  at my local metal supermarket buying other pieces they had 1" x 4" x 3' 6061 slabs on cheap so I took one. Then I looked at what taps I had and there was a 12mmx1.25 perma coil kit. If you like this plan and give me some measurements I could have it in the mail or whatever in a day or 2. I would need the overall width and the location of the oil fittings. The offset is flexible up to the limit of the 4" material width which is way more than enough. You could position the offset up,down , or forward. I can't tell for sure from the pictures if there are obstacles I am missing. Let me know and we will take it from there. There would be no cost to you except possibly shipping if you wanted it sent overnight or something pricey

Wow! Thanks for the generous offer! I'll take you up on it, but it'll be a while before I can give you dimensions. The 1200 Ambo project is off the lift right now so that I can fix a clutch issue on my own V700.

[jacksonracingcomau]

The forks are basically the same as an early Tonti at this point (Convert lowers, dampers and springs) but will be modified somewhat to deal with the extra weight.

Do you use T series yokes ?
I can’t deal with boat anchor original but all Tonti have much narrower steering stop spacing, don’t ’ really want to cut orig frame if I can avoid it.
Thought of grinding off stops on bottom yoke and making bolt on stops attached to clamp bolts but interested if you’ve had better idea.
Mine’s getting forks from Nevada (38mm), keeping single sided drum for now , hope to find 4LS wheel but have disc option if I decide to go that way.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Do you use T series yokes ?

Nope. Loop yokes.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks to "leroy_can", I now have a beautifully machined billet crossmember!  With it in place, there is 2 mm clearance between the engine and frame on both sides - as much or more than an original Loop has.





Fits perfectly.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

This is so great because I have a 1100 Breva that runs great but is getting a little long in the tooth (and its probably worth less than $3000 on the open market)... and a '73 Ambo roller in need of resto... both sitting in my garage right now. Excited to see how this all goes together

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

More things acquired: 850-T rear wheel w/cush drive and 2LS brake, Norge flywheel and clutch assembly. Hopefully a 7/33 rear drive as well. I'll be using a Tonti swingarm for it's larger carrier bearing and u-joint.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

2LS brake

I thought you were doing a CONVERTed disc front end?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I thought you were doing a CONVERTed disc front end?

The 850-T rear wheel has a 2LS brake, the front will be dual disk.

[Tom H]

This new bracket takes care of stiffening up the front frame. Great job!!!!

 How are you going to attach the engine to the frame?

Could this bracket have been extended up to the engine mounts?

Tom

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

This new bracket takes care of stiffening up the front frame. Great job!!!!

 How are you going to attach the engine to the frame?

Could this bracket have been extended up to the engine mounts?

Tom

The engine will be attached to the frame via the original engine mounting points as shown in these photos:





Mounting lugs will be machined and welded into the frame.

There is no room for the crossmember to be extended up to the engine mounting point. When viewed from the front, the engine mount is nearly right up against the frame, there is no room for and will be no need for a spacer. This is how Stephen on the Loopframe Facebook group did his:







I plan on something similar, but connecting that mounting point (which is on the timing cover) to the two on the block itself.